Science or Fiction? Big Sam's mighty fall from relative grace

[WhatTheFunk]

With all the good things that could have come with Big Sam's scientific approach to the game, and it certainly felt like our club could use a more "brainy" approach, it's been obvious to all and sundry that this approach itself has proved to be his downfall.

 

When you surrender to data, statistics, monitors, analysts and computers, you are effectively telling the players that they dont know what they are doing better than the computers do. It also sends out a message to them that the bloke managing them doesn't know what he's doing, and needs the computers to tell him. This approach has robbed our players, and ultimately our then manager of their self belief.

 

Whilst we do have a reasonably decent playing staff, in my view anyway, these players didn't perform to their collective potential due to this reason, and this reason alone. Every one of our players has looked short on belief and self confidence. And for all of Allardyce's motivational skills, they were never going to perform having lost faith in their abilities.

 

Big Sam identified the problem up here, but imo used TOO MUCH of the medicine (the science approach), and too little of the love and spiritual approach, and hence ended up making our players feel more like guinea pigs than football players, digging his own managerial grave in the process.

 

Where do you draw the line?

[NG32]

Good footballers win you matches not computers and science.

 

 

 

[Shearergol]

Good footballers win you matches not computers and science.

 

Spot on. It's why the likes of Duff and Owen were already pissed off with Sam.

[Jackie Broon]

Our playing staff is severely lacking in some vital areas IMO

 

Sam was desperate for us to play a 4-3-3 with a lone striker and two wingers-come-forwards supporting him. But the players he inherited weren’t suited to that, you need an Anelka/Drogba/Carew type striker who is both big/strong and mobile. He didn’t manage to bring that sort of player in, yet still insisted on playing 4-3-3 in many matches.

 

But fundamentally I think our problems boil down to just having too many central midfielders who can’t pass. This has been an issue for years, maybe even since Lee left, but has been exacerbated by Sam’s signings. Butt’s passing is dreadful, as is Barton’s, Geremi’s and Smith’s when played there. Our one central midfielder with some level of technical ability, Emre, was clearly seen as too lightweight by Sam.

 

His demise was down to his signings and selection rather than his sports science approach.

 

[Captain Underpants]

 

Our playing staff is severely lacking in some vital areas IMO

 

Sam was desperate for us to play a 4-3-3 with a lone striker and two wingers-come-forwards supporting him. But the players he inherited werent suited to that, you need an Anelka/Drogba/Carew type striker who is both big/strong and mobile. He didnt manage to bring that sort of player in yet still insisted on playing 4-3-3 in many matches.

 

But fundamentally I think our problems boil down to just having too many central midfielders who cant pass. This has been an issue for years, maybe even since Lee left, but has been exacerbated by Sams signings. Butts passing is dreadful, as is Bartons, Geremis and Smiths when played there. Our one central midfielder with some level of technical ability, Emre, was clearly seen as too lightweight by Sam.

 

His demise was down to his signings and selection rather than his sports science approach.

 

 

 

Geremi was actually considered as a great passer of the ball, allthough his legs are gone. He's to slow, imobile and, well, to old?

Butt's passing is dreadful, and so is Smith. Barton is a good footballer, but a terrible human being. With a little self control and some motivation he could actually be a great asset to this squad. Unfortunately he'll be in jail soon. Emre? Doesn't want to play for us. Maybe with a great manager in, who actually likes the attacking style of play instead of "containing the oppostition"  he could do, but I think he's off soon.

[Jackie Broon]

Barton has a good footballing brain and a knack for being in the right place at the right time (on the pitch anyway ) but his passing has always been a bit wayward.

[Captain Underpants]

Barton has a good footballing brain and a knack for being in the right place at the right time (on the pitch anyway ) but his passing has always been a bit wayward.

 

He's no Fabregas, thats for sure, but still a better passer than both Butt and Smith.

[Jackie Broon]

Well that's not saying much! He's far from good enough to be the creative player in a top half central midfield.

 

 

[womblemaster]

"Good footballers win you matches not computers and science........you mean they should be "proper players"

 

[indi]

Good footballers win you matches not computers and science.

 

Spot on. It's why the likes of Duff and Owen were already pissed off with Sam.

 

Because they've won us loads of matches, haven't they.

[Rob W]

I wonder why he went so suddenly ? 

 

It might be he put his list of "buys" for the window in front of Mort & Co and they just woke up and said "NO WAY!! He's got to go.............."

[NG32]

 

 

 

Because they've won us loads of matches, haven't they

.

 

Get the ball to Owen in the box and he will score goals.  Thats where he does his work.

[WhatTheFunk]

 

 

 

Because they've won us loads of matches, haven't they

.

 

Get the ball to Owen in the box and he will score goals.  Thats where he does his work.

 

I remember John Beresford talking in an interview long ago (during his playing days at Newcastle) about Keegan's approach to the game. The main strength our team of entertainers exhibited at the time was off the ball movement. Beresford then said that Keegan always insisted that they make sure there are always 3 options available to the ball carrier to pass to. This required the players to be constantly moving into space, regardless of their positions on the pitch.

 

That's what made us a real force in football at the time, and that's what makes Man Utd and Arsenal what they are. Simple really when you think about it. You're correct in saying that Owen would score shedloads, were he to play in such a team.

[NG32]

I remember John Beresford talking in an interview long ago (during his playing days at Newcastle) about Keegan's approach to the game. The main strength our team of entertainers exhibited at the time was off the ball movement. Beresford then said that Keegan always insisted that they make sure there are always 3 options available to the ball carrier to pass to. This required the players to be constantly moving into space, regardless of their positions on the pitch.

 

That's what made us a real force in football at the time, and that's what makes Man Utd and Arsenal what they are. Simple really when you think about it. You're correct in saying that Owen would score shedloads, were he to play in such a team.

 

Indeed movement is key. 

 

 

Sadly we have not had that the last few years despite having a few players who can exploit space etc.

[indi]

So what your actually saying isn't that good players win matches but a combination of good players, good tactics, a good team and good training wins matches. Not quite the same thing really, is it.

[bulivye]

for me, the post mortem on big sam is that he tried to implement his system in stages, with the first stage being to use all the science & gadgets & analysis.  in the mean time, he signed players he felt would keep us from relegation by hustle & graft and would prosper, or at least survive under his fitness regimen.  this forced him to take the flair out of his tactics & team sheet.  unfortunately, it appears this was to be the plan for an entire season which, was never going to be tolerated by the toon army, myself very much included in that.  anyway, if he had survived, i think the next stage would've been to bring in players with technique & guile and have them adjust to the culture of the fitness programme and work ethic he hoped to have established.  then on to win the league, etc!   

 

of course this doesn't explain the playing of players out of position... 

[Guest jimmy1982]

 

 

 

Because they've won us loads of matches, haven't they

.

 

Get the ball to Owen in the box and he will score goals.  Thats where he does his work.

 

I remember John Beresford talking in an interview long ago (during his playing days at Newcastle) about Keegan's approach to the game. The main strength our team of entertainers exhibited at the time was off the ball movement. Beresford then said that Keegan always insisted that they make sure there are always 3 options available to the ball carrier to pass to. This required the players to be constantly moving into space, regardless of their positions on the pitch.

 

That's what made us a real force in football at the time, and that's what makes Man Utd and Arsenal what they are. Simple really when you think about it. You're correct in saying that Owen would score shedloads, were he to play in such a team.

 

Yep, off the ball movement is what it's all about. It seems ridiculous that professional teams sometimes can't give 3 options to the man with the ball, cos that is what everybody is told pretty much as soon as you start playing for a boys club team when you're a bairn, straight after the old "six rules of passing: accuracy accuracy accuracy accuracy accuracy and accuracy" chestnut!

 

It makes everything miles and miles easier and simpler if you've just got people willing to bust a gut to get into good positions and make space. It reduces the game to easy 10-15-20 yards passes, and before you know it you're on the edge of the opposition area, ready to do some damage. Our 92-93 team was the absolute paradigm of this. I know football has changed since then and I must admit when Sam signed I thought he was a good appointment as he would modernise our training methods after the old school approaches or Souness and Roeder, but the performances were suggesting he might have been taking all this computer and heart monitoring stuff too far and neglecting the basic football things. From watching Man U and Arsenal you just know that the most important things by miles for Fergie and Wenger are touch, movement, passing, and things such as fitness and conditioning are just necessary add-ons that you need to be successful.

 

Funnily enough I thought Sam's last two matches, against City and Stoke, showed evidence that he'd sent them out to pass the ball on the deck and try to play proper football. Maybe the penny had started to drop, but there were two problems - firstly we didn't have the personel to successfully pass through a decent team like Man City (or even a Championship side like Stoke), especially with Smith in centre mid, and secondly you can't expect players to start playing in a different style just like that, after you've been training and playing another way for 6-7 months. Maybe if Sam had been concentrating on the footballing basics a bit more from the start we (and Ashley) would have seen a consistent improvement over half a season.

 

For the record I think one of the main reasons Sam wasn't successful here (aside from Ashley buying the club out) was Joey Barton getting injured in pre-season, and he can count himself unlucky on that score, but you could also say that a good manager should still be able to make a better fist of it even when he loses his most influential player (as I think Sam hoped Barton would be). I don't think he should have been sacked, especially now that it's turned out that our first choice replacement was cockney Redknapp.

 

 

[Guest sittingontheball]

If Geremi's legs had indeed gone as SBR reckons The Special One said, you would think that this would have shown up in the stats for ground covered etc. If not, what is the point of the stats if they don't even point out a lemon?  As an aside, I reckon Allardyce bought Barton partly to show the world what a great man-manager he is. I, big Sam, did it with Diouf, now I'll do it with Barton. Lets face it, other teams weren't exactly queuing up.

 

I don't know what fitness and conditioning Allardyce did, but we conceded three in the last five minutes on Saturday.