Fans to blame? F*ck off!

[fredbob]

 

And my major point about your major point was that Ashley's was NOT a "good, much needed long-term plan" - because his plan was to let Dennis Wise overrule our manager on transfers.

 

 

Which shows you choose to beleive the first of my 2 scenarios that i gave - whereas im probably a disciple of the second.

 

You have just as much evidence as i do regarding what actually went on at the club - yet you have blindly backed one man deifintitely over the other with absolutely no knowledge of the truth. I have probably chosen to back the other man becasue i believed in what he had planned for the club and i saw that as being more important than the whims of a manager who's managerial record doesnt warrant such blind faith.

 

You have chosen to back a manager purely and simply becasue of something he achieved 15 years ago for the club, and you believe that that is more imporant for the club in the long run.

 

The difference between our beliefs is that one has already dramatically changed the future of the club for no good reason and the other hasnt.

 

 

 

 

 

I am not backing KK purely and simply because of events of 15 years ago, I'm backing him because all the evidence (including some fed to national Sunday papers by Ashley's camp a week or two into this saga) is that Keegan didn't get players he was promised in the final days of the window, and was landed with Gonzalez and Xisco instead.

 

Your final paragraph is just gibberish.

 

 

 

 

 

Sunday papers? Each paper has its own view and version of the events.

 

And if you say he didnt get the players he was promised - do you know the circumstances if which the players didnt join? Or are you assuming that Wise didnt fancy them and therefore didnt even bother going for them?

 

Im not, my basis of belief is not becasue x undrmined y, or y stabbed z in the back, its that i value the long term plan which Ashley seemed to be pitching over any individual at the club. Supposing, things did go smoother - we could have had Deschamps, we could have had Terim we could even have had Zico by now, would that of been such a resounding disaster?

 

To me, no.

 

If Ashley allowed his director of football to overrule Deschamps, Terim or Zico on transfers, it would be a disaster, yes.

 

 

So no decent retort then? Nice one.

 

WTF? I am challenging the validity of Ashley's long-term plan. That's my retort. Where's yours?

 

How is that a retort? All you've done is made an assumption and stated it as though its a feature of the structure and is part of the plan, which is quite fankly rubbish.

 

Question for you - can you tell me the exact circumstances of Keegans departure steering clear of hear'say and what you read in the papers? Where did Wise undermine him? Why? How has he undermined him? etc... Do you have first hand view of the events??

 

 

 

Clearly (and I'm not referring to your tenuous grasp of grammar and spelling here) you don't know the meaning of the word retort.

That aside, yes, I am making assumptions. An assumption based on the evidence as I see it - EXACTLY as you are doing re Ashley's supposed "masterplan". An interpretation of the evidence which is, quite fankly, rubbish.

 

 

 

Haha, you pendantic sad b****** - thats the second/third person today who's pointed out poor english - whoopy-f***ing-doo, poor english on an internet message board - how wrong are my priorities, i best ring my mum and dad up and tell them they did a bad job.

 

You still dont get it do you - you have a go at me for poor english (yes it did hit a sore point) and yet you fail to see the massive gap in your logic - ie the level of protests were justified based purely on assumptions from inconsistent evidence written in the newspapers, do you actually know the full circumstance in which Keegan didnt get the players he was promised or are you assuming that Wise wasnt interested from the start and had no intention of purchasing them? Thats the stick you're beating them with and you dont even know if its 100% true.

 

My "assumptions" on Ashleys masterplan was that he was looking to invest in younger players from all around the globe for smaller wages with the aim of making them stars for the club, reducing the clubs inflated wage bills whilst not compromising the qulaity. I fail to see why that is an assumption? i dont need evididence - it WAS the way the club wanted to go - how you can deny that is beyond me.

 

 

Firstly, re your English, boo fuckin' hoo. If you challenge someone on semantics (eg the meaning of "retort"), you're asking for trouble.

Secondly, what were fans left to do other than make assumptions? Not a word came from Ashley and co to counter the obvious interpretation: that Keegan walked having been sold short by the board (Wise, Jimenez, whoever).

The main difference between us is that I acknowledge I am making assumptions, whereas you somehow don't see that YOU are making an assumption in believing that Ashley's masterplan did NOT include the fundamental, fatal flaw of authorising his part-time director of football to overrule his manager on transfers.

 

 

Dear me - that is a train crash of a post.

 

You think forcing the owner out is a reasonable response armed with nothing but assumptions? How can i argue with that logic?

 

But your missing the point again - i'm not the one protesting in the masses about my point becasue of exactly the point you mention it was an assumption - i dont know the full circumstances or facts, all i know is that Ashleys alleged system and transfer policy was one i was willing to give a chance. i dont feel that my actions based on these assumptions have lead to the owner wanting to sell....do you see my point yet??

 

 

p.s where did i challenge you on the meaning of retort? All i said was that your response wasnt a very good one becasue it dealt purely in speculation.

[Guest f***thepress]

HTT s right...the rest of you can fuck off ...

[Guest Darth Toon]

Supposing, things did go smoother - we could have had Deschamps, we could have had Terim we could even have had Zico by now, would that of been such a resounding disaster?

 

To me, no.

 

The problem I see with that is, if the fans hadn't protested we wouldn't have had Zico, Terim or Deschamps, we would have had Gus Poyet.

 

He was clearly Wise's first choiice, and it's suggested he was even offered it, and turned it down mainly because of the feared adverse fan reaction.

 

Ok, we're a mess now, but if the alternative is KK gone without a whimper, Ashley still firmly in place with his break-even transfer policy, Dennis stronger than ever because his mate Gus is our manager then I think I'll happily take the short term pain if it gets us a happier longer term solution.

 

The way the fans stood up to be counted en masse over this makes me proud to be a Geordie.

[UV]

You think forcing the owner out is a reasonable response armed with nothing but assumptions? How can i argue with that logic?

 

Forced out my arse.

 

For over a year he received nothing but gushing praise for everything he or any of his appointments did (or in the vast majority of cases simply for the things they didn't do, or were only perceived to have done) by the vast majority of supporters. This was based initially on nothing more than his own claims of club salvation by paying off a debt which became due once he bought the club (which was coincidentally in his own best interests to do), and some pie in the sky notion of becoming the next Arsenal by trying out a managerial structure Arsenal don't employ, spending zero money on transfers, and basically hoping Dennis Wise will be the next Arsene Wenger. Then from January people bought more heavily into the sham because he brought onboard someone the fans trusted, someone who we knew would put the best interests of the club (not the business) first and foremost. Some people bought into it for 3 years up front.

 

How do you expect people to react when that person then walks out after half a year at a potential financial loss to himself and knowing very well he'll be called a quitter? Just shrug and say oh well, it's obviously the fault of this person who we trust, not someone who we put blind faith in but has yet to deliver anything tangible at all, the system is what's important, bring on Gus? Of course people are going to get on SSN with banners, of course people are going protest, or course angry words are going to be spoken and written. But has there been any violence? Has there been any vandalism? Has there been any real trouble at all? No.

 

Yet what does Ashley do at the very first spot of a complaint at his ownership? Does he even try to explain himself and win the supporters back? Does he f***. Completely out of character he gives up straight away. He cries about how big a footy fan he is even though noone knows who he supports, how he's just an ordinary bloke who wanted a bit of fun, and think of the children!!! He was going to plough loads of money into the team year after year honest he was... if only he'd be given the chance... but now sadly he's been forced into giving up his dream and will now have to sell up - well only if he can make a couple of hundred million pounds profit in just over a year like, that's only fair isn't, after all he's dramatically turned round the fortunes of the club by paying off some of a bank loan hasn't he.

 

Wake up and smell the roses. Just like the people who believe they're actually buying something at 70% off, just like the people who rush to the never ending closing down sale, just like the people who bought Sports Direct shares when it floated. You've been had.

[ChezGiven]

You think forcing the owner out is a reasonable response armed with nothing but assumptions? How can i argue with that logic?

 

Forced out my arse.

 

[Dave]

You think forcing the owner out is a reasonable response armed with nothing but assumptions? How can i argue with that logic?

 

Forced out my arse.

 

For over a year he received nothing but gushing praise for everything he or any of his appointments did (or in the vast majority of cases simply for the things they didn't do, or were only perceived to have done) by the vast majority of supporters. This was based initially on nothing more than his own claims of club salvation by paying off a debt which became due once he bought the club (which was coincidentally in his own best interests to do), and some pie in the sky notion of becoming the next Arsenal by trying out a managerial structure Arsenal don't employ, spending zero money on transfers, and basically hoping Dennis Wise will be the next Arsene Wenger. Then from January people bought more heavily into the sham because he brought onboard someone the fans trusted, someone who we knew would put the best interests of the club (not the business) first and foremost. Some people bought into it for 3 years up front.

 

How do you expect people to react when that person then walks out after half a year at a potential financial loss to himself and knowing very well he'll be called a quitter? Just shrug and say oh well, it's obviously the fault of this person who we trust, not someone who we put blind faith in but has yet to deliver anything tangible at all, the system is what's important, bring on Gus? Of course people are going to get on SSN with banners, of course people are going protest, or course angry words are going to be spoken and written. But has there been any violence? Has there been any vandalism? Has there been any real trouble at all? No.

 

Yet what does Ashley do at the very first spot of a complaint at his ownership? Does he even try to explain himself and win the supporters back? Does he f***. Completely out of character he gives up straight away. He cries about how big a footy fan he is even though noone knows who he supports, how he's just an ordinary bloke who wanted a bit of fun, and think of the children!!! He was going to plough loads of money into the team year after year honest he was... if only he'd be given the chance... but now sadly he's been forced into giving up his dream and will now have to sell up - well only if he can make a couple of hundred million pounds profit in just over a year like, that's only fair isn't, after all he's dramatically turned round the fortunes of the club by paying off some of a bank loan hasn't he.

 

Wake up and smell the roses. Just like the people who believe they're actually buying something at 70% off, just like the people who rush to the never ending closing down sale, just like the people who bought Sports Direct shares when it floated, you've been had.

 

Finding it difficult to disagree with you. I don't mind admitting I feel like I've been cheated; I gave Ashley benefit of all doubt as you know, and it's backfired spectacularly.

[UV]

You think forcing the owner out is a reasonable response armed with nothing but assumptions? How can i argue with that logic?

 

Forced out my arse.

 

 

Purely unintentional. Not meaning to imply he's a big shit at all.

[OzzieMandias]

Like most of his posts.

[magorific]

You think forcing the owner out is a reasonable response armed with nothing but assumptions? How can i argue with that logic?

 

Forced out my arse.

 

For over a year he received nothing but gushing praise for everything he or any of his appointments did (or in the vast majority of cases simply for the things they didn't do, or were only perceived to have done) by the vast majority of supporters. This was based initially on nothing more than his own claims of club salvation by paying off a debt which became due once he bought the club (which was coincidentally in his own best interests to do), and some pie in the sky notion of becoming the next Arsenal by trying out a managerial structure Arsenal don't employ, spending zero money on transfers, and basically hoping Dennis Wise will be the next Arsene Wenger. Then from January people bought more heavily into the sham because he brought onboard someone the fans trusted, someone who we knew would put the best interests of the club (not the business) first and foremost. Some people bought into it for 3 years up front.

 

How do you expect people to react when that person then walks out after half a year at a potential financial loss to himself and knowing very well he'll be called a quitter? Just shrug and say oh well, it's obviously the fault of this person who we trust, not someone who we put blind faith in but has yet to deliver anything tangible at all, the system is what's important, bring on Gus? Of course people are going to get on SSN with banners, of course people are going protest, or course angry words are going to be spoken and written. But has there been any violence? Has there been any vandalism? Has there been any real trouble at all? No.

 

Yet what does Ashley do at the very first spot of a complaint at his ownership? Does he even try to explain himself and win the supporters back? Does he f***. Completely out of character he gives up straight away. He cries about how big a footy fan he is even though noone knows who he supports, how he's just an ordinary bloke who wanted a bit of fun, and think of the children!!! He was going to plough loads of money into the team year after year honest he was... if only he'd be given the chance... but now sadly he's been forced into giving up his dream and will now have to sell up - well only if he can make a couple of hundred million pounds profit in just over a year like, that's only fair isn't, after all he's dramatically turned round the fortunes of the club by paying off some of a bank loan hasn't he.

 

Wake up and smell the roses. Just like the people who believe they're actually buying something at 70% off, just like the people who rush to the never ending closing down sale, just like the people who bought Sports Direct shares when it floated. You've been had.

 

Harsh but absolutely fair.

[Guest elbee909]

You think forcing the owner out is a reasonable response armed with nothing but assumptions? How can i argue with that logic?

 

Forced out my arse.

 

For over a year he received nothing but gushing praise for everything he or any of his appointments did (or in the vast majority of cases simply for the things they didn't do, or were only perceived to have done) by the vast majority of supporters. This was based initially on nothing more than his own claims of club salvation by paying off a debt which became due once he bought the club (which was coincidentally in his own best interests to do), and some pie in the sky notion of becoming the next Arsenal by trying out a managerial structure Arsenal don't employ, spending zero money on transfers, and basically hoping Dennis Wise will be the next Arsene Wenger. Then from January people bought more heavily into the sham because he brought onboard someone the fans trusted, someone who we knew would put the best interests of the club (not the business) first and foremost. Some people bought into it for 3 years up front.

 

How do you expect people to react when that person then walks out after half a year at a potential financial loss to himself and knowing very well he'll be called a quitter? Just shrug and say oh well, it's obviously the fault of this person who we trust, not someone who we put blind faith in but has yet to deliver anything tangible at all, the system is what's important, bring on Gus? Of course people are going to get on SSN with banners, of course people are going protest, or course angry words are going to be spoken and written. But has there been any violence? Has there been any vandalism? Has there been any real trouble at all? No.

 

Yet what does Ashley do at the very first spot of a complaint at his ownership? Does he even try to explain himself and win the supporters back? Does he f***. Completely out of character he gives up straight away. He cries about how big a footy fan he is even though noone knows who he supports, how he's just an ordinary bloke who wanted a bit of fun, and think of the children!!! He was going to plough loads of money into the team year after year honest he was... if only he'd be given the chance... but now sadly he's been forced into giving up his dream and will now have to sell up - well only if he can make a couple of hundred million pounds profit in just over a year like, that's only fair isn't, after all he's dramatically turned round the fortunes of the club by paying off some of a bank loan hasn't he.

 

Wake up and smell the roses. Just like the people who believe they're actually buying something at 70% off, just like the people who rush to the never ending closing down sale, just like the people who bought Sports Direct shares when it floated, you've been had.

 

Finding it difficult to disagree with you. I don't mind admitting I feel like I've been cheated; I gave Ashley benefit of all doubt as you know, and it's backfired spectacularly.

 

I hope we're all glad we got what we wished for.  Etc.

[fredbob]

Supposing, things did go smoother - we could have had Deschamps, we could have had Terim we could even have had Zico by now, would that of been such a resounding disaster?

 

To me, no.

 

The problem I see with that is, if the fans hadn't protested we wouldn't have had Zico, Terim or Deschamps, we would have had Gus Poyet.

 

He was clearly Wise's first choiice, and it's suggested he was even offered it, and turned it down mainly because of the feared adverse fan reaction.

 

Ok, we're a mess now, but if the alternative is KK gone without a whimper, Ashley still firmly in place with his break-even transfer policy, Dennis stronger than ever because his mate Gus is our manager then I think I'll happily take the short term pain if it gets us a happier longer term solution.

 

The way the fans stood up to be counted en masse over this makes me proud to be a Geordie.

 

Fair point! In fact one that i actually think stands up to anything else written in the thread.

 

however to counter that - there is no suggestion that Poyet would of been a bad manager and if he was willing to work within that structure and work within the policy the club had specified i still see no resounding reason why the system would fail. This system relies purely on the managers skill to coach and motivate his players, it doesnt rely on the managers skill to run the entire club top to bottom, or even his ability to spot players.

 

Supposing Poyet was able to work closely with Wise and equally agree on targets - thats is the one major issue hindering the club sorted, the next would be his skill as a coach. There is still no resounding evidence that this system would fail with a manager who could work within its restraint - hence why i beleive it was premature to try and force him out.

 

I have absolutley no problems with people protesting, or voicing there concerns, i have no problem with people being unhappy at Ashley but i think the active nature of tryin to force the owner out off the back of one MAJOR mistake which could easily be rectified is far too much. Especially with what i beleive he has done for the club, irrespective if he gets the debt repayment back in his asking price. We are in a helathier situation as club now then we were before he took over. Simple.

 

[fredbob]

You think forcing the owner out is a reasonable response armed with nothing but assumptions? How can i argue with that logic?

 

Forced out my arse.

 

For over a year he received nothing but gushing praise for everything he or any of his appointments did (or in the vast majority of cases simply for the things they didn't do, or were only perceived to have done) by the vast majority of supporters. This was based initially on nothing more than his own claims of club salvation by paying off a debt which became due once he bought the club (which was coincidentally in his own best interests to do), and some pie in the sky notion of becoming the next Arsenal by trying out a managerial structure Arsenal don't employ, spending zero money on transfers, and basically hoping Dennis Wise will be the next Arsene Wenger. Then from January people bought more heavily into the sham because he brought onboard someone the fans trusted, someone who we knew would put the best interests of the club (not the business) first and foremost. Some people bought into it for 3 years up front.

 

How do you expect people to react when that person then walks out after half a year at a potential financial loss to himself and knowing very well he'll be called a quitter? Just shrug and say oh well, it's obviously the fault of this person who we trust, not someone who we put blind faith in but has yet to deliver anything tangible at all, the system is what's important, bring on Gus? Of course people are going to get on SSN with banners, of course people are going protest, or course angry words are going to be spoken and written. But has there been any violence? Has there been any vandalism? Has there been any real trouble at all? No.

 

Yet what does Ashley do at the very first spot of a complaint at his ownership? Does he even try to explain himself and win the supporters back? Does he f***. Completely out of character he gives up straight away. He cries about how big a footy fan he is even though noone knows who he supports, how he's just an ordinary bloke who wanted a bit of fun, and think of the children!!! He was going to plough loads of money into the team year after year honest he was... if only he'd be given the chance... but now sadly he's been forced into giving up his dream and will now have to sell up - well only if he can make a couple of hundred million pounds profit in just over a year like, that's only fair isn't, after all he's dramatically turned round the fortunes of the club by paying off some of a bank loan hasn't he.

 

Wake up and smell the roses. Just like the people who believe they're actually buying something at 70% off, just like the people who rush to the never ending closing down sale, just like the people who bought Sports Direct shares when it floated. You've been had.

 

I dont understand why he wouldnt of sold at the first oppurtunity is he was such a charlatan? Why would he pay off the excess debts (ie the debts he didnt have to pay off, it would of made very lttle difference to the price of the club) what do you think he could of done with the club with an extra £50m sitting in his back pocket? If his policy all along was to have break even why bid £16m on modric? Who could he have sold in our squad to make that money back. Its pretty widly accpeted that he's rebuffed a fair few offers including ADUG mabye even DIC, why should it all be part of the masterplan right now? If anything the protests would of made the club more univestable. It all doesnt add up if you genuinely beleive this was some shrewd masterplan even the most cynical of people couldnt make that jigsaw fit.

 

The thing is is that physical violence has been threatened upon him - a lookalike even got attacked, not a coincidence but a testament to the belief he felt he was in danger, try not to underplay that fact becasue it proves that it is a distinct reality - which is abhorrent in my opinion.

 

I have stated many times - i haveabsolutely no issues with a sensible level of protests - voicing there concerns, waving handerkerchiefs, whatever action that would protray unhappiness at the way things are going - but be honest - the only result that 50k+ wanted was ashley leaving so how can it be described as anything but trying to force hi out is beyond me, esecially as they were armend with little evidence of the true events.