Football - it is a simple game - time to get back to basics Glenn

[Guest Knightrider]

One of the biggest things to come out of last night's match for some it would seem is that tactically we were inept while AZ weren't, and therefore why we didn't make the hat for today's Quarter-Final draw. And given the post-match references to van Gaal's tactical acumen over Roeder's it would appear all we now need to put right this ship is to replace Roeder with someone who has a decent grasp of tactics.

 

Well I disagree! Of course having a manager who is tactically sound would be a start, but with this crop of players I don't think such a man would be able to make much more of a difference to be honest. Under three different managers now, Bramble for example still hasn't gotten to grips with the off-side rule, while Shay still hasn't realised the total futility of kicking balls up in the air for our cock-height players to make use of, and our set-piece takers still haven't grasped the importance of missing out the first man - among many many other irritants.

 

In short our players are thick as pig shit and unable to grasp any form of tactical instruction beyond the basics for whatever reason, probably backward conditioning and a mixture of too much change at United, whether it be managerial and coaching changes, or being partnered by different players one week to the next.

 

We lost last night not because we were undone by AZ's tactics, but by our own. We tried to win a game tactically, which we neither have the players nor experience to do.

 

For all the envious glances towards van Gaal, he didn't pull of a tactical master stroke to beat us, his team just played like they always do and while Roeder will be smarting from being embarrased by the "Dutch master", I hope he learns the most important lesson van Gaal taught him last night; play to your strengths, don't ask things of your players they can't do or don't understand.

 

Roeder sent out a Newcastle team with a makeshift defence, an inexperienced defence that has leaked goals all season, to keep a clean sheet. The antithesis of playing to your strengths - which where we are concerned, is attack, as superbly demonstrated in the first leg as we tore AZ apart.

 

Contrast the performance and result, this was a different team. The one that won 4-2 was sent out to play to their strengths, with no real tactical instructions, and for once, the team played superbly when going forward, as if the shackles had been released.

 

All season long Roeder has tried to win too many games tactically, and while I personally won't knock him for that because by god it is a damned sight more than how Souness tried to achieve results and on Roeder's behalf it at leasts shows he is willing to master new things, experiment and to try and compete with your tacticians of this world... your van Gaals for example, it isn't helping us whatsoever.

 

I get the impression Roeder is a very conscientious person, self concious in the extreme, and fully aware that he wasn't anywhere near the top of any fans list, despite what Freddy Shepherd would have us believe (aye right). He knows we craved a tactical genius, someone with some savvy, and I personally think he has tried too hard to try and become our Wenger, or our van Gaal, two managers he envies and whose methods he is more than star struck by. This coupled with his urgency to make up for what has been a nothing career as a manager despite a promising start (an England coach under Glenn Hoddle), by reinventing himself, has cost him big time.

 

Again I won't knock him for wanting to reinvent himself, but he needs a reality check and needs to accept his limitations and more importantly, the players'. The only three players with a resemblance of a football brain in our team is Nobby, Butt and Parker, who you know will be able to understand any kind of tactical game plan or instruction, if not able to complete these things in practice fully (certainly for Butt and Parker, Nobby has an excellent footballing brain and technique to match). The rest are a mixture of Brambles and inexperience though.

 

I've been coaching my 8 year-old nephew since the summer, and do you know what he turned around and said to me a few weeks back? "You're giving me too many instructions" I.e. asking things of him he can't do or doesn't understand, which is what Roeder has been doing since the summer, as evidenced with Parker for example - asking him to be our Steven Gerrard when he's a DCM or nothing.

 

Roeder needs to stop trying to mould the players into something they aren't and never will be, and he himself needs to stop trying to be something he isn't. He and we need to get back to basics, to get the team performing to its strengths, which is high tempo, lots of work-rate and using the pace and trickery of Martins and Dyer, like we did in the first leg against AZ, like he did when he took over from Souness, which brought about the results that lead to his appointment.

 

Yes he's an average manager and tactically clueless (good on him for trying mind) but all isn't lost under him, we've had an awful season yet are 6 points off 6th. Is Moyes a tactical genius? Is Jol? No, what we complain about on here like inconsistent performances, weird subsitutions, playing faves, shooting ourselves in the foot and such, they complain about on their forums, but the difference with Moyes et al is they play to their strengths, they have a game plan the players know and understand, a style they are comfortable with, and we don't.

 

Change that and I see no reason why we can't finish in the top 6 next season, I mean we are only 6 points off that position today, despite an awful season. Last week we beat AZ 4-2 by playing to our strengths, we drew 2-2 with Man Utd at home and beat Liverpool by playing to our strengths, great wins or performances, so we have it in us and so does Roeder.

 

Alas all will be lost for him if he doesn't learn the lesson van Gaal taught him last night however, he's already at that crossroads. Whether he can or not remains to be seen. I personally hope he can, last thing this clubs needs is another merry-go-round 

[Matty_Lash]

Agreed about moulding players into what they are not. Of course you can teach them things when they are learning but the simple matter is that the majority of footballers arent exactly the brightest lads so overloading them with instructions is just going to confuse them. At the end of the day football is not a difficult game, you win your tackles, you complete your passes, you concentrate, you take your chances!

It is only the very very good players who you can make a difference with clever ideas. eg gerrard can play out of position because he has the footballing brain able to do it. Nobby likewise. Half the players in our team arent good enough for their normal positions let alone playing them out of position

[Guest Magic]

I agree on some points and disagree on others. Roeder is definitely not good tactically and he probably does try and overthink things. But to completely blame the players for the way they play is not right. The manager's job is to shape the way they play.

 

What I think we're lacking is the right positive, attacking attitude. I know we can slag all our guys off for being rubbish, but we do have some good, attacking players, I really believe that. We have had a lot of injuries granted, but at the same time we've still generally had a midfield with strong players in, but we haven't used it all season because we've been too busy hitting it long to Sib.

 

Our constant ineptitude (how many games have we actually played well in for more than 30 mins this season?) is not just us being outclassed by superior teams without our severe injury problems. We played exactly the same one-dimensional, long ball football against Latvian and Estonian part-timers, and even against Watford.

 

I work with autistic people. It's my job to try and teach them new skills and improve the ones they have. Many of them understand very little of what I say, most of the are very learning disabled and also just don't understand why they should make the effort to learn these new skills, they have no motivation whatsoever. But if you know how to do your job, with the right approach, patience and consistency you can make remarkable progress. To suggest that Given just doesn't have the tactical nouse to understand why he shouldn't kick long all the time is completely false.

 

Shay Given is not so stupid that he can't understand that he should stop hoofing it long every time he gets the ball. Bramble is not so stupid that he can't understand that he should stay on his feet unless it's a last ditch situation. Martins can learn to get to the near post and to run diagonally across defenders when we counter attack. The team can be taught to actually move when we have the ball instead of just standing stock still. This all comes on the training field. Consistency every day from the coaches and a constant commitment to do this. It's not as hard to do as it's made out. If Given keeps hoofing it long all the time substitute him at half time. Once or twice and he'll soon stop doing it. Seriously, problem solved. You've just got to have the confidence to do it. To accept a player's weaknesses as 'that's just the type of player they are' is completely wrong and an excuse for lazyness (in my experience it's always a far easier option working on skills people are already good at).

 

Look at Arsenal. When they win the ball players stream forward, they look dangerous, they move fluidly. This isn't just because Wenger buys players with supreme tactical and mental ability, this comes from thousands of hours of players doing this on the training ground every day. The attitude that this is how we're going to play. I realise that it takes time to stamp your attitude on a club, but in over a year I have seen no evidence at all that such a stamp is gradually being applied on Newcastle. We continue to play this constant long ball s***. We can play well. We can play good passing football. But we don't. This isn't just players being stupid, this is due to poor coaching and cautious coaching. This needs to change.

 

As much as Roeder goes on about 'I've had a brain tumour I don't fear anything now' he's consistently shown a cautious, timid approach, not just here but throughout his career. If we were to equalise in a game with 8 mins left Roeder is not the sort to change his team to push on for a winner. He's too afraid of defeat, just like Souness. A lot of results have flattered us this season, we've been rubbish. We haven't gone down fighting, we've gone down desperately clinging on. Things need to change.

[madras]

technically inept as much as tactically.

[tmonkey]

Theres just no point bothering without a good manager. We arent going to sign 10 world class players with 10 good calibre backup ones, therefore we need to get a manager in who has his own ideologies, systems, and coaching methods, a manager capable of tactically organising and drilling a team into being a good side.

 

Its this manager who needs to reshape the squad, its this manager who needs to be given the funding. Theres no point shipping out the likes of Bramble, Carr, Luque, etc, and letting a manager like Glenn Roeder sign the replacements. If Roeder isnt good enough in the first place, then hes not going to sign the right players, because he doesnt have a good enough plan, a good enough system to incorporate. And as mentioned, the only alternative to move forward if hes not capable of coaching and building a good side, is to buy an entire team of top class players, which is impossible for us.

 

I think that is essentially what Roeder has tried his best to do, and the reason why he has failed with us. Hes waited in the transfer market for the guaranteed performers options only, the Wayne Bridges. He doesnt have a plan to which he can fit his targets around like Benitez or Jol have, hes just going for the best he can land. Thats why in the summer he was looking to sign one striker and had two choices - Kuyt and Martins. Both strikers are completely and utterly different to each other, so why was Roeder targetting both when he was looking to sign one? Did he want pace up front? Did he want a hard working player? What did he want? Did he know?

 

Im betting he had no plan for our style of play or system, and he still doesnt. Probably because we dont really have a style of play, or a system. Our style of play is dependant on who is on the pitch - if Dyer and Emre are playing, we give the ball to them and they keep it on the ground. If they arent playing, or are playing shiite, we lump it. If Sibierski is playing, we lump it. We basically look a side with no game plan other than the one the players would naturally choose based on the options open to them.

 

It makes me shudder to read about him supposedly wanting a big target man forward. Has the idiot watch the performances of Martins or Owen in a long ball side? Both players suffer immensely, but put them in a passing side that keeps the ball on the ground and has an ounce of movement, and they come to life. Yet our manager wants to make the worst use out of our best players because he has no strategy, no system that he can incorporate (unless he wants to change us into a long ball team, in which case he needs to fuck off even more). Hes just not that calibre of manager.

 

Put simply, theres no point giving the wrong man more time and money.

[tmonkey]

I agree on some points and disagree on others. Roeder is definitely not good tactically and he probably does try and overthink things. But to completely blame the players for the way they play is not right. The manager's job is to shape the way they play.

 

What I think we're lacking is the right positive, attacking attitude. I know we can slag all our guys off for being rubbish, but we do have some good, attacking players, I really believe that. We have had a lot of injuries granted, but at the same time we've still generally had a midfield with strong players in, but we haven't used it all season because we've been too busy hitting it long to Sib.

 

Our constant ineptitude (how many games have we actually played well in for more than 30 mins this season?) is not just us being outclassed by superior teams without our severe injury problems. We played exactly the same one-dimensional, long ball football against Latvian and Estonian part-timers, and even against Watford.

 

Shay Given is not so stupid that he can't understand that he should stop hoofing it long every time he gets the ball. Bramble is not so stupid that he can't understand that he should stay on his feet unless it's a last ditch situation. Martins can learn to get to the near post and to run diagonally across defenders when we counter attack. The team can be taught to actually move when we have the ball instead of just standing stock still. This all comes on the training field. Consistency every day from the coaches and a constant commitment to do this. It's not as hard to do as it's made out. If Given keeps hoofing it long all the time substitute him at half time. Once or twice and he'll soon stop doing it. Seriously, problem solved. You've just got to have the confidence to do it. To accept a player's weaknesses as 'that's just the type of player they are' is completely wrong and an excuse for lazyness (in my experience it's always a far easier option working on skills people are already good at).

 

Look at Arsenal. When they win the ball players stream forward, they look dangerous, they move fluidly. This isn't just because Wenger buys players with supreme tactical and mental ability, this comes from thousands of hours of players doing this on the training ground every day. The attitude that this is how we're going to play. I realise that it takes time to stamp your attitude on a club, but in over a year I have seen no evidence at all that such a stamp is gradually being applied on Newcastle. We continue to play this constant long ball s***. We can play well. We can play good passing football. But we don't. This isn't just players being stupid, this is due to poor coaching and cautious coaching. This needs to change.

 

As much as Roeder goes on about 'I've had a brain tumour I don't fear anything now' he's consistently shown a cautious, timid approach, not just here but throughout his career. If we were to equalise in a game with 8 mins left Roeder is not the sort to change his team to push on for a winner. He's too afraid of defeat, just like Souness. A lot of results have flattered us this season, we've been rubbish. We haven't gone down fighting, we've gone down desperately clinging on. Things need to change.

 

Post of the week. The bits in bold especially.

 

I remember getting a bit pissed off last season when we lost 3-1 at St James' to Liverpool. Roeder had been caretaker boss for several months iirc, and in that game we were utterly played off the pitch by Roeder, and it had feck all to do with Liverpool having individually better players - it was all to do with the organisation of their team, the movement, the fact that they knew what they were doing and went about their jobs. At the time, I remember moaning how we werent going to get anywhere with Roeder because whilst the Pool players were dominating us with good organisation, movement, and passing, we were just a bog standard static side with a schoolboy-level basic formation and visible instructions of "stick it up them". Absolutely nothing from that team would have suggested good coaching, there was no mark of a decent manager in that team. At the time, there were plenty on here replying that Roeder was only a caretaker and needed time to rebuild the team and that is was unrealistic to expect him to emulate Benitez. Fair enough, at the time that was a valid point, but its now 1 year later, and absolutely nothing has changed. There is no movement or organisation or drilling, nothing. The players look as clueless as their manager. Exactly what is Roeder supposed to be doing then? Why is he in the job if hes not going to bring our standard of play up to those of the clubs that are "supposed" to be our competitors, the Pools and Arsenals (amusing how those clubs were behind us when Shepherd took over), clubs that piss over us in every single way these days?

 

Ah, I forgot. Hes our seat warmer for that 35 year old hero who has "left a massive hole" in our club.

[biggs]

why not just sack the fucker and get a tactical genius in easy peasy

[BottledDog]

After over a decade of managerial failure, your suggestion that he might suddenly wake up and learn new tricks is staggeringly optimistic.

[Guest Invicta_Toon]

why not just sack the fucker and get a tactical genius in easy peasy

 

you wouldn't believe the amount of world class managers that want to come to Newcstle, if it weren't for the fact we never ask them, or offer them enough money, not sure which but you get the point

[Guest thenorthumbrian]

After over a decade of managerial failure, your suggestion that he might suddenly wake up and learn new tricks is staggeringly optimistic.

 

Exactly !

For fucks sake Roeder is just a useless manager, pure a simple.

He has a track record of utter failure.

He can't be made into something he isn't.

Kick him out of Newcastle for good I don't want the useless cockney twat anywhere near my club.

[Guest Invicta_Toon]

After over a decade of managerial failure, your suggestion that he might suddenly wake up and learn new tricks is staggeringly optimistic.

 

Exactly !

For fucks sake Roeder is just a useless manager, pure a simple.

He has a track record of utter failure.

He can't be made into something he isn't.

Kick him out of Newcastle for good I don't want the useless cockney twat anywhere near my club.

 

yet absolutely no-one questions how he ended up here in the first place

[mrmojorisin75]

one thing (i can't remember) being mentioned is the following:

we have no full backs, none, at all, during the whole time roeder has been in charge

we have shedloads of central defenders, got 'em coming out of our a&sehole...

we have have lots of wide players and 2 players who can play defensive midfield

 

why, on gods green earth, have we not played 3-5-2 or 5-3-2 whatever you want to call it?  this isn't even complicated stuff and i'm a 4-4-2 man at heart but at the end of the day a good manager plays a system the players suit not the other way around

 

think about it:

 

----------------taylor-bramble-edgar---------------

------------------parker------butt--------------------

milner-----------------dyer---------------zog-------

------------sib----------------martins----------------

 

we have the options in the squad to cover injuries/suspensions in all/most of those positions and it would offer us more in every department, there's flexibility to change personnel within a basic formula

 

until we can get some actual full backs then we need to go down this route and who knows, the natural width it would provide might mean the squad actually find the confidence to play football.....let's face it could it be worse than what we've seen with strict adherance to 4-4-2

 

[Guest Magic]

He got here because he did well at the end of last season with Shearer (perhaps Big Al really did make a difference. I can certainly see his influence briging a more attacking approach). He got here because there was probably no-one else good who could be persuaded to come. NUFC is probably seen as a bit of a management curse at the moment. He got here because we didn't have much money and he was cheap. He got here because he was someone that wasn't going to demand a lot of control from Shepherd or huge transfer budgets. He got here to keep things ticking over until Shearer is ready to take over, if that happens. He got here because there was a lot of goodwill towards him after his caretaker year, doing well and being a former club captain and all. After the Souness debacle Shepherd needed a popular appointment and in the absence of any top-class managers wanting to come he figured Roeder was probably his best option.

 

 

It's not so much the lack of tactical nouse that bothers me so much (as HTT said, at least he's trying). It's just that I think his whole attitude is wrong. He's too cautious and conservative. That shows in our team's toothless attacking play in my opinion.