Dyer

[nufcjmc]

even the best teams in the world buy players where 100% of there game is perfect. You usually get two types of players the flair type that have the tendency to go missing. The ammount of times I remember screaming for robert to look at the ball when its heading towards his goal and he isnt helping the team to defend. Then there is the battlers no great skill but what they do they do well and will always put a performance in for the team. Now I'm not saying there is no middle ground in these two types but you certainly can see more elements of milners game being the hard worker type, and dyer the flair player who is very good on the ball.

 

If and this is a big if we get rid of Milner I would want it to be for someone who is a massive improvement and as i have said before sinse we have other areas of the squad to strenghten a versitile player that can play on both wings who is only 21 is definetly worth keeping.

[Cajun]

Dyer does go missing a hell of a lot aswell, as said before even when Milner isnt putting in a great performance he still works his arse off and you can tell he is on the pitch at least.

Thought you couldn't be arsed? 

 

I'll agree with most of what tmonkey said by the way. Agree particularly with the bit about stats at the end.

 

tmonkey (as usual) made some good points and knows how to debate, he doesn't resort to "yeah well you called that player we signed 2 years ago a ninja, you watch highlights to rate a player" etc..

[Baggio]

Dyer does go missing a hell of a lot aswell, as said before even when Milner isnt putting in a great performance he still works his arse off and you can tell he is on the pitch at least.

Thought you couldn't be arsed? 

 

I'll agree with most of what tmonkey said by the way. Agree particularly with the bit about stats at the end.

 

tmonkey (as usual) made some good points and knows how to debate, he doesn't resort to "yeah well you called that player we signed 2 years ago a ninja, you watch highlights to rate a player" etc..

 

And this coming from someone who tried to use stats to compare Milner to Giggs!

 

Just have the last word and forget about it.

[Guest Pie]

Dyer does go missing a hell of a lot aswell, as said before even when Milner isnt putting in a great performance he still works his arse off and you can tell he is on the pitch at least.

Thought you couldn't be arsed? 

 

I'll agree with most of what tmonkey said by the way. Agree particularly with the bit about stats at the end.

 

tmonkey (as usual) made some good points and knows how to debate, he doesn't resort to "yeah well you called that player we signed 2 years ago a ninja, you watch highlights to rate a player" etc..

Wasn't aware I had. You sound sulky. Don't be, its nice to see someone with the courage of their convictions. However ill-judged they may be.

[Baggio]

Dyer does go missing a hell of a lot aswell, as said before even when Milner isnt putting in a great performance he still works his arse off and you can tell he is on the pitch at least.

Thought you couldn't be arsed? 

 

I'll agree with most of what tmonkey said by the way. Agree particularly with the bit about stats at the end.

 

tmonkey (as usual) made some good points and knows how to debate, he doesn't resort to "yeah well you called that player we signed 2 years ago a ninja, you watch highlights to rate a player" etc..

Wasn't aware I had. You sound sulky. Don't be, its nice to see someone with the courage of their convictions. However ill-judged they may be.

 

I think he meant me. :'(

[Cajun]

Dyer does go missing a hell of a lot aswell, as said before even when Milner isnt putting in a great performance he still works his arse off and you can tell he is on the pitch at least.

Thought you couldn't be arsed? 

 

I'll agree with most of what tmonkey said by the way. Agree particularly with the bit about stats at the end.

 

tmonkey (as usual) made some good points and knows how to debate, he doesn't resort to "yeah well you called that player we signed 2 years ago a ninja, you watch highlights to rate a player" etc..

 

And this coming from someone who tried to use stats to compare Milner to Giggs!

 

Just have the last word and forget about it.

 

I thought it was quite obvious I wasn't using stats to compare Milner to Giggs. I just showed you how stupid it was to use those stats to slate Milner. The fact that those same stats used in the way you used them showed Milner to be a better player than Giggs when he clearly isn't was the point.

 

You laughed at Milner for the amount of times he had given the ball away when one of the best players in the league had actually failed to complete more passes.

 

If you are going to use stats as a stick to beat a player with its probably best to check out how they compare with other players in the league.

[TRon]

Dyer is better running through defences in the middle of the park not crossing the ball.

 

A significant point this, especially away from home on the counter. I can remember picking up many a point on enemy territory due to the Bellamy/Dyer pace factor during that season we finished 3rd under Robson. No one was waving their stats in the air back then come to think of it.

 

 

[Guest Pie]

Probably best to go to games and use your eyes. I do mean go to games as well. You see what happens off the ball, which is where an enormous amount of Premiership football is played. Telly is handy, but its no substitute as it only gives part of the picture.

Dyer plays as much off the ball as on it, same goes for Craig Bellamy. Those things don't show up too well on stats. It also shows the folly of saying something daft like "if he didnt have pace" Well they do! They use it and have succeeded using it in successive seasons for Newcastle.

Can't abide Bellamy, not keen on Dyer but when they were both on form then they tore teams apart with that weapon. It wasnt always obvious either as they stretched teams from different areas. Much of it was done off the ball. Its one of the reasons Dyer was always told to come deep to take the ball off the centre half by Bobby Robson. It meant he was more ifficult to pick up. Bellamy always tended to swap flanks when he did it. It just made life difficult as it wasnt easy to pick them up - they are way way quicker than much of the Premiership.

Teams were scared of the thing we now dont really possess - pace. For that reason, its worth it. I enjoyed seeing those two together as they worked very well together. Speed, Dyer, Solano, Shearer Bellamy all worked together as they complimented each others strengths and made up for each others weaknesses. The fact that we had the loose cannon on the left didnt hurt either.

At the minute we havent got that interplay, pace or inventiveness (on the level we had then - and please dont tell me that Milner has - or will have - as much ability as Nobby or Robert) anywhere.

[Baggio]

Dyer does go missing a hell of a lot aswell, as said before even when Milner isnt putting in a great performance he still works his arse off and you can tell he is on the pitch at least.

Thought you couldn't be arsed? 

 

I'll agree with most of what tmonkey said by the way. Agree particularly with the bit about stats at the end.

 

tmonkey (as usual) made some good points and knows how to debate, he doesn't resort to "yeah well you called that player we signed 2 years ago a ninja, you watch highlights to rate a player" etc..

 

And this coming from someone who tried to use stats to compare Milner to Giggs!

 

Just have the last word and forget about it.

 

I thought it was quite obvious I wasn't using stats to compare Milner to Giggs. I just showed you how stupid it was to use those stats to slate Milner. The fact that those same stats used in the way you used them showed Milner to be a better player than Giggs when he clearly isn't was the point.

 

You laughed at Milner for the amount of times he had given the ball away when one of the best players in the league had actually failed to complete more passes.

 

If you are going to use stats as a stick to beat a player with its probably best to check out how they compare with other players in the league.

 

Not really, as I've said Giggs' plus points far outweigh his bad one's, he's a far better player than Milner could ever dream of being, as is Joe Cole.

 

Time will tell if I'm right or not, I rarely use stats to prove a point and prefer to comment on what I've seen with my own 2 eyes, I'll tell you now Milner will never play a competitive match for England because he's just not good enough, the lad is average and if we want to be better then we need to move away from grafters like him and on to technically superior players with more atheleticism, Pie's comment about Lee Clark was spot on, he was a better player than Milner but not good enough for us.

[Cajun]

We will see. I have a lot of faith in the lad, you guys don't.

 

Thats what a forum is about though really, would be pretty boring if we all thought everyone was great.

[TRon]

Probably best to go to games and use your eyes. I do mean go to games as well. You see what happens off the ball, which is where an enormous amount of Premiership football is played. Telly is handy, but its no substitute as it only gives part of the picture.

Dyer plays as much off the ball as on it, same goes for Craig Bellamy. Those things don't show up too well on stats. It also shows the folly of saying something daft like "if he didnt have pace" Well they do! They use it and have succeeded using it in successive seasons for Newcastle.

Can't abide Bellamy, not keen on Dyer but when they were both on form then they tore teams apart with that weapon. It wasnt always obvious either as they stretched teams from different areas. Much of it was done off the ball. Its one of the reasons Dyer was always told to come deep to take the ball off the centre half by Bobby Robson. It meant he was more ifficult to pick up. Bellamy always tended to swap flanks when he did it. It just made life difficult as it wasnt easy to pick them up - they are way way quicker than much of the Premiership.

Teams were scared of the thing we now dont really possess - pace. For that reason, its worth it. I enjoyed seeing those two together as they worked very well together. Speed, Dyer, Solano, Shearer Bellamy all worked together as they complimented each others strengths and made up for each others weaknesses. The fact that we had the loose cannon on the left didnt hurt either.

At the minute we havent got that interplay, pace or inventiveness (on the level we had then - and please dont tell me that Milner has - or will have - as much ability as Nobby or Robert) anywhere.

 

Great observations. Personally I like Milner as a player, though agree he is limited in some respects. Your very significant points about Dyer are well made. Will probably be countered by "Dyer is a horrible cunt" replies in response though.

 

 

 

 

[ohmelads]

Milner's biggest problem is that he lacks both pace and strength. He's got pretty quick feet and a few tricks up his sleeve and if he had pace he could become a very good winger indeed, but it's something he was born without.

 

I've rated Milner ever since I saw him debut for us, but I had doubts he'd ever make it because of these shortcomings. He has made great strides in 12 months though and I think he's a much better all-round player than he was a year ago. He was arguably Villa's best player two season ago and he was arguably our best player last season, so I think he deserves a break. I think he'll go on improving and turn into a decent Premiership winger (he's alright at the moment), but I think his lack of pace or strength will prohibit him from ever being a great winger.

 

He does combine workrate with a bit of flair and if his crossing, shooting and confidence improve the way they have been he'll always be a handy player to have around. At his age, to be considered player of the season by many at Villa and Newcastle two years running is a good sign of things to come.

[TRon]

Don't think Milner is THAT slow tbh. He has a trick and a good right foot. That's one more attribute than Beckham, although Beckham's right foot is obviously a bit better. as an out and out winger to supply crosses Milner is a decent prospect and gives us an option (like Dyer) we can use to good effect when the need arises.