Centocampista creativo. È troppo da chiedere un midfielder creativo? New poll.

[Parky]

The fact that Emre, the closest thing we have to a playmaker, has been demoted to an occasional substitute is a concern.

 

Is it possible Allardyce hasn't recognised the need for creativity in the middle at all?

 

Yes sadly.

 

I give him a few games after the Jan window to see whether he reacts to what he's watching.

[Rich]

The fact that Emre, the closest thing we have to a playmaker, has been demoted to an occasional substitute is a concern.

 

Is it possible Allardyce hasn't recognised the need for creativity in the middle at all?

 

Yes sadly.

 

I give him a few games after the Jan window to see whether he reacts to what he's watching.

 

Nate's point is a good one, and one I've mentioned before. All this clamour for a creative maestro means nowt unless Allardyce wants one, unfortunately. His preferred central midfield of Nolan, Speed and Campo at Bolton was hardly brimming with flair.

 

People will always mention Okocha, but that was a long time ago now when you look at it (in regards to him being their fulcrum.)

 

Personally I feel these midfielders we're discussing are in demand simply because it's a glamour position and people are crying out for a bit of magic (Parky in particular). We don't have a proper number 9 anymore, we don't have any real focal point to the side, and we do probably need one. I'm not sure the likes of a Diego/VDV is the real answer - especially under this manager.

 

It's all a bit FM-ish. Are there any true central playmakers (classic 10's) in the PL outside of Elano at the minute?

 

Man City have a lot to answer for this season as pertains to us.

[Parky]

The fact that Emre, the closest thing we have to a playmaker, has been demoted to an occasional substitute is a concern.

 

Is it possible Allardyce hasn't recognised the need for creativity in the middle at all?

 

Yes sadly.

 

I give him a few games after the Jan window to see whether he reacts to what he's watching.

 

Nate's point is a good one, and one I've mentioned before. All this clamour for a creative maestro means nowt unless Allardyce wants one, unfortunately. His preferred central midfield of Nolan, Speed and Campo at Bolton was hardly brimming with flair.

 

People will always mention Okocha, but that was a long time ago now when you look at it (in regards to him being their fulcrum.)

 

Personally I feel these midfielders we're discussing are in demand simply because it's a glamour position and people are crying out for a bit of magic (Parky in particular). We don't have a proper number 9 anymore, we don't have any real focal point to the side, and we do probably need one. I'm not sure the likes of a Diego/VDV is the real answer - especially under this manager.

 

It's all a bit FM-ish. Are there any true central playmakers (classic 10's) in the PL outside of Elano at the minute?

 

Man City have a lot to answer for this season as pertains to us.

 

Well balanced post Rich.

[Rich]

For the record, I'm afraid I don't have any answers (as usual!), but I do have faith that we will improve if Allardyce is given time.

 

I stand by the fact that if Man City weren't doing so well under new owners/a new manager then it wouldn't half as bad as it is on here - which really makes me want them to start crashing and burning very soon.

 

Oh how we could do with Richards and Dunne as our central defensive pair - bet they'd have made a fucking huge difference this season to us - more than Elano would have.

[Taylor Swift]

Richards is the key to Citeh. Though I've heard people say that Dunne is helping Richards along, I reckon it's the other way around in that Dunne can be more aggressive when defending because if he cocks up there's this big pacy kid waiting to clean up. I mean, how many times have you seen the opposition get a 1v1 vs Richards and Richards coming out on top? I think I see it at least once or twice a game (in the games that I've seen Citeh play), and for comparison's sake, if it was any other defender in the league, they wouldn't have had the pace to catch up and it would be a 1v1 for the opposition player and the City gk. Richards is the real difference maker.

[Rich]

Aye, all the hype around Elano and us needing a player similar to him, and the real foundation of success has been the partnership of Richards and Dunne (wildly underrated player in my eyes, especially these days), especially at the CoM where they've only conceded 5 goals.

 

These two lads have played 19 and 20 games for Man City this season, respectively, that's practically 100% from both of them. A central defensive unit like that cannot be underestimated. I know people are sick of the injuries thing, but I reckon keeping Faye and Taylor fit and regularly playing could be a real difference maker.

 

Cacapa and Rozehnal don't entirely convince me, I have to say.

 

Apologies for diverting the thread a bit, but I'm merely saying I think this view of a playmaker as our "saviour" is not much more than wishful thinking. Sorry if that pisses on some chips, but it's how I feel about things. The defence still needs sorting first.

 

We've only scored 1 less goal than Man City at home this season... but we've conceded 10 more. That's the difference. (We've even scored 2 more than them away from home!)

[nufcjmc]

Aye, all the hype around Elano and us needing a player similar to him, and the real foundation of success has been the partnership of Richards and Dunne (wildly underrated player in my eyes, especially these days), especially at the CoM where they've only conceded 5 goals.

 

These two lads have played 19 and 20 games for Man City this season, respectively, that's practically 100% from both of them. A central defensive unit like that cannot be underestimated. I know people are sick of the injuries thing, but I reckon keeping Faye and Taylor fit and regularly playing could be a real difference maker.

 

Cacapa and Rozehnal don't entirely convince me, I have to say.

 

Apologies for diverting the thread a bit, but I'm merely saying I think this view of a playmaker as our "saviour" is not much more than wishful thinking. Sorry if that pisses on some chips, but it's how I feel about things. The defence still needs sorting first.

 

We've only scored 1 less goal than Man City at home this season... but we've conceded 10 more. That's the difference. (We've even scored 2 more than them away from home!)

 

so basically minus the "gelling in factor" we still have a weak back 4 regardless of the total replacement of the 3 B's

[Rich]

It's picking the same defenders more than anything, that's what I'm getting at. Steven Taylor has had far too many injuries in his short career here, even Faye's had two knocks while he's been our player.

 

There has to be some stability in the defence, especially in the centre, it's imperative.

 

I just looked up those statistics on Man City and ourselves now and they've shocked me, to be honest, we've scored more at St. James' than they have in 9 WINS at the CoM Stadium. That's bizarre. Then you look at the "against" column and see 5 versus 15, then things become a bit clearer.

 

I know defence and attack go hand-in-hand, but something isn't quite adding up here. I don't think we've got bad defenders really, but like you said some need to gel and I think some need to stay fit and form a partnership. My money is on Faye and Taylor at the moment, or one of those with Cacapa.

 

It has to be Faye/Taylor together or with one of Cacapa/Rozehnal, but of course they need to be fit (which they all are now, apparently.) If we can have a settled partnership in there for 10-15 games then the difference will be large, I'd put good money on that. I think it could be more important than signing a "number 10" and hoping for the best.

[nufcjmc]

its frustrating when you find gems like beye but other than that I really think the rest of the back could be improved on. I agree that consistency is important but I just have this horrid feeling that we are still in a need of a high calibre centre back.

[Rich]

I think someone like Hyypia or Campbell would have been an ideal short-term solution.

 

Long-term I think our only genuine hope is Taylor.

[Taylor Swift]

But Rich, surely you must see that we still have a major problem creating chances. We created plenty of half-chances today but they're the percentage football BS type of chances instead of actually carving open the other team and then having a clear cut unmissable chance. Sam's style of attacking seems to be more desperation and hoping for inspiration rather than actually have a clear plan of attack. It's like 'let's launch balls into the pen area, hope the second ball falls to our guy then hope the guy's good enough to score'. It's just ridiculous that our attack solely consisted of that in the second half of the game against the WORST team in the Premiership. The center midfield pairing also isn't helping in that Butt cannot be the creative guy but he's forced into spraying those long balls because Barton just isn't up to much nowadays.

 

City may be an aberration in terms of goals differential and the fact that Micah Richards is a freak of nature. But just look at Arsenal though, 5 clean sheets in 18 games says a lot about their ability to defend but because they know how they're going to attack and have faith and belief in it, they have always scored more than the opposition, and yet I have no qualms saying their defence and goalkeeper are quite dodgy. All in all, I just think we have a problem creating chances and it's a problem that's equally as big as the defensive one and probably more relevant when we struggle to create anything against the likes of Reading, Sunderland and Derby (away game).

 

Edit - we picked up 1 point out of the 3 away games against Sunderland, Reading and Derby not because of our inability to defend, but because of our inability to dictate the pace of the game and create enough chances for our strikers. Imo.

[nufcjmc]

I think someone like Hyypia or Campbell would have been an ideal short-term solution.

 

Long-term I think our only genuine hope is Taylor.

 

remember too mate your idea of a consistant back 4 aint going to happen with the african nations comming up.

 

if we are going to improve in midfield I think it should be a top class defensive midfield player and maybe a new right winger. The back 4 obviously need more shielding and we need to have an attacking presense on the right wing, where are our crossing comming in we have a target man in viduka and I have seen martins jump like he is on springs so goals would come just at the moment any attack we do seem to come straight down the middle and when we press we leave this massive gap between the midfield and defenders for even the least creative teams to have a go at us.

[1878]

Richards is the key to Citeh. Though I've heard people say that Dunne is helping Richards along, I reckon it's the other way around in that Dunne can be more aggressive when defending because if he cocks up there's this big pacy kid waiting to clean up. I mean, how many times have you seen the opposition get a 1v1 vs Richards and Richards coming out on top? I think I see it at least once or twice a game (in the games that I've seen Citeh play), and for comparison's sake, if it was any other defender in the league, they wouldn't have had the pace to catch up and it would be a 1v1 for the opposition player and the City gk. Richards is the real difference maker.

 

Is it not Dunne that's won City's player of the season award for about 4 years on the trot?

 

Richards makes great recovery tackles due to his pace/athleticism but, from what I've seen, a lot of the time they're his own mistakes he's making up for.

[Delima]

It's all a bit FM-ish. Are there any true central playmakers (classic 10's) in the PL outside of Elano at the minute?

 

Cesc Fabregas, Paul Scholes, Anderson, Frank Lampard, Steven Gerrard, Mikel Arteta (on the wing), Pedro Mendes (when he is playing), Garth Barry, Jermaine Jenas (or Jamie O'Hara soon), Fabio Rochemback, Oliver Kapo etc.

[fredbob]

That stat about our our goals against is the key to me, i still belive that there is a great back 4 in their somewhere but ive noticed that no matter how well a player in defence plays we still end up conceeding goals which to me says that the protection of the back 4 isnt adequate enough. I'd rather we go for a defensive midfielder, Bouba Diop obisuly wont come but he's been looking imense for Portsmouth.

 

I heard somehwere that Allardyce was after Elano butcouldnt because we were in the middle of a takeover or something like that.

[johnnypd]

man city had a top class pairing last season too in Distin and Dunne, which was even more settled than Dunne and Richards, so i think its rubbish to say he's the difference. city were always pretty solid they just had nothing going forward, scored 29 goals last season the worst in the league, equal with watford, they're on course to score double what they did last season but in terms of concedings its around the same as last season. for me the difference is sven's ability to get a side playing good football, and having elano and petrov in there (michael johnson has been a revelation too, plays very unlike an english player, not suprising as he trained with feyenoord iirc). now that they're strengthening even more with castillo it looks like they'll get even better, as they've made do with Mpenza who is pretty poor but can do a job.

 

fredbob, the quotes in the papers suggested that allardyce felt he didn't need elano as he already had a wealth of talent upfront. agree with what has been said above by some tho, we already do have some creative players in the side but i feel allardyce doesn't fancy them, or just can't get the best out of them. if he can't work with what we have, would a "centrocampista creativo" be effective in one of his sides? perhaps a better bet for us would be a deep lying playmaker, a better version of Campo for instance, along the lines of Mikel or Alonso..

[Rich]

It's all a bit FM-ish. Are there any true central playmakers (classic 10's) in the PL outside of Elano at the minute?

 

Cesc Fabregas, Paul Scholes, Anderson, Frank Lampard, Steven Gerrard, Mikel Arteta (on the wing), Pedro Mendes (when he is playing), Garth Barry, Jermaine Jenas (or Jamie O'Hara soon), Fabio Rochemback, Oliver Kapo etc.

 

That post made me laugh, thanks.

[Parky]

We're getting locked out by shit sides cause we don't create enough clear/clean chances. The reason for this is we have nobody who can see the last/3rd phase pass.

If you keep possesion in mf more and a creative CM can go someway in dictating this, it takes the pressure of the defence as well.

Currently from what I see Beye and Zogg are bolting up the flanks and leaving gaps behind and the def component of our covering mf ie Butt/Geremi/Smith don't really have engines or real presence.

I forgive SA for now cause I realise he couldn't have forseen all eventualities.

But buying quality is one way for a manager to buy luck.

 

[Parky]

But Rich, surely you must see that we still have a major problem creating chances. We created plenty of half-chances today but they're the percentage football BS type of chances instead of actually carving open the other team and then having a clear cut unmissable chance. Sam's style of attacking seems to be more desperation and hoping for inspiration rather than actually have a clear plan of attack. It's like 'let's launch balls into the pen area, hope the second ball falls to our guy then hope the guy's good enough to score'. It's just ridiculous that our attack solely consisted of that in the second half of the game against the WORST team in the Premiership. The center midfield pairing also isn't helping in that Butt cannot be the creative guy but he's forced into spraying those long balls because Barton just isn't up to much nowadays.

 

City may be an aberration in terms of goals differential and the fact that Micah Richards is a freak of nature. But just look at Arsenal though, 5 clean sheets in 18 games says a lot about their ability to defend but because they know how they're going to attack and have faith and belief in it, they have always scored more than the opposition, and yet I have no qualms saying their defence and goalkeeper are quite dodgy. All in all, I just think we have a problem creating chances and it's a problem that's equally as big as the defensive one and probably more relevant when we struggle to create anything against the likes of Reading, Sunderland and Derby (away game).

 

Edit - we picked up 1 point out of the 3 away games against Sunderland, Reading and Derby not because of our inability to defend, but because of our inability to dictate the pace of the game and create enough chances for our strikers. Imo.

 

Just seen this. More or less where I stand.

[Rich]

We've only failed to score in 4 games this season, out of 20.

 

We've scored more goals than Man City and Chelsea in the league, amazingly. (Can't believe that myself.)

 

I do see what you're saying, but if the defence was sorted first and foremost then we'd be right up there in the mix. A creative player in the mould of an Elano/Diego/VDV is a luxury player, in my eyes, especially in a team managed by Sam Allardyce. I would love it if we played through a playmaker, I really would, but I can't help but feel it's your classic "wishful thinking" coming into play.

 

Stop conceding daft goals (both of them today were from appalling defending, again) and the need for a playmaker becomes less and less.

[Parky]

IMO comparing our game to City is a misnoma, they play a well rehersed 3rd phase game built on posession and the midfield catching up or refueling the attack and sometimes they break quickly with pace, but with the option of re-cycling the attack if the break is caught or moves sideways. It's a tempo game and very much SGE style, probably get an old Lazio match and see very much the same.

 

We play a 2nd phase game primarily which is trying to hit isolated players with pace or heading ability (Martins/Viduka/Smith) and then picking up the second ball. This always looks better on stats as it looks like the ball is in dangerous areas more often, when in reality it is a far less dangerous strategy because player support is rarely there in large numbers to make a differance. If it goes wide to Milner or someone we are then moving to a 3rd phase game ie another pass/two before a chance is created, but this with us is often by default ie a whacked in cross (rarely from the byline) or the ball coming back inside for a vaguely aimed chip etc..

 

The main problem with this approach is that unless you have the required strikers it is the worst of all worlds ie no support for the 2nd phase knockdown or feeder pass or the whole defence is back by the time the ball is recycled from the wing....2nd phase footie only works if you have 3/4 players with pace not just one.

 

*I hope some of this makes sense I've had a couple.

[Parky]

We've only failed to score in 4 games this season, out of 20.

 

We've scored more goals than Man City and Chelsea in the league, amazingly. (Can't believe that myself.)

 

I do see what you're saying, but if the defence was sorted first and foremost then we'd be right up there in the mix. A creative player in the mould of an Elano/Diego/VDV is a luxury player, in my eyes, especially in a team managed by Sam Allardyce. I would love it if we played through a playmaker, I really would, but I can't help but feel it's your classic "wishful thinking" coming into play.

 

Stop conceding daft goals (both of them today were from appalling defending, again) and the need for a playmaker becomes less and less.

 

We will continue to concede daft goals till pressure is taken off the defence by a midfield that can keep the ball.

[Rich]

We've only failed to score in 4 games this season, out of 20.

 

We've scored more goals than Man City and Chelsea in the league, amazingly. (Can't believe that myself.)

 

I do see what you're saying, but if the defence was sorted first and foremost then we'd be right up there in the mix. A creative player in the mould of an Elano/Diego/VDV is a luxury player, in my eyes, especially in a team managed by Sam Allardyce. I would love it if we played through a playmaker, I really would, but I can't help but feel it's your classic "wishful thinking" coming into play.

 

Stop conceding daft goals (both of them today were from appalling defending, again) and the need for a playmaker becomes less and less.

 

We will continue to concede daft goals till pressure is taken off the defence by a midfield that can keep the ball.

 

I'm not sure if that excuses Derby's first today, in particular, which came from a throw-in. Derby were allowed 4 shots on goal in this game, 2 on target, we had nearly 60% posession, 72.5% pass completion... I have a feeling that you know I'm right, but being an optimist you're majestically trying to dance your way around the truth in order to keep pushing for a Diego or a van der Vaart, because you strive for emphatic solutions to what are really simple problems.

 

Like I've said, I'd love us to sign one of these sorts of players, but the defence is a more pressing concern and one that can be more readily/realistically sorted out.

[Rich]

IMO comparing our game to City is a misnoma, they play a well rehersed 3rd phase game built on posession and the midfield catching up or refueling the attack and sometimes they break quickly with pace, but with the option of re-cycling the attack if the break is caught or moves sideways. It's a tempo game and very much SGE style, probably get an old Lazio match and see very much the same.

 

We play a 2nd phase game primarily which is trying to hit isolated players with pace or heading ability (Martins/Viduka/Smith) and then picking up the second ball. This always looks better on stats as it looks like the ball is in dangerous areas more often, when in reality it is a far less dangerous strategy because player support is rarely there in large numbers to make a differance. If it goes wide to Milner or someone we are then moving to a 3rd phase game ie another pass/two before a chance is created, but this with us is often by default ie a whacked in cross (rarely from the byline) or the ball coming back inside for a vaguely aimed chip etc..

 

The main problem with this approach is that unless you have the required strikers it is the worst of all worlds ie no support for the 2nd phase knockdown or feeder pass or the whole defence is back by the time the ball is recycled from the wing....2nd phase footie only works if you have 3/4 players with pace not just one.

 

*I hope some of this makes sense I've had a couple.

 

Good Christ, man, have you got a football tactics book for an early Xmas present?

 

Since when did goals scored merely become "stats"? Surely goals are the most important aspect of the entire game?

 

You can dance ever-increasing circles around the issue all you like Parkster, but the truth is out there. It's not particularly pleasant or exciting, but it's there.

[Parky]

We've only failed to score in 4 games this season, out of 20.

 

We've scored more goals than Man City and Chelsea in the league, amazingly. (Can't believe that myself.)

 

I do see what you're saying, but if the defence was sorted first and foremost then we'd be right up there in the mix. A creative player in the mould of an Elano/Diego/VDV is a luxury player, in my eyes, especially in a team managed by Sam Allardyce. I would love it if we played through a playmaker, I really would, but I can't help but feel it's your classic "wishful thinking" coming into play.

 

Stop conceding daft goals (both of them today were from appalling defending, again) and the need for a playmaker becomes less and less.

 

We will continue to concede daft goals till pressure is taken off the defence by a midfield that can keep the ball.

 

I'm not sure if that excuses Derby's first today, in particular, which came from a throw-in. Derby were allowed 4 shots on goal in this game, 2 on target, we had nearly 60% posession, 72.5% pass completion... I have a feeling that you know I'm right, but being an optimist you're majestically trying to dance your way around the truth in order to keep pushing for a Diego or a van der Vaart, because you strive for emphatic solutions to what are really simple problems.

 

Like I've said, I'd love us to sign one of these sorts of players, but the defence is a more pressing concern and one that can be more readily/realistically sorted out.

 

I'll take 'majestic' just before bedtime.