macbeth

Celtic beat Man U last year in the CL, in the last 7 years have also knocked Blackburtn and Liverpool out of Europe, their only ties against English sides. Last season they took the eventual winners to extra time in the CL last 16. Milan subsequently veating Man U 5-3 on aggregate, and Liverpool 2-1 in the final. Since 2000 they have knocked Barcelona out of the Uefa cup, they have also beaten Juve in the CL. Probably too good to play in England. Their prize omney for winning the SPL last year was £2m, two million. Watford will have got ~£20m for finishing bottom of the Premiership. If Celtic had access to the TV money available in England they would be out of sight. Mebbe

The fan is on the front of the Daily Record saying he feels he may have to leave Scotland. Celtic fans got so many brownie points back in 2003 that the club will be judged sympathetically http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/3189853.stm Celtic fans 'Europe's best' The Scottish outfit's supporters received the 2003 Uefa Fair Play Award on Wednesday for their behaviour during the club's run to the Uefa Cup final last season. European football's governing body paid tribute to the 80,000 fans that had travelled to Seville to help create a fiesta atmosphere in the Spanish city. Celtic Supporters Association general secretary Eddie Toner said: "The Fair Play Award is a fantastic tribute to the Celtic supporters who represented the club in Europe so magnificently last season. "Celtic supporters have travelled in large numbers throughout Europe over many years and they have rightly earned an excellent reputation during this time. Celtic's Uefa Cup challenge will be remembered and treasured for years to come Celtic chairman Brian Quinn "The Fair Play Award is further recognition of the Celtic supporters' high standing in Europe and an honour which is well deserved." Celtic chairman Brian Quinn added: "The backing the team received from supporters throughout our entire Uefa Cup run both home and away was overwhelming and the supporters' behaviour was a credit to the club. "Despite the disappointment in Seville, Celtic's Uefa Cup challenge and the crucial role which the supporters played in this effort will be remembered and treasured for years to come." Rivalry spurs on Celtic Celtic season ticket holders John Byrne and John Gallagher accepted the award at the annual Uefa Football Gala in Monte Carlo. Uefa also confirmed that it is to present a special plaque to the club's fans at Celtic Park before a match in September.

I understand the belief that football clubs are somehow different, even if I don't completley buy into it. What I cannot get my head around is how any can suggest things were okay as the business merrily lost £62m in 9 years, had a £20m overdraft on top of the stadium "mortgage", and was losing money at a rate of £1.5m per month, with its main outgoing, player wages increasing at 14% every year over th last 8 years, and all the current player being on extra long contracts. There was not a single positive in the last set of accounts from the club.

. This is the net assets of the club. So if they added up all the assets, like ground, players, company cars, etc and then took off the amount they still owed for buying those assets, they would have been left with £7m last January. When they did that sum in 1998 they would have got £56m. The value in May was probably less than 0. If you have no assets to borrow against you are in trouble. What about the £30m increase in Sky revenues? That increased income stream would allow more flexible finance in itself. Yes but banks don't generally (!!) want to lend more money to a business losing money hand over fist the way NUFC were running. The £30m increase would be if we won the Premiership, the likely figure is ~£20m. This is also mostly made up of prize money to be paid at the season end. The losses were likely to be roughly £20m for the year the extra money woudl just mean no losses, but only if there was no money borrowed/spent. That Ashley, or anyone wanted to pay out the amount they did was just madness. That we were so close to going bust was also madness. Our chairmen do have something in common Fine but by saying 'the company was worth £7m' it sounds like you mean that the value of the club was £7m, which it clearly wasnt. I'm also far more interested in 'value' as defined by the market than 'worth', as defined by macbeth. the figure I quoted was what the club put in their accoutns as the "net assets". I didn't make the number up, the club did. I'm comfrtoable with your market definition. If no one had ceom in to buy the club, whcih was the case up to Ashley did that make the club worthless ? I alwas disliked your definition. It made the club hang on to say Titus or Carl Cort too long cos they saw them as being "worth" £6m (or whatever it was) that they had paid. That no on else was interetsed didn't seem to register. If Ashley decided tomorrow to sell up and no was prepared to pay more than £50m would that be the true worth? Just doesn't make sense. There must be some absolute value on what the club is worth. Somewhere

. This is the net assets of the club. So if they added up all the assets, like ground, players, company cars, etc and then took off the amount they still owed for buying those assets, they would have been left with £7m last January. When they did that sum in 1998 they would have got £56m. The value in May was probably less than 0. If you have no assets to borrow against you are in trouble. What about the £30m increase in Sky revenues? That increased income stream would allow more flexible finance in itself. Yes but banks don't generally (!!) want to lend more money to a business losing money hand over fist the way NUFC were running. The £30m increase would be if we won the Premiership, the likely figure is ~£20m. This is also mostly made up of prize money to be paid at the season end. The losses were likely to be roughly £20m for the year the extra money woudl just mean no losses, but only if there was no money borrowed/spent. That Ashley, or anyone wanted to pay out the amount they did was just madness. That we were so close to going bust was also madness. Our chairmen do have something in common

The NUFC issue would undoubtedly be the ability to pay the short term debt. The mortgage on the stadium was always a ring-fenced figure with first call at all times. The payments are roughly £4.5m per year, with conclusion in 2016. The shorter term debt has just gone up ridiculously over the last few years. From having cash in the bank 4 years ago, we went to having a £20m overdraft. This £20m plus its interest needs constant attention. As the club slid to having monthly losses of over £1.5m the ability to cover the overdraft repayments would become far harder. Add inthe drop in revenue, the using up of future sponsorship money and you have a real problem. The abuility to re-finance, or borrow more became impossible. The club worth dropped from £56m in 1998 to £7m in January 2007. With the £1.5m per month losses the club had no nett assets by the end of the season, nothing to put up as a guarantee against any other borrowings. Ashley had covered these

The accounts of SJ Holdings will show it the same way HFC Holdings shwo the Hibs finances. Tom Famer did exactly what Asheley has done. Farmer has now had the huge loans paid back to him. It took him 17 years

I think lots of people said they were interested, anyone who had a serious look at the books, or had made the offer Ashley had would have got it easily. A business losing close to £1.m a month on top of huge debts has no bargaining position. It also has littl ein the way of attractions either. Ashley, thankfully, doesn't have a money issue, and can take a very long approach. Even people who are only seriously rich,as opposed to obscenely rich couldn't have taken on our debts and liekly on-going losses.

The HAlls had been looking to sell since 2004 and couldn't find a buyer, what do you feel has changed since May ?

presumably Shepherd isn't paying them any longer

Tom Farmer (owner of Kwikfit) put piles of money into Hibs around 1990. They had huge debts and were about to go under. What he did was set up a new company called HFC Holdings which became the new owners of the company that was Hibernian Football Club. Farmer's money meant that there was no pressure from the banks who were petrified that they weren't going to get their lendings back. Farmer took the lomg term approach. He lent the club the money at a commercial rate of interest, but he did not ask for any immediate repayments on the money. This again allowed them to sort themselves out. 17 years on the debt is all but gone, down to tens of thousands rather than ~£20m. Farmer has got all his money back, with interest, but the club survived purely due to his intervention. In Hibs case this all happened at the time the Hearts chairman was lookign to by out Hibs and create Edinburgh United. Ashley has set up a company called SJP Holdings, has put stacks of his own cash in to coever debt problems. At some point in the distant future he'll want, and hopefully get, his money back and we'll all live happily ever after. (Hibs have fixed themselves thro youth development and selling off kids at big profits, they also sold a part of the club car park ofr £9m.) http://www.football-finances.org.uk/hibs/ Have to say it's lucky Mort hasn't come on here and said what he's said in the Chronicle. NE5 would rip him to bits for his scurrillous lies

Major Major was suggesting this when we were in the CL and had second best wages structure in the Premiership.

indeed

The summer we bought Warren Barton, Ginola, Ferdiand and Shaka was a dream time, for some

Anyone who saw us play under Keegan voted for him. Still have the tape of the West Ham game when we managed over 30 shots on goal in a game. Compare with yesterday which felt better than normal with 12

Turnover for 8 years .... http://www.football-finances.org.uk/newcastle/gates210.gif Profits in those years (before dividends) http://www.football-finances.org.uk/newcastle/profit2.gif after dividends ... http://www.football-finances.org.uk/newcastle/profit5.gif our ever-rising, out of control wages http://www.football-finances.org.uk/newcastle/payrol5.gif ++++++++++++++++ The smaller, lesser successful Spurs turnover ... http://www.football-finances.org.uk/spurs/income10.gif with profits of http://www.football-finances.org.uk/spurs/profit1.gif and wages of http://www.football-finances.org.uk/spurs/payrol7.gif and a debt situation (before this summer's big buys) of ... http://www.football-finances.org.uk/spurs/debt2.1.gif Hope NE5 is here to mock me

You really hate Harper don't you? I can understand you not rating him as a player, but there is some real hatred there. Why is that? Just hate his lack of ambition tbh. Content to sit on the bench and play about 5 times a year rather than play every week somewhere else. Some people think it's loyalty, which is fair enough, I think it's a criminal lack of ambition. I just can't get my head round his way of thinking. maybe his desire to play is like Shearer's desire for medals

Stokes was on-loan form Arsenal to Falkirk up to Xmas last season. Woudl have won player of the year if the season had stopped then. A hopeful sign that they look after young players

the previous owners made ~500%, not counting the money they made on subsequently selling shares. So if Ashley is the same he'll be looking to take out £500m

I'm surprised you think it will be quick and easy for the NUFC business plan and budget to shift from how it has been to some new one overnight.

I like your constant mocking of what you feel my views are. You haven't offered an any alternative. How do you feel a football club should be run (and you're clearly not NE5 so you're not allowed to say "it's obvious" )

Not sure whether this is aimed at me. I think that if Shepherd was still in charge there would have been no input of new funds. I also think that Ashley has, as yet, put no new transfer funds in (or if he has we've seen no evidence yet). I think Sam is working on the budget (sic) that Shepherd had in place for this summer. Similarly in that "lets put words into other people's mouths" style. If we re-sign Sibierski and Bernard (or their equivalents) in August will YOU view that as a panic or sensible ? Just as who ever your having a go at can't win, I'm not sure you can either. And the last bit is cos they have smaller stadiums than us . Apart from Leeds who have the biggets drop in league position over that period. Aim higher. Still love ya. I printed out hat quote and stuck it on my PC to make me smile

left back ??

In 2004 we made money from transfers, we brought more in than we spent, something like £10,400,000. If you were a proper fan you would have known that. I knew you wouldn't reply Net transfers paid on a season by season basis ...... http://www.nufc-finances.org.uk/transf6.gif amounts paid to shareholders over the same period shows ... http://www.football-finances.org.uk/nothin3.gif