Taylor Swift

For what it's worth, I'm judging Ben Arfa on what he's done in his whole career whereas you're judging him on 180 minutes of unfit football with the most recent minutes being ones in which we needed a goal and thus needed him to do something special; not exactly an ideal situation that you'd throw someone who's been out for over a year into. And Felipao makes another good point re: Best. He hasn't been amazing. He's had good games and bad games. He's contributed in some games, but he's been quiet for many other games. Even against Wolves, I thought he had a quiet game even though Jonas should have scored from his cross and Ba should have finished his pass. But otherwise I thought he didn't have the best of games. I think in general we're not creating enough clear-cut chances and having someone like Ben Arfa will be beneficial in the long-run because of the many reasons that a bunch of people have mentioned. He'll create more chances and more goals than he'll cost us by not working or running hard enough, and we'll end up in a better position with him starting over Best.

Yes I agree with your main point (though not about my analogies) in that we need to balance hard workers with skilled players. Most of our starting eleven are hard working. I would say all, actually, when Best starts. So there's room to sacrifice some running for some sublime skill, especially when that sublime skill is the difference between 0 and 1 point, and 1 and 3 points. As hardworking as most teams in the league are, they still end up with zero points when they go away to the Manc clubs. But if we had that skill in our team, that someone who could conjure up a goal or two out of nothing, who knows, maybe we'd be able to sneak something there. I'm just saying Ben Arfa is the type of player you build your team around, so I don't even flinch when I realise that someone like Best has to be sacrificed for him. Same with vDv at Spurs. He's won them 3 or 4 matches this season and he contributes fuck all to their defending, but he's been the difference for them which is why they sacrifice a hardworking player to play him. Your point about Adebayor is actually good but the key to their team has been vDv, not Adebayor.

Paragraphs, paragraphs. I keep meaning to hit enter but I always reach the end of the post before doing so. Sorry.

At the end of the day, when his chance comes and if he takes it, everyone will be very supportive. If he doesnt then people, including the silver fox, will continue to favour Besty. Just the way it is. Bit like the Santon situation. The screams for him to replace Taylor have died down, however when his chance comes he may defend well on his own and free up Jonas to attack. No shit, Sherlock. If your comment to every situation is that Pardew/the manager will be the decider then every thread on here and every football thread on every football or any sports forum is useless. Everyone wants us to win. Everyone wants us to develop into a good football team; one that is fun to watch, hard to beat and is able to compete. That's something that's so obvious that it doesn't need to be mentioned. Most of us have different opinions about our players and it's interesting to hear what different fans think about each player, regardless of whether the manager agrees or not.

Drogba was excellent at relieving pressure for Chelsea and everything went through him being the head of the team so I'm not sure where you're going with that one. You say the better footballing teams in Europe do this but we're not one of them, we don't have the quality of players to be one of them and would get dissected if we tried to play that way, so we do what's effective for us and stick with the solid forward that soaks up all of the pressure and can bring our other players into play from there. If you look at how we played under Robson with Shearer relieving the pressure from the team with the quicker and technical players swarming around and it's similar to the role Best is playing now. Your opinion that Ben Arfa will dribble past players to relieve pressure is all well and good when it comes off but when it doesn't we're instantly back under pressure and that's how it's been for every game he's featured up top for us, is he suddenly going to stop giving the ball away when he's up to speed? Well no and people have already pointed out when defending him that you're going to have to accept that he's going to lose it a lot while trying to be creative. Shearer as the hold up man worked excellent, Drogba in that role worked for Chelsea, Adebayor is making that role work at Spurs and most importantly Best is making that role work for us and until it doesn't there is no reason at all to change it. Shearer and Drogba had great technique and good enough close control to be able to maintain possession when pressured. Ba is more like them than Best is. And again, you're judging Ben Arfa on 180 minutes of football. I think you're being way too hasty. He doesn't have a record or history of losing the ball in key positions. People have said that he takes risks sometimes but he's not the type to take risks in the middle of the park. Look at the Everton match for a good example of what he can do on the ball and how he can help us relieve pressure. I think he lost the ball a few times in that match but all were when taking risks which were worth taking. He wasn't trying to take on the whole team from the halfway line like he tried to do twice against Spurs. I think the Spurs game is a complete one-off and will quickly be forgotten if Ben Arfa has a chance to start many games in a row and get back up to speed. I think Ben Arfa would be even better when we're not forced to score a goal because he'll have loads more space to operate in. Again, the Everton match is a good example of how he can affect a game when he's fully fit, whereas in the Spurs match he came on when Spurs were defending with 9 or at times 10 men and he looked short of sharpness.

You look at our possession stats this year and it's markedly different from last year because we have players who are good at controlling the ball, even now that we don't have a dominating powerhouse striker like Carroll holding the ball up. Having players like Cabaye and Ba - players who can control the ball and keep possession under pressure - has meant that we're now in much more control of matches, and this is reflected in the amount of possession that we have. Even against Spurs, a team that keeps possession very well, we had more of it because we had players who were able to control the ball under pressure. The key to relieving pressure from the defence and creating pressure on the opposition is being able to maintain possession. Best's technique is limited, at least relative to other attacking players in our squad (Ben Arfa, Marveaux, Ba, Cabaye, Jonas), so even though he can get his head on balls that are hoofed up every now and then, he can't maintain that possession when he's pressured, whereas the likes of Ben Arfa and Marveaux obviously can.

I just don't understand this. Yes, let's bench a French international who has been a must-start for every team that he's played for his life - incidentally every team that he's played for his life was also better than our team is now - and start the hardworking but limited Leon Best. I actually really like Best so I'm kind of sad that I'm having to argue so vociferously for eventually dropping him, but it's mind-boggling that people would drop someone as technically good as Ben Arfa. Would you drop Mata or Silva because they don't work as hard Best? Of course you don't. These players help you control the game. You wouldn't drop Cabaye because he's a shit tackler, in the same way that Scholes wasn't dropped in big games because he wasn't a good tackler. Even Man Utd right now don't have a DM in their team because they want players who can control the ball and dominate possession. If Best was Zlatan then no one would be arguing for his benching but he's a limited player who's close control isn't the best. He's still a player that will contribute to our season, but playing Ben Arfa will make us a better team.

The reason they don't need someone to hold the ball up is because they have players who are good at controlling the ball and have good technique, so they are able to play the game in the opposition's half. Ben Arfa has sublime skills on the ball and is probably the player that is hardest to get the ball from because he's agile, quick and is so technically good. Ergo, we should play him, because like Jonas, he can help relieve pressure. There are many ways of relieving pressure. Players like Cabaye help us relieve pressure because they are composed on the ball and they don't give it away needlessly. Jonas helps us relieve pressure by being a willing runner with the ball and being someone who doesn't lose the ball without being fouled. Ben Arfa has the same skills as Jonas. He plays a riskier game but he's only done so when the risk was worth taking. I think you've come to a seriously fast conclusion on Ben Arfa's tendencies based on his eagerness to impress when he came on against Spurs, which is a shame because playing the likes of Ben Arfa and Marveaux is the best way to become a team that's able to maintain constant pressure on the opposition team, thus negating the need for a striker who can hold the ball up. You're heading into the wrong direction if you think we need to play Best to hold up the ball and relieve pressure. We need to play Ben Arfa because he's able to dribble past players with ease and by constantly doing this, defenders will back off and thus the pressure will be on the opposition, and not us. That's how we will become a good team. Doing the old having a big striker to hold up play thing isn't the solution and it's obvious that it isn't because none of the better footballing teams on the continent do this. Even a team like Chelsea, when they played Drogba alone up front, was much more technical and Drogba himself is extremely talented. Ba is far more like him than Best because Ba has good control, a decent turn of pace and is also willing to run the channels.

And again, I'm not saying you drop Best now or even when we have our first bad game. But in time it must be realized that Ben Arfa has to start because he has too much quality. Pardew's already hinted at this in his press conferences and his decisions - so he pretty much agrees with the people who say Ben Arfa should eventually start - and there's a pretty clear reason that he's done so: because Ben Arfa could be magic and it's the height of stupidity not to find out whether he is or not.

Yeah think it may have to be Ben Arfa or Ba rather than together, or stick Ben Arfa out wide, I agree inferior position, and I've argued against it but not a terrible idea really. You mean it should be Best along with either of our two best offensive players, instead of playing our two best offensive players together? It's football, you should always be able to accomodate your best players together. Like Gerrard and Lampard in midfield for England? The two best individuals don't automatically make the best partnerships. Both of them do the same thing. Ben Arfa and Ba don't. It's not a good comparison.

Best and Ba are doing well and we're 3rd in the league. There's absolutely no reason to drop Best for a player who can't play the same role. I know you love Best but he's a limited player. He works hard and I like him but we will be a better team with Ben Arfa in place of him. Best has decent games where he's effective then other games - like against Spurs and Wigan - where he's completely ineffective and now when he goalscoring touch deserts him, his presence on the pitch can become a negative for us. If he was scoring or looking like scoring then I wouldn't be talking about this at all but he hasn't, and we haven't been able to create too many clear cut chances for a variety of reasons, which is something that someone like Ben Arfa can fix.

Why do we need someone like Best to hold the ball up? vPersie does not hold the ball up for Arsenal and yet they're able to score a shit ton of goals playing a 4-5-1. Torres for Liverpool wasn't the bruising-back-against-the-goal-hold-up-the-play striker, he was more the hanging on the last man's shoulder striker yet they had their most successful league season in 20+ years with Gerrard playing behind him. Who's holding the ball up for Man Utd these days? Oh wait, they've got Wellbeck running the channels and Rooney playing as a CM yet they're still able to score goals. Why can't Ben Arfa and Ba combine together when Ben Arfa is a creative midfielder who's main ability is to create for others? I would think that Ba would be even more effective with someone creating for him, and I don't see why it would make Ba easier to defend because Ben Arfa typically takes two or three defenders to contain. Ben Arfa is the type of player that creates space for everyone else on the pitch. His presence on the pitch will change the game.

By the way, I also want to add that I trust Pardew's judgment about which players to start etc. He clearly had a reason to drop Ba at the start of the reason and I feel that he knows what he's doing by holding Marveaux and Ben Arfa back as well, but he's also shown himself willing to play Ben Arfa in his favored position, which is prima facie evidence that Pardew has seen enough of Ben Arfa in training to be willing to send him on at HT to change the game. At the same time, he's probably seen that Ben Arfa isn't the hardest of workers which is why he wasn't sent on against either Wolves or Stoke, but we didn't buy a big talent like him for his defensive abilities. I think Pardew's seen enough to start Ben Arfa but he doesn't want to change a winning team for many reasons - morale probably being the biggest - but I bet that he'll make the change pretty instantly if Best isn't performing well or if Ben Arfa comes on and does well. I disagree with what someone said earlier in this thread about Ben Arfa telling Pardew that he's not willing to play on the wing because Pardew doesn't strike me as the type to bow down to player pressure. I do think that there was a general agreement between the player and everyone at the club at the time that he signed that he would be played as a #10, which was why he was so willing to sign for us, but again Pardew doesn't strike me as the type to force a player like Ben Arfa into the team based on an agreement made when he wasn't even here. I could see him just sitting Ben Arfa if he felt that he wasn't good enough, but he's been so vocal about Ben Arfa's quality and the role that he'll play that it's not just PR, in the same way that he's talked up R Taylor and continues to - rightly too imo - start him at LB. The silver fox is a smooth operator in the media room but he's also pretty honest when it comes to his judgment of players (Ranger being sixth choice also comes to mind).

I'm not sure why people would say that Ben Arfa and Ba won't work together well when you look at Best and Ba's partnership and there's not much to speak of there. Best himself has been in and out of a few games without doing much. He has not scored in 5 straight league matches, had three consecutive quiet games before being excellent against Stoke. He works hard and runs the channels well but we can play a whole different game if Ben Arfa's on. I'm not saying you drop Best for Ben Arfa right away, but you have to have an open mind about making the change and realizing that the better player is on the bench. I've agreed with Pardew's decisions so far in terms of sticking with the winning team - and I would play the same team against Everton - but at the back of Pardew's mind must be the thought that a potential matchwinner - a description that you can use for maybe one or two others in our squad - is sitting on the bench. We're winning so there's no reason to change things, but if the goals start drying up then the change must be made instantly, if only to find out whether Ben Arfa will recover to be the player he was, because the player that he was would inarguably be the best player at the club.

Felipao is talking a lot of sense here. Ben Arfa has played, I think, about 180 minutes in total in the Premiership so far in his whole career. One hundred and eighty fucking minutes. And some people are writing him off, saying he shouldn't be played in his favorite position, saying Best should start over him etc. What a load of absolute rubbish. I don't think I've read more nonsense in a long, long time. Ben Arfa is good enough to build a whole team around. He's the difference between ending up in 7th and possibly challenging for 4th. No one else in our squad has the talent that he does. There are doubts about him mentally but to write him off after essentially only two matches is one of the daftest things that I've ever read on here. A large portion of the recent pages in this thread will be in time as funny as 'Joke Enrique' is now. I mean, seriously, you're writing a player who many people would say is arguably the best player of his country's generation off after basically two matches? Are you shittin me? And preferring Leon Best over him? No one's sure whether he's the player he was before but to be concluding that he can't play in our team or that he won't fit in our formation without actually giving him a run of games is completely retarded and is a sign of extreme bias/close-mindedness. There's a chance that he's lost a yard of pace or whatever but to not even give him a chance and to prefer someone like Best over him is mind-boggling. It's like ruling out Drogba after his first season where he didn't get many goals, or ruling out Vidic after his first six months. If you're a baby and want instant gratification then buy a fucking lollipop.

sell Carroll cheaply

I wasn't being completely serious He has so much class about his game. He doesn't seem to know whether to position himself all the time yet, whether to drop deep to pick up the ball or float into space to do more damage, but that's part of the settling in phase, I suppose, which is why he seems to disappear from the game when we're attacking at times. When he's fully settled, everything will go through him.

Also interesting is that I think this was our first match in a while that we had less than 50% possession. I know we were pretty even or slightly ahead in the first half, which shows that we're still able to control possession when we need and want to. We defended much deeper in the second half and gave up possession when we had to risk throwing men forward, which was an understandable decision that worked out so I'm not worried about the overall possession statistic.

We played very well in the first half. The second half drop was predictable because we defended much deeper and invited some pressure onto us without really showing intent when counter-attacking. We defended brilliantly; much better than we passed it around. Jonas was awesome. R Taylor and Simpson both had what in my opinion were their best games of the season, evidenced by the fact that Krul only had one save to make. Honestly, it was just a brilliant team display. We pressured them out of their game in the first half, controlled the game well and very much deserved our lead. Guthrie also had a fine game and really masked Tiote's absence with his running and poise on the ball. This was probably our most accomplished display this season, imo, and we weren't even at our best offensively. I'm still stunned at how well we defended.

He covers so much ground. Honestly, apart from misplacing a few passes, this is how Xavi would look in black and white. He's a tough bastard, loves to put his foot in, constantly pressures the opposition and has so much quality on the ball. His ball over the top to Ba was beautiful, and he generally made the right decision when we were under pressure. I know Coloccini is the captain but this guy is also captain material; he never looks fazed or scared. Fucking awesome.

He had his best game for us last night. He had a very good first half but was marked out of the second, but still made some good runs and was able to help us relieve a lot of pressure, which as important because Jonas was basically playing as a second left-back last night. He's improving slowly, but at least he's improving. I still think Marveaux would be a better option in the short-term because we won't really know how good Obertan is until a couple of years from now when he'll have had plenty of chances to make his mark.

They're a tough, tough side and they always give us trouble. It's pretty good for us that they're missing a few first-teamers whereas we look like being able to play our best first-eleven. I think we should be able to nick it, maybe 2-1 or something, but honestly I'd be fine with a draw because they're a good team and they are very difficult to beat, except when they're playing at home against a shit side.

Amazing.

They'll be one point behind Chelsea at the end of this match. They have lost a few points stupidly but they have had a decent enough start to push on and challenge for fourth. I seriously hope they crash and burn but right now it looks like they won't. But yes, I agree that without Suarez, they're not better than we are. But that cunt is playing for them, like it or not.

If we go to any away match this season, win 2-0 without giving up a real chance to the opposition, everyone on this forum would be creaming their pants. It's been an excellent performance. They've defended really, really well. Maybe they haven't been extremely fluid in attack but they've had a few good chances, put two away and now they're closing the game out without much trouble.