fredbob

If Kinnear is still in charge, then i may agree with you (even though we've stayed up with much worse squads), if he goes then i'll start to think the exact oppositie.

All that bull does is get peoples hopes up. I'd rather they just kept quiet about any potential incomers. I dont get it, do we want to hear things or do we not? Or is it certain things you dont want to hear and certain things you do, someone needs to make up there mind and email the club.

£8-10m will stand up to most clubs transfer budget in Jan, the most we've ever spent is £11m. Quite frankly i dont care if we end up making a profit this window providing the squads improved.

I'd be delighted if we end up spending £10m this window.

Two weeks into the transfer window & the game of bluff is proving a masterstroke. I thought JFK played blinder when he was said to the press he had to ask the MD to pop in SJP for a chat, I bet Decca was really in southern France having a beer with Willie Mckay & some 6ft 2inch African. A post which promised much but delivered little. Its a dificult skill to write so much and not actually say anything, so well done with that.

I genuinely think this is a game of bluff, i think Kinnear has money to spend but is trying hard to hide the fact. Naming the amount we;ve bid is just too obvious, especially with the player in question.

He's worth double that. He also just wouldn't sign for you. I think £8-10m was talked about in the summer when we were after him as well. He's reiterated how he wants to come to the prem and if he almost signed for you then it shows he;s up for a move to a small club, why not a bigger one?

well said my man....can anyone on here say that if Fat Fred was still incharge we would be in this s***..he would never have entertained the structure and even considered appointing JFK... I'm not going to sing the praises of Shepherd, but could you imagine him not backing his manager with cash at this point in time, instead of scratching around for freebies? Theres a quote from Shephered saying how Allardyce missed out of a load of freebies in the summer window....so yes i can imagine scraping.

We need this manager lark sorted - its the only thing thats holding this club back. Get that right and you have a club thats ready to go. More can be done with this squad, we just look like a team that has few innovative ideas going forward, no cutting edge. Buying the right player wont magically sort something out, we need a manager who can address all sides of the game, this is the best first team we;ve seen in 5 years. Its a shame we have 5 months of this, lets just pray they have the stones to end it come may.

As I've said before, asking fans to go back to being mediocre or even relegated when they've seen good times is asking too much imo - it certainly is for someone like me who has seen poor times before and I also think it will be for "Sky" fans as they are generally described. I think with the remaining good will/willingness to keep going its still just about possible for Ashley to give it another go - a year of two of no ambition at all will do serious damage. As it's been mentioned in this thread and several others - what are the realistic alternatives? We can't keep pretending that we're going to win the lottery and somehow get the funds to rival Man City, Chelsea, etc., even then (as Chelsea are discovering), we'd simply be the plaything and the hopes of the fans would rest upon the whim of some (probably) foreign owner. Lets get the club back to basics, lets get the wage structure in line with the revenue streams...if the club can pay for itself season after season (lets call Ashley's paying off the debt as Year Zero) then any bonuses we receive (whether it be from Ashley's pocket or selling a promising youngster/cheap player) can be put towards a kitty (lets call it the "ambition" pot). As a fan, what I want (even more than winning something) is to go to SJP on a Saturday and come away feeling like all 11 players have given their all - win, lose or draw. Precisley my feelings too. This is why i think Ashley may have actually got it right, his major mistake, and the biggest mistake yet is that he appointed a man completely unsuitable for the job (not a slieght on Keegan).

Possibly - a fair point. If we had been taken over by say an NE consortium of businessmen then that approach would be more obvious - I think I like everyone else is disappointed that we were taken over by someone who nominally had a lot more money but has chose a frugal football approach. Hence the over reaction to the Keegan saga? No - imo that was about control and responsibility - it wouldn't have mattered if the budget was £1 or £100m So why are people complaining about the money spent if its not an issue at all? Control and repsonsiblity were key changes for the new regime, they wanted the share the repsoinsibitly o that the money was spent more effectively. In my opinion it worked to an extent, but system failed fundamentally becaseu of egos. Simple as that, the reaction was understandable but completely over done in my opinion. If people dont think they lead to the situation we're in now with Kinnear at the helm and Ashley looking to sell then why bother sustaining the protests?

Possibly - a fair point. If we had been taken over by say an NE consortium of businessmen then that approach would be more obvious - I think I like everyone else is disappointed that we were taken over by someone who nominally had a lot more money but has chose a frugal football approach. Hence the over reaction to the Keegan saga?

What about Lerner at Villa or the Irish/Yanks at Sunderland? they have injected working capital into their businesses and the only way to get it back is via success. There investment wont be philanthropic, and they wont be investing agaisnt a heavy wage or large scale debtl meaning there money will go primarily on the transfer fees and adding to a smaller wage bill. All you've said you;d do so far, is ignore part of the debt which is eating at the clubs revenue, invest £50m of your own money into the club relyin on one persons decisions and hoping we'll succeed, all whilst adding to the already inflated wage bill. It's basically one big gamble - wheres the next bit of money coming from? Do you think theres any chance whatsoever of Ashley turning down offers for Jonas or Bassong this summer? Every player has there price, if someone was to come in and offer £15m for a player we paid nothing for would you turn it down? Could that money now go back into the clubs transfer kitty and used on a better player? Isnt that the sensible thing to do?

Not as happy as you'll be if we don't sign anyone in this window meaning Baggio is out of pocket. I've got 1334 reasons for wanting us to sign players, how many do you have ? Strange of you to say this - supporting the man who is going to relegate us, are you happy with that ? How would you of run the club? How would you finance it all? After all the "mis-investment" in the past would you trust the future of the club with just one man etc? Seeing as though you have 1334 reasons for the success of the club, maybe you have an opinion on how you;d do things? Are you still happy Ashley hasn't wasted any money on transfers in the last 12 months ? It wasnt a challenging question, i wanted to know how you'd of done things? Its a pretty open question, anyone care to oblige? You won't restore the club into the european places and financial success that comes with it by refusing to back your manager. Still pleased he didn't waste any money by refusing to back his manager ? I would like you to explain to me how you think that a struggling side leads to financial comfort ? I'm not explaining all of this to you again. I have absolutely no idea why you wont answer this question. Its not even a loaded question, just a general query. How would you of done things differently when Ashley took over. NJS said he'd of given £50m of his own money as a gift to the club and brought in a footballing expert and not of paid off the extra £50m debt which wasnt necessary. Theres no contigency plan for the season after, the the wage bill isnt being addressed and he'd still be willing to trust just one man with his money with no contignecy plans if he failed, apparently happy to risk losing £50 just ike that should it go wrong. by backing my manager, the same as other clubs who are successful do, the same as we did when we played in europe. Fucking hell, its like trying to pry open a safe with a credit card. How would you back your manager? Where is the money coming from? Would you be willing to add to the wage bill even though the squad isnt repsresenting value for money? so you think that Mike Ashley backed Kevin Keegan to the utmost of the clubs possible spending power and income then ? Fuck me, this has nothing to do with Ashley. All I'm interested in is a practical and sensible take on how you or anyone would of ran the club at the time that Ashley came in, addressing the past, present and future of the club. All ive got so far is "Id give the club £50m of me own dosh and not address any uncompulsory debt" and "id back my manager". Its a perfectly sensible question and the fact that you'reunwilling to answer it suggest that there are reasons you dont want to answet it.

Not as happy as you'll be if we don't sign anyone in this window meaning Baggio is out of pocket. I've got 1334 reasons for wanting us to sign players, how many do you have ? Strange of you to say this - supporting the man who is going to relegate us, are you happy with that ? How would you of run the club? How would you finance it all? After all the "mis-investment" in the past would you trust the future of the club with just one man etc? Seeing as though you have 1334 reasons for the success of the club, maybe you have an opinion on how you;d do things? Are you still happy Ashley hasn't wasted any money on transfers in the last 12 months ? It wasnt a challenging question, i wanted to know how you'd of done things? Its a pretty open question, anyone care to oblige? You won't restore the club into the european places and financial success that comes with it by refusing to back your manager. Still pleased he didn't waste any money by refusing to back his manager ? I would like you to explain to me how you think that a struggling side leads to financial comfort ? I'm not explaining all of this to you again. I have absolutely no idea why you wont answer this question. Its not even a loaded question, just a general query. How would you of done things differently when Ashley took over. NJS said he'd of given £50m of his own money as a gift to the club and brought in a footballing expert and not of paid off the extra £50m debt which wasnt necessary. Theres no contigency plan for the season after, the the wage bill isnt being addressed and he'd still be willing to trust just one man with his money with no contignecy plans if he failed, apparently happy to risk losing £50 just ike that should it go wrong. by backing my manager, the same as other clubs who are successful do, the same as we did when we played in europe. Fucking hell, its like trying to pry open a safe with a credit card. How would you back your manager? Where is the money coming from? Would you be willing to add to the wage bill even though the squad isnt repsresenting value for money?

Not as happy as you'll be if we don't sign anyone in this window meaning Baggio is out of pocket. I've got 1334 reasons for wanting us to sign players, how many do you have ? Strange of you to say this - supporting the man who is going to relegate us, are you happy with that ? How would you of run the club? How would you finance it all? After all the "mis-investment" in the past would you trust the future of the club with just one man etc? Seeing as though you have 1334 reasons for the success of the club, maybe you have an opinion on how you;d do things? Are you still happy Ashley hasn't wasted any money on transfers in the last 12 months ? It wasnt a challenging question, i wanted to know how you'd of done things? Its a pretty open question, anyone care to oblige? You won't restore the club into the european places and financial success that comes with it by refusing to back your manager. Still pleased he didn't waste any money by refusing to back his manager ? I would like you to explain to me how you think that a struggling side leads to financial comfort ? I'm not explaining all of this to you again. I have absolutely no idea why you wont answer this question. Its not even a loaded question, just a general query. How would you of done things differently when Ashley took over. NJS said he'd of given £50m of his own money as a gift to the club and brought in a footballing expert and not of paid off the extra £50m debt which wasnt necessary. Theres no contigency plan for the season after, the the wage bill isnt being addressed and he'd still be willing to trust just one man with his money with no contignecy plans if he failed, apparently happy to risk losing £50 just ike that should it go wrong.

Not as happy as you'll be if we don't sign anyone in this window meaning Baggio is out of pocket. I've got 1334 reasons for wanting us to sign players, how many do you have ? Strange of you to say this - supporting the man who is going to relegate us, are you happy with that ? How would you of run the club? How would you finance it all? After all the "mis-investment" in the past would you trust the future of the club with just one man etc? Seeing as though you have 1334 reasons for the success of the club, maybe you have an opinion on how you;d do things? Are you still happy Ashley hasn't wasted any money on transfers in the last 12 months ? It wasnt a challenging question, i wanted to know how you'd of done things? Its a pretty open question, anyone care to oblige?

Not as happy as you'll be if we don't sign anyone in this window meaning Baggio is out of pocket. I've got 1334 reasons for wanting us to sign players, how many do you have ? Strange of you to say this - supporting the man who is going to relegate us, are you happy with that ? How would you of run the club? How would you finance it all? After all the "mis-investment" in the past would you trust the future of the club with just one man etc? Seeing as though you have 1334 reasons for the success of the club, maybe you have an opinion on how you;d do things?

I would have left the debt which wasn't compulsory to be serviced by sky/ST income then I would have used persobnal money to fund a an intial splurge - maybe £50m I may have got an "expert" into help me run the club but the people Ashley got in had/have no expertise or experience in doing so. Where did you get that from? Even if you'd identified it as a problem which was eating into the clubs finances with interest? So you have £50m extra, to spend in this window and £50m increasing debt from then onwards? Then what? Wheres the next bit of cash coming from? Would you not say he's a bit of a business expert himself? Mort as well? As long as the debt is serviced then its okay - this "paying off the debt is the best thing he could have done" argument makes sense on an instinctive level but not with football clubs - see Man U and Liverpool as examples of serviceable debt models. Money to pay off any extra debt would come from increased revenues from a thing called success (however relative). I meant expert in the football sense - Allardyce did say that some players were missed out on in the early days because of Mort's on the job training. It was the best thing to do in the long term, as well as the short term, it was the best move full stop. Examples of Man U and Liverpool debt levels are moot, not only have they been consistently successful and therefore benefitted from the finances covering wages etc but there debt hasnt been acquired in the conventional way more the owners lumping the debt onto the club, something Ashley didnt do. Effectively speaking, Man U are paying of there own purchases through football. What your basically saying is that you'd gamble and lump £50m in the hope that we'd be successful, you;d also entrust that £50m to one man. You;ve basically not learnt anything from the mistakes of the past. If it goes wrong, your £50m out of pocket with potentially no sell on value of "unfiltered" players who have flopped here. Also, part of the strategic review suggested that they'd benefit from having a footballing person on the board, like you are suggesting. Unfortunalety the merits of Wise's appiontenet is up for debate. First of all I intimated that the £50m would be "my" money and not as a loan. Secondly, what is your alternative? If it is to embrace the Ashley "plan" then you are relying on Wise or whoever to find players who are good enough to keep us up but not good enough to be obvious targets for more ambitious clubs. In other words you'd have to have a production line which is self-sustaining and immediately successfull. Just as doing a "Souness" and wasting money, one year's bad crop and you'd be screwed. I'd also say that appointing a man who would make the £50m work is part of the gamble which other clubs have done - see Chelsea or Villa as well as Aresenal, Man U and Liverpool - for the record Ashley had that man in place. No - its about making himself happy or more prcisely not unhappy. You've got more money then brains if you would be willing to give away £50m just like that. There isnt a businessman in the world who's doing that, except you of course. Actually, Ashleys plan is something I'm happy to embrace. "Good enough to keep us up but not good enough to be obvious targets for more ambitious clubs" - what a load of rubbish that is. I dont even no where to start with this comment, so i wont bother. What do you think Ashleys plan is? I ask this becasue i get the impression your view is massively distorted, or at least compoletey different to mine.

I would have left the debt which wasn't compulsory to be serviced by sky/ST income then I would have used persobnal money to fund a an intial splurge - maybe £50m I may have got an "expert" into help me run the club but the people Ashley got in had/have no expertise or experience in doing so. Where did you get that from? Even if you'd identified it as a problem which was eating into the clubs finances with interest? So you have £50m extra, to spend in this window and £50m increasing debt from then onwards? Then what? Wheres the next bit of cash coming from? Would you not say he's a bit of a business expert himself? Mort as well? As long as the debt is serviced then its okay - this "paying off the debt is the best thing he could have done" argument makes sense on an instinctive level but not with football clubs - see Man U and Liverpool as examples of serviceable debt models. Money to pay off any extra debt would come from increased revenues from a thing called success (however relative). I meant expert in the football sense - Allardyce did say that some players were missed out on in the early days because of Mort's on the job training. It was the best thing to do in the long term, as well as the short term, it was the best move full stop. Examples of Man U and Liverpool debt levels are moot, not only have they been consistently successful and therefore benefitted from the finances covering wages etc but there debt hasnt been acquired in the conventional way more the owners lumping the debt onto the club, something Ashley didnt do. Effectively speaking, Man U are paying of there own purchases through football. What your basically saying is that you'd gamble and lump £50m in the hope that we'd be successful, you;d also entrust that £50m to one man. You;ve basically not learnt anything from the mistakes of the past. If it goes wrong, your £50m out of pocket with potentially no sell on value of "unfiltered" players who have flopped here. Also, part of the strategic review suggested that they'd benefit from having a footballing person on the board, like you are suggesting. Unfortunalety the merits of Wise's appiontenet is up for debate.

I would have left the debt which wasn't compulsory to be serviced by sky/ST income then I would have used persobnal money to fund a an intial splurge - maybe £50m I may have got an "expert" into help me run the club but the people Ashley got in had/have no expertise or experience in doing so. Where did you get that from? Even if you'd identified it as a problem which was eating into the clubs finances with interest? So you have £50m extra, to spend in this window and £50m increasing debt from then onwards? Then what? Wheres the next bit of cash coming from? Would you not say he's a bit of a business expert himself? Mort as well?

You're talking about resale value here are you? Even that's debatable. Frankly neither Bassong nor Coloccini hold a light to Woodgate at this time; Bassong may at some point. In terms of where we are now; we'd probably have conceded less with Dunne and Woodgate, we've scored a lot of goals, we'd be higher up the league. Well Colo certainly hasnt done anything to make him les valuable in my opinion, and Bassong has doubled his at least by now. Woodgate went to Spurs for £7m, his value isnt going to increase too much. As for the conceding less? As for conceeding less, thats very debatable. Man C have had a steady centre half partnership througoht the seaosn, we've onyl really seen Bassong and Colo reacently. Colo and bassong has been the best partnership that the club has had in many many years. EDIT: I dont make any claims that a Dunne Woody partnership would be worse or best, more that the merits of the colo bassong trasnfers. younger, cheaper, better injury records and id say very close in abilty.

I don't know a lot about this point I'll admit, but wasn't it the Shepherd regime that spent large amounts of the clubs money renting warehouses and storage facilities owned by members of the board and their families? Aye, and he rightly got stick for that, not that this is anything to do with anything. There is nothing actually wrong in what Ashley is doing with the catering and stewarding etc., its good business in terms of cost efficiency but those savings wont go on new players, they will go towards the get my money back fund Ashley opened when he "returned". How do you think Ashley will achieve a profit at this club? Not by returning, spending big money on new players, retaining the good players already here, firing Kinnear, appointing a good manager and backing that manager on a consistent basis, put it that way. Nor by putting a ridiculous price on the value of the club, as he's learned. So it isn't about profit now it is all about getting his money back or as much as possible, which will require him coming back (hence his 'sudden' return) and running the club tightly, extremely tightly, for a little while cutting those costs, keeping spending to a minimum and banking any profit. It wouldn't really surprise me if the whole squad were up for sale as countless papers allude to in a round about way, or rather that if any sizable bids were to come in for any of our players, ANY, they'd be accepted. What do you think? How will Ashley turn things around without adding to the colossal amount he's already spent on buying the club, an amount which no-one will give him back, never mind even more on top? How can he possibly turn it around? He even said himself he wont be putting any more in, and when he said any, that includes the money from the club itself which is as much his as is the money in his bank account. Unless of course, he really really does want to make a go of it and runs the club the way it needs to be run. And if you believe that.... So how about he lowers the price to waht he paid for it (£134m) then make the debt he paid off a directors loan and get the next regime to pay if off directly to him, if all he wants is his money back? To have this bloke down as a complete charlatan who has no interest in taking the club forward is a bit of a joke really, theres no logical reasoning for this view. My view is that Ashley will try and lower the wage bill by getting rid of the wasters at this club who have cost the club huge amount of money but havent given us the performances to match this and replace them with hungrier younger talent, as well as forgien talent. "we dont want to buy the world class stars, we want to find the player who could go on to be the world class stars", this does 2 things, it gives us a stable wage bill as the foriegner havent forged the rep to demand huge wages and it also provides a safety net with a resale value. Just in case. My belief is that Wise's role is to asses the value that players will have coming into the club, it doesnt take a lot of hindsight now to relaise that Bassong or Colo will prove to be much more valuable and sensible signings than Woodgate and Dunne. The mere fact that agreeing with this statement would contradict all your "the manager should have the final say" says alot about the fragility of your beliefs.

I don't know a lot about this point I'll admit, but wasn't it the Shepherd regime that spent large amounts of the clubs money renting warehouses and storage facilities owned by members of the board and their families? Aye, and he rightly got stick for that, not that this is anything to do with anything. There is nothing actually wrong in what Ashley is doing with the catering and stewarding etc., its good business in terms of cost efficiency but those savings wont go on new players, they will go towards the get my money back fund Ashley opened when he "returned". How do you think Ashley will achieve a profit at this club? You see, i believe the only way to make a profit at the club is to sell it at an inflated price. Saving a few million here and a few million there wont make a substantial enough a profit for Ashley, if any. How does Ashley go about increasing the value of the club in your opinion in order to get to the point to sell at a healthy profit?

This post pretty much highlights my post perfectly. This massive misconception about Martins and his lack of technical ability not making him a great striker. If Martins scrapes to 15 goals as you say, i can almost guarantee you he'd contribute another 5 goals in assist. At the end of the day, team goals a the only goals that count and if Martins has directly contributed to 20 goals in a season. in automatically puts him into the group of top strikers. He'll of effectively of contributed exactly the same amount of goals as Michael Owen will have. The only difference is becasue Owen has such a good record and seems technically sound he can get away with it more than some likes Martins who infuritaing game play often overshadows his overall contribution. He may be one of the worst of the bunch, but he'd definitely be up there. For me, when it comes to those 90 minutes over the course of a season, Martins is equal to Owen in terms of contibutions to the team. I could name so many strikers over the years who are technically proficaient but when it comes to contribution to the team have little input. Forlan, Milosevic, Heskey (at times), Marcus Bent, Sutton etc etc. (maybe some ropey examples at the moment but the list could go on and on) all you could say are technically better than martins, they have the touch, they have the passiing ablity, the hold up play and link up play, but when it comes to putting the ball in the back of the net, or making a noticebal contribution to the team, none have been as consitenly as good as Martins has been so far. That's just wrong on so many levels. If you want to make Martins look good then at least compare him to lesser players. I assume you mention Forlan because he was a flop at ManU, but his goalscoring record everywhere else he has played is better than 1 in 2. And with 4 seasons in La Liga that's a fantastic record. (and you'll be hard pressed to find a harder working forward) Everyone says Milosevic flopped at Villa. Maybe, but his goalscoring record in his first 2 seasons was almost identical to Martins here. The reason Savo disappointed so much was because he went to Villa with a record of almost a goal a game. Heskey might not be able to match Martins for goals (although he's not far behind) but he brings so much more to a team than that. Best partner Owen has ever had. And finally Sutton. A player that scored 25 league goals in one season for Norwich (slightly better than Martins) before going to Blackburn and playing a major part in them winning the league. Yes he might have been crap for one season at Chelsea but his career record is still better than 1 in 3. Marcus Bent I'll give you isn't a match for Martins, but if saying he's better than an average journeyman that nobody rates is the best we can do then we have serious problems. Martins is generally overrated because we are so poor. Understandable. Yes he might be important to us, but don't compare him to some players who have at times been in a different class. Well hold on, its the premiership that counts surely? Like i said the examples are ropey but i could mentions plenty more, in fact im confident that i could mentions far more flops and technically proficient strikers who dont have scoring and contriution records similiar to Martins. I compared him to players of goosd standards on purpose, the point being that whilst others who are considered technically superior i.e Forlan havent succeeded in the same why that Martins has. He just has the knack. Forlan is the only one who doesn't have a goalscoring record comparable with Martins in the Prem, but like I said his goal average in Spain, a league of comparable standards, wipes the floor with Martins. Who knows why it didn't work out for Forlan in England. Martins isn't a bad player, as I said previously, we just rate him higher because we are so average and he's not alone in that. For all the players we have that get constant stick, there are several distinctly average players that are overrated by some fans. I dont think we do rate him higher, i actually dont think we consider his actual input into a game which should include assists. The strange thing is that the majority of fans will say Owen is one of the prems top strikers, i agree, but his contribution to the nufc team is almost identical to Martins in term of team goals. Martins suffers from the illusion that he;s a bad player becasue of his many flaws, its a strnge one becasue at the end of the day he's one of our most effective players. As effective as Owen, the stats mirror this as well. This 1 in 2 is a massive red herring. Yeah putting the ball in the back of the net is overrated as well. Let's not change the subject and turn this into another Martins vs Owen debate. I took issue with you saying this: Ridiculous statement. Not really, and to be fair to me I did say they were ropey, are you actually implying that what im saying is fundamentally wrong? Or are you just picking faults with my examples? Im sure i could name you many better examples which make your point moot in the first place. Would you like me to do that? This isnt a Martins vs Owen debate - all im saying is that when you count assists as goals then effectively Martins stats are equal to Owen, but he doesnt get the recoginition he deserves becasue of the technical flaws in his game. Sorry. Missed this earlier. No, the only reason I picked you up on your original statement was because the examples you gave didn't support your argument. Given my reply I'd have thought that was obvious TBH. You could give other examples but it's pointless as, to repeat myself yet again, my only gripe was with the examples you've already given and not necessarily the point you were making. So you're pointing out the poor examples I gave after I'd said they were poor examples in the first place? Fair enough. If only it was 2008, i could nominate you for "most pedantic poster"