fredbob

To be honest Im suprised we've held on to Shay for so long, the mans been easily the best keeper in the league for so many many years, technically he may not be as good as others, but for pure consistency and performances he's been there and done it. The only keepers who have proved there worth as much as Given are Jaaskaleinen (sp) and Friedel.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1102183/Kinnear-All-need-miracle-Owen-Newcastles-saviour.html Christ - must of caught Xisco with his wife or something.

Of course it is man. Still doesn't alter the fact he was brilliant when he played here. He was. But people go on like he's Maldini man. He's England's forth choice at best yet you'd thing he'd get into a world Xl judging by some of the comments on here. I even remember arguing about 18 months back with more than one on here that though he was leagues ahead of Rio Ferdinand To be fair, his injuries robbed him of a steady england place and a reputation worthy of his talent. He'd easily be considered on of the best defender in the world had he not been injured at Madrid, he'd of got that rep from playing for such a big club.

Shouldnt an advantage be played for all shirt tugs, providing the player doesnt go down? Wouldnt that be the consistent thing to do?

He was offside for a start and if no advantage is gained after the original foul then play should get taken back to the original foul - if it was a foul originally then its purely a continuation of the same foul, not 2 seperate incidents. Very very bad refereeing.

Seems that we're suffereing from a small club big club mentalilty. We didnt deserve anything that game, but fuck me they have a good first team, noticed that we didnt close down as well as they did, they were more more motivatred than us. We're yet to lose a game from a goal scored in open play if i rememebr correctly. I thought that Bassong was good, Zog was suffering at LB (no surpirse) , Guthrie had some good moments as did Jonas, but that was it.

So, would you take Bellamy back?

Wrong, a strikers job nowadays is to do a bit of everything, including defending from the front. Your definitions of what players should do are far too rigid and you're seriously missing the point about the irrelavence of who scores the goals. In your world striker D isnt doing as good a job as striker C, but if i said stiker D was actually an AM you;d be creaming over this stat. Sorry for the stupid examples. Fuck sake, a strikers primary objective is to score goals, nothing about having rigid definitions. How the fuck can you not see that goals are more important than assists, passing or any other bullshit when talking about strikers? Because at the end of the day if we win 2-0 it makes no differences who's created the goal and whos scored it.

Goals win games. ElDiablos argumetns falling apart as we speak. Edit :TheSpence, you might be right about assists.

Would of been easier to just say that - thanks Dave! God Im such a long winded fuck!

You may think Martins is average and thats becaseu you have this misconception about his technique and other frustrating aspects of his game, he's an effective player. Its the Ronaldo vs Messi debate - productivity vs skill and abilty. Whats better 40 goals vs 20 goals, 20 assists? The stats say at the end of the day that Martins is directly responsible for the team scoring 40 goals, its his ability that has leas him into those positions, those very same positions that Owen hasnt got himself into and those very same goals that Owen HASNT created. You yourself have undermined your own argument byt stating the importance of a AM creating chances for Owen. Think about what your saying about the importance of an AM and Owen. I still dont see a valid argument why essentially Assists and goals cant be considered on a level playing field. Your assist argument is just agenda driven waffle to be honest. And why not explain why I have undermined myself? Owen needs someone as intelligent as him to make full use of his ability and we don't have that atm. I don't see where I've undermined my argument, assists are a big part of football and are important, yes, but Owen is a striker, his job is to score goals, same for Martins. Creating for others should be a bi-product. Martins is not a player who runs in behind and looks to recieve a pass through on goal, he recieves it to feet most of the time and turns. A decent playmaker doesn't have much to work with there. Owen will make these runs however and if an understanding develops then he will have guilt-edged chance after guilt-edged chance, we've seen it only in flashes here but it still shows he's capable. If you take Owen out the team you lose a huge potential goal return, one that has gone to waste in his time here as he's simply not had anyone intelligent to work with. If you're too shortsighted to not see this then fine, but don't moan when he goes somewhere else and begins to bang them in left right and centre. I'm willing to bet that Martins has scored more for us from being played through on goal than Owen has. I reckon Owen has scored more with his. Really does how the goal was scored matter? I was replying to this part... Martins is not a player who runs in behind and looks to recieve a pass through on goal, he recieves it to feet most of the time and turns. A decent playmaker doesn't have much to work with there. Owen will make these runs however and if an understanding develops then he will have guilt-edged chance after guilt-edged chance, we've seen it only in flashes here but it still shows he's capable. I think Martins has scored more goals when played through so if anything he would benefit just as much with an intelligent ball playing midfielder in the team. I would imagine all strikers would benefit from a intelligent ball playing midfielder. I am not arsed who scores Oba,Owen or Alan Smith it all means the same to me Newcastle United have scored. I hope both Oba & Owen score over 20 goals this season & they can all be pens or 1 yard tap ins as well. Assists can be the biggest myth going, the player who passed the ball to Maradonna before he beat 5 England player in 1986 is hardly worthy of being known as creative force for that goal. I very much doubt he'd get accredited with an assist. Im not sure about the process but very cinfident that that wouldnt be the case. They are last player to pass to the goalscorer is how assists are worked out.

You may think Martins is average and thats becaseu you have this misconception about his technique and other frustrating aspects of his game, he's an effective player. Its the Ronaldo vs Messi debate - productivity vs skill and abilty. Whats better 40 goals vs 20 goals, 20 assists? The stats say at the end of the day that Martins is directly responsible for the team scoring 40 goals, its his ability that has leas him into those positions, those very same positions that Owen hasnt got himself into and those very same goals that Owen HASNT created. You yourself have undermined your own argument byt stating the importance of a AM creating chances for Owen. Think about what your saying about the importance of an AM and Owen. I still dont see a valid argument why essentially Assists and goals cant be considered on a level playing field. Your assist argument is just agenda driven waffle to be honest. And why not explain why I have undermined myself? Owen needs someone as intelligent as him to make full use of his ability and we don't have that atm. I don't see where I've undermined my argument, assists are a big part of football and are important, yes, but Owen is a striker, his job is to score goals, same for Martins. Creating for others should be a bi-product. Martins is not a player who runs in behind and looks to recieve a pass through on goal, he recieves it to feet most of the time and turns. A decent playmaker doesn't have much to work with there. Owen will make these runs however and if an understanding develops then he will have guilt-edged chance after guilt-edged chance, we've seen it only in flashes here but it still shows he's capable. If you take Owen out the team you lose a huge potential goal return, one that has gone to waste in his time here as he's simply not had anyone intelligent to work with. If you're too shortsighted to not see this then fine, but don't moan when he goes somewhere else and begins to bang them in left right and centre. I'm willing to bet that Martins has scored more for us from being played through on goal than Owen has. I reckon Owen has scored more with his. Really does how the goal was scored matter? I was replying to this part... Martins is not a player who runs in behind and looks to recieve a pass through on goal, he recieves it to feet most of the time and turns. A decent playmaker doesn't have much to work with there. Owen will make these runs however and if an understanding develops then he will have guilt-edged chance after guilt-edged chance, we've seen it only in flashes here but it still shows he's capable. I think Martins has scored more goals when played through so if anything he would benefit just as much with an intelligent ball playing midfielder in the team. I would imagine all strikers would benefit from a intelligent ball playing midfielder. I am not arsed who scores Oba,Owen or Alan Smith it all means the same to me Newcastle United have scored. I hope both Oba & Owen score over 20 goals this season & they can all be pens or 1 yard tap ins as well. Assists can be the biggest myth going, the player who passed the ball to Maradonna before he beat 5 England player in 1986 is hardly worthy of being known as creative force for that goal. I very much doubt he'd get accredited with an assist. Im not sure about the process but very confident that that wouldnt be the case as there isnt direct involvment with the oppurtunity, although i think you might be right to some extent, i think a player is acredited with an assist if the other players scores from a rebound.

Wrong, a strikers job nowadays is to do a bit of everything, including defending from the front. Your definitions of what players should do are far too rigid and you're seriously missing the point about the irrelavence of who scores the goals. In your world striker D isnt doing as good a job as striker C, but if i said stiker D was actually an AM you;d be creaming over this stat. Sorry for the stupid examples.

You may think Martins is average and thats becaseu you have this misconception about his technique and other frustrating aspects of his game, he's an effective player. Its the Ronaldo vs Messi debate - productivity vs skill and abilty. Whats better 40 goals vs 20 goals, 20 assists? The stats say at the end of the day that Martins is directly responsible for the team scoring 40 goals, its his ability that has leas him into those positions, those very same positions that Owen hasnt got himself into and those very same goals that Owen HASNT created. You yourself have undermined your own argument byt stating the importance of a AM creating chances for Owen. Think about what your saying about the importance of an AM and Owen. I still dont see a valid argument why essentially Assists and goals cant be considered on a level playing field. Your assist argument is just agenda driven waffle to be honest. And why not explain why I have undermined myself? Owen needs someone as intelligent as him to make full use of his ability and we don't have that atm. I don't see where I've undermined my argument, assists are a big part of football and are important, yes, but Owen is a striker, his job is to score goals, same for Martins. Creating for others should be a bi-product. Martins is not a player who runs in behind and looks to recieve a pass through on goal, he recieves it to feet most of the time and turns. A decent playmaker doesn't have much to work with there. Owen will make these runs however and if an understanding develops then he will have guilt-edged chance after guilt-edged chance, we've seen it only in flashes here but it still shows he's capable. If you take Owen out the team you lose a huge potential goal return, one that has gone to waste in his time here as he's simply not had anyone intelligent to work with. If you're too shortsighted to not see this then fine, but don't moan when he goes somewhere else and begins to bang them in left right and centre. "agenda driven waffle" What are you on mate, its nothing of the sort, it actually my view on the interpretation of stats and as far as im concerned they're pretty accurate. Think about it, your denouncing the importance of assits whilst lauding there importance in the exact same post. Some would call that a contradiction. Take it down to the most simplest denomination: Striker A : 1 goal, 1 assist Astriker B : 2 goals, 0 assists Manipulate it a little more. Striker C : 30 goals, 0 assists Striker D : 0 goals, 30 assists Which striker is doing the best for the team? As far as im concerend you can manipulate thsoe stats as much and as little as possible and you'd still get the same results in terms of effectiveness. Dont fall into the aesthetics over practicality trap, its the reason your saying Martins is average. As for the second bit, thats just your rigid belief on what a striker should do, and quite fankly is rubbish.

How did you get this stat of Martins & 40 goals? Any links? www.transfermarkt.de Got it off "The German" so its obviously in German, i think 'vorlage' mean assist and you'll need to click on the 'leigestaten' tab on the players profile if thats any help.

You may think Martins is average and thats becaseu you have this misconception about his technique and other frustrating aspects of his game, he's an effective player. Its the Ronaldo vs Messi debate - productivity vs skill and abilty. Whats better 40 goals vs 20 goals, 20 assists? The stats say at the end of the day that Martins is directly responsible for the team scoring 40 goals, its his ability that has leas him into those positions, those very same positions that Owen hasnt got himself into and those very same goals that Owen HASNT created. You yourself have undermined your own argument byt stating the importance of a AM creating chances for Owen. Think about what your saying about the importance of an AM and Owen. I still dont see a valid argument why essentially Assists and goals cant be considered on a level playing field.

Said this earlier in the thread but Martins is more than capable of replacing Owen as a player. This "1 in 2" business is a cliche and a bit of a red herring, Dave made a good post about it being better for the team if a striker has more than just a good goal ratio to the side becasue it gives us an extra dimension on the field. A team with 4 players able to create (2 wingers and 2 strikers, will create more chances than a team with 3 players able to create, and more chances mean more goals) Martins goal scoring record isnt bad, but if you add the assists to the number of goals hes scored then you do get a similar ratio of input to team goals as owen. Owen is responsilbe for 28 goals and 1 assit - 29 goals in 62 appereances. Martins is responsible for 33 goals and 7 assists - 40 goals in 88 appearences . I dont see much difference here, i think id rather have 2 martins up front than 2 Owens. I think its a case of Owen being overated or a case of Martins being underated particulary because his lack of on field inteeligence and his sporadic technique, either way both players have very very similar inputs for the side in terms of goals.

Apparently Wenger was impressed withhis eye for talent, so much so that he was going to offer him a scouting role, and also he's been doing alot of scouting whilst out the job. "Apparently" being the key word here, i can actually see Wise and Kinnear having a good scouting relationship, unlike Keegan.

no ambition ? Villa bigger and more ambitious than Newcastle ? Well, they acted it in the past, but not since 1992 they haven't been, until now that is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't N'Zogbia make noises about leaving when the previous regime was incumbent? correct me if I'm wrong, but he didn't go, did he ? How do you get your argumetns so water-tight? Whats your feelings on Bassong? Good signing by the scouting team? thought after the Coventry game he looked good as a left back and he had something. He's superb as a centre back. As for the scouting team, most people get some signings right, credit where it is due. Shame they also found xisco and that other bloke, whatisname, Fernandez ? . All our managers have made some good signings though, the real shame is that the good signings made have been offset by selling a player the manager wanted to keep and not giving him the money to buy his own player(s) with it rather than looking like its offset the fee for Colocinni. Dalglish signed Given, Solano, Speed, Hamman. Gullit bought Dyer and Ferguson. Roeder bought Martins and Duff. Allardyce bought Beye, Enrique. Even the fuckwit Souness bought Owen [lets not speculate Shearer played a big part and keep it consistent as Souness was the manager] but lost that by kicking out Bellamy and Robert I've explained this before. Good clubs bring in players to strengthen the team as the manager sees fit, not sell one to buy one and make money or save money from it all. My quibble is with the overall attitude of the club, and the fact that they are behaving like a 2nd rate club, which became clear to me some time ago. They will make some good signing and bad signings, but aren't looking to add players to the current good ones to the extent that they have shown ambition to put the club where it should be. Simple fact is, even this "buying up the youngsters" stuff has been grossly over-exaggerated on here. People make out the club has never done it before, I pointed this out and it led to the thread being locked. If you want to compete with the trophy winning clubs you have to seriously compete with them. Stop making excuses and making naive suggestions that it can be done on the cheap, because it can't. I'll give you some more examples. Who are the last good youngsters manu have bought ? I'll tell you who they have bought. Nani (21) for 17m, Anderson (19) for 18m. We won't even mention Tevez, Rooney and Ronaldo. Even Arsenal have bought Walcott (17) for 12m, Nasri for 15m. Liverpool have bought Torres for 23m. I won't mention Robbie Keane because of his age, but he has cost them close to 20m quid. We have, in the young player stakes, apart from Bassong, bought Xisco for 5m, Guthrie for 2.5m this summer. People like you think that our scouting team are going to find players like this for 2 or 3m quid or less ? Do you think people like Ferguson, Benitez and Wenger are amateurs and are going to allow someone like Denis Wise to beat them to the best players ? The only chance we have of signing these sort of players, is if we are in the Champions league and matching these teams, or being seen to be at least trying to get up with them, as soon as possible. Thats reality. Not dreaming. Your dreaming a little to be honest - we blew that oppurtunity to keep up with the top 4 in terms of spending power the second we sacked SBR and the second Abrhamovich came to town, its jsut you who fails to recognise that, look at Villa, they are pursuiing pretty much the exact same thing we are doing, not going for the giants of the game, like Torres or Anderson like you say but the same sort of targets as us, young up coming players for the future, much like we did under SBR and much like we are doing now. They are 3rd. I hope signings like Bassong can continue for as long as possilbe as far as im concerned, the quality of the player IS the most important thing, nothing else and if every single window we make a profit i couldnt give a fuck, as long as the club continue to imporve the squad with gems like Bassong and Guthrie. Villa is the ideal model at the moment , the ironic thing with them is that arguable there most important players are Carew (5m), Young (9.5m) and Agbonglahor (youth), yet again hihgligting the fact that quality is the most important thing, NOT the amount of money. The game has changed. I'll leave you to go and add up the amount that O'Neill has been backed by his owner. Flies in the fact completely, of everything you've said before. Thats the end of this. I don't want to be accused of hijacking this thread by people who don't like the truth, although anybody who wishes to debate what is a good subject [iMO] I'll reply in the same vein. You're not wrong there mate but how is the way they've spent there money simliar to that of Man U, Chelsea and Liverpool? (that is your argumetn, just incase you forgot) Care to remind me what players Man U and Villa have been competing to sign? "Fact is the only way to compete with the top clubs is to sign the players the the top clubs thmeselves want to sign" That ring a bell? There miles apart and dont ad anything to your argument whatsoever. Villa are 3rd, there most expensive player is £12m Milner and that was after 3 years working there way up. Ours is £10m in our second season working our way up. Bassong, Guthrie, Jonas and Collo are proof so far that this system is working, what if we sing another 4 players next summer of this claibre what do you think that will leave our squad capable of achieivng. Stop being such a stalwart, get behind the team and start being more positive, the tell tale signs of success are there, its just a minority of people who dont want to reconginse that and for the life of me i cant understand why.

no ambition ? Villa bigger and more ambitious than Newcastle ? Well, they acted it in the past, but not since 1992 they haven't been, until now that is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't N'Zogbia make noises about leaving when the previous regime was incumbent? correct me if I'm wrong, but he didn't go, did he ? How do you get your argumetns so water-tight? Whats your feelings on Bassong? Good signing by the scouting team? thought after the Coventry game he looked good as a left back and he had something. He's superb as a centre back. As for the scouting team, most people get some signings right, credit where it is due. Shame they also found xisco and that other bloke, whatisname, Fernandez ? . All our managers have made some good signings though, the real shame is that the good signings made have been offset by selling a player the manager wanted to keep and not giving him the money to buy his own player(s) with it rather than looking like its offset the fee for Colocinni. Dalglish signed Given, Solano, Speed, Hamman. Gullit bought Dyer and Ferguson. Roeder bought Martins and Duff. Allardyce bought Beye, Enrique. Even the fuckwit Souness bought Owen [lets not speculate Shearer played a big part and keep it consistent as Souness was the manager] but lost that by kicking out Bellamy and Robert I've explained this before. Good clubs bring in players to strengthen the team as the manager sees fit, not sell one to buy one and make money or save money from it all. My quibble is with the overall attitude of the club, and the fact that they are behaving like a 2nd rate club, which became clear to me some time ago. They will make some good signing and bad signings, but aren't looking to add players to the current good ones to the extent that they have shown ambition to put the club where it should be. Simple fact is, even this "buying up the youngsters" stuff has been grossly over-exaggerated on here. People make out the club has never done it before, I pointed this out and it led to the thread being locked. If you want to compete with the trophy winning clubs you have to seriously compete with them. Stop making excuses and making naive suggestions that it can be done on the cheap, because it can't. I'll give you some more examples. Who are the last good youngsters manu have bought ? I'll tell you who they have bought. Nani (21) for 17m, Anderson (19) for 18m. We won't even mention Tevez, Rooney and Ronaldo. Even Arsenal have bought Walcott (17) for 12m, Nasri for 15m. Liverpool have bought Torres for 23m. I won't mention Robbie Keane because of his age, but he has cost them close to 20m quid. We have, in the young player stakes, apart from Bassong, bought Xisco for 5m, Guthrie for 2.5m this summer. People like you think that our scouting team are going to find players like this for 2 or 3m quid or less ? Do you think people like Ferguson, Benitez and Wenger are amateurs and are going to allow someone like Denis Wise to beat them to the best players ? The only chance we have of signing these sort of players, is if we are in the Champions league and matching these teams, or being seen to be at least trying to get up with them, as soon as possible. Thats reality. Not dreaming. Your dreaming a little to be honest - we blew that oppurtunity to keep up with the top 4 in terms of spending power the second we sacked SBR and the second Abrhamovich came to town, its jsut you who fails to recognise that, look at Villa, they are pursuiing pretty much the exact same thing we are doing, not going for the giants of the game, like Torres or Anderson like you say but the same sort of targets as us, young up coming players for the future, much like we did under SBR and much like we are doing now. They are 3rd. I hope signings like Bassong can continue for as long as possilbe as far as im concerned, the quality of the player IS the most important thing, nothing else and if every single window we make a profit i couldnt give a fuck, as long as the club continue to imporve the squad with gems like Bassong and Guthrie. Villa is the ideal model at the moment, the ironic thing with them is that arguable there most important players are Carew (5m), Young (9.5m) and Agbonglahor (youth), yet again hihgligting the fact that quality is the most important thing, NOT the amount of money. The game has changed.

no ambition ? Villa bigger and more ambitious than Newcastle ? Well, they acted it in the past, but not since 1992 they haven't been, until now that is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't N'Zogbia make noises about leaving when the previous regime was incumbent? correct me if I'm wrong, but he didn't go, did he ? How do you get your argumetns so water-tight? Whats your feelings on Bassong? Good signing by the scouting team?

What makes you say that?

Id love that but i actully think they're the hardest type of players to sign, they;re arguably the most talent and gifted players on the pitch because they're game is so natural and cerebral. I actually think the Martins Owen combination was working ok, i was surpirsed at how different they games actually are and how little they actually take the same positions. The balance still isnt right becasue with them we are missing 2 things, aerial ability and a decent hold up and link up play. The bit in bold i agree with massively. It's unfortunately where Viduka comes in, unfortunately we need to rely on his fitness, not ability (not in question) if he were fit every game and could last 90mins each time, then as we've seen its lethal. Maybe we really missed a trick with Baptista, strong, technical, good shot, grafter, relatively injury free, could have filled the Viduka role in a 433 or 442 then even dropped back as the attacking mid running with the ball at players, extra threat at corners (and protection) and link up with chosen strikers upfront. I'd be quite happy if we didn't directly replaced Owen an brought in a Diego style (not him, too famous now, but a copycat version direct from Brazil) the balanced the team properly with a reliable Viduka replacement, i personally was hoping Xisco was up to the job, you never know, his talent lies in the future rather than the now, but totally wasted atm doing nothing. Agree with all that, its the reason we played so well towards the end of last season, we actually had a fantatstic balance with all 3 players who were actually completely different. Relying on Viduka is too much of a gambl though. Actually a good shout with Baptista, i never really considered him too much, didnt think his output was that great but id actually think he could still be a good player in england, he has the physicality to suceed in england as well.

Owen might leave in the summer? Meh.

I dont see why thats a bad thing, im essentailly saying that effectively they're the same stats. The difference is that if those 15 goals are scored by other players it means we are a totally different proposition for opposing teams. Threat from all over the park instead of just via Plan A. We might only score the same 25 goals but I think the chances are pretty slim if we had three or four players all capable of scoring goals. Ie we'd more than likely score more. Couldnt agree more, i actually hadnt considered it to that extent, rather just looked at the relevance of the actual stats. Great post, that. With that in mind I'm gonna take my findings and feeling over to the Owen contract thread.