fredbob

Got a pretty decent record with teams as interim manager. Very confident he'd be willing to take the role on an interim basis. would take him.

When you say "so long" you actually mean 10 days (?), right? Were you one of non exisiting people who have alway hated the clubs secrecy and hated that the media knew 'nothing'? If so, then i suppose 10 days IS a long time, then again, for me i was happy to wait - especially as we dont know the nature of the meeting that Ahley had with keegan and especially as how Ashley was on 'business' at the time. Still doesnt equate to forcing him out, especially after having put in so much of his personal welath into the club, bringing back a hugely popular figure, regenerating the youth system and improving our scouting sytem beyond the realms of the major clubs in the major leagues. He hasnt even been given ONE chance to rectify his one major mistake - which was employing Keegan in the first place. As for your diluted protests - who's to say? Moot point really. Ok, so Mclaren was one of 4 manager i mentioned - although strictly speaking silverware will always been on your permanent record of achievments, not " got a team from second division to near the top of the premier league - with a fair bit of cash". Pedantic i know, but unfortunately true. The bottom line is that he IS part of a group of mediocre managers, any defence of him is defence based purely on personal feelings for the man, becasue someone with equal record at antoerh club wouldnt get a second hearing here, and that isnt subjectivity. As for your final question - it depends on what side you view the argument - if you genuinely believe that Wise hasbeen indermining Keegan from the start and Keegan actually had NO say on the signings then it would be Wise who should of left - and Keegan should of left when he was first undermined as his principles are so strong. But if you view the argument as Keegans targets not fitting into the policy of the club and possibly dragging his heels over the situation forcing Wise to sign players over his head without his authoriy then maybe Keegan was right to leave. As you can see, in both scenarios Keegan doesnt come of favourably so i'd say that for the best interests of the club Keegan should definitely of left and replaced with a manager who could defintiely work within a team structure. There is also a case for Wise becoming an antagonist and him therefore leaving as well.

Oh aye, dont get me wrong i was happy with what keegan was doing - in fact supremeley happy with that way the club was going upto the end of the transfer window- thats not to say that had the window shut under normal circumstance i wouldnt of been lambasting the board for the lack of depth in the squad, becasue i would of. My point is that there seems to be a huge majority of fans who have been thinking with their hearts and not with there heads - they've prioritised the wrong thing in my opinion. As you say, it's no good having the sytems if you dont have someone who can manage the players - well it turns out that Keegan couldnt manage the players becasue he couldnt fit into the system so he leaves. Thats the simple equation. We should of voiced our concerns, voiced our unhappiness at a good start being wasted and politics undermining the fans and the club but thats as far as it shouldof gone, forcing the owner out seems like such a disproportionate reaction. Losing keegan wouldnt of been the end of the world for this club. the stats is a very relevant point to be fair - he is a mediocre manager, he doesnt havent a record which is that much better than the likes of Curbishly, Allardyce, Veneable even Mclaren has more solid achievemnts than him. The point is that his major managerial achievment was over 15 years ago and the fans have put that sentimentality above the sytem that Ashley and co have tried to input, and for the life of me i cant see why, hence my belief that the fans are thinking with there hearts not their heads. football is a passionate game- but when it comes to deciding the future of your entire club - what your heart says should be a million miles away from what you should actually be doing.

IF Ashley cannot sell NUFC and the club goes down, you will be proved right especially about damaging the club. On the other hand, any new owners will know that they cant take NUFC over and f*** about with the fans and take them for granted like Mike Ashley and his mates did. This could and should ultimately result in us getting a more stable club that is ran in a far more professional manner than what it ever was under Mike Ashleys "team" of non communicators. Nufc fans will only take to an owner who's gonna lavish them with transfer funds - they're too impatient to see a long term policy and system take shape especially at the expense of a statistically mediocre manager. How many Abramovich's are there out there? Theres something like 2000 billlionaires out there, how many do you think would be keen to blow there money on nufc? A club which now has a history of forcing out the previous incumbents, maybe even 2 of them. How many of these billoinaires at a guess do you think would be keen to own a club where the fans are more powerful than the man with the purse strings? Im still unsure how you've come to the conclusion that he's taken the fans for granted. As for your final dig - the club spends its entire tenure keeping a privacy shield away from the media and with that also the fans and the club is congratulated for keeping out the poisonous press, but the fans couldnt wait 2 weeks to see how things transpired before the club made a statement and is lambasted for the lack of communication.....damned if you do, damned if you dont. You really couldnt make it up. Rubbish, frankly. Was there any sign or sound of fans' revolt in the air in the last few weeks of last season? The majority were happy we seemed to be making slow but steady progress under Keegan, with the promise of the squad being significantly - but NOT spectacularly - in the summer. It wasn't. KK felt betrayed. So do the fans. Why would we look to revolt at the end of last season? If you're trying to say that nufc fans would be happy with an owner who has a long term plan for the club with slow steady progress, then what was wrong with Ashley's plan? Putting aside the still unknown circumstances of Keegans departures, what problems did you see with a club who looked to invest in younger players from around the whole of europe and not just the big clubs of the major leagues, looking to develop them and making them stars for the club? I am more than happy to admit i was very dissapointed with the lack of acitvity surrounding this club - however with a club that was rowing in seperate directions i can see, but not understand why we had so little activity. EDIT: The sad fact of this case is that the fans are using the lack of numbers as another stick to beat Ashley with (which they are well within there rights) but are conviniently forgetting that the clubs squad has dramatically improved. Which was more important out the 2? Put it simply, would you rather have a good sized squad with similar quality to last year or would you rather have a similar sizeds squad which was better than last year? I know which is more important - you have to ask yourself if you do and if you do you'll understand where you arguments fall down. Only just logged back on now, so apologies for late reply. Of course there is nothing wrong with a plan to curb over-spending on trophy signings and search for talented youngsters worldwide. But Ashley pursued that plan with men totally ill equipped to follow Arsenal's lead. Dennis f*****g Wise and an ex Chelsea steward ffs. Had he put a Frank Arneson type in to do the job of finding talent, we'd have found some worth having, Keegan would still be here and the fans would be saying nowt. As it is, Ashley's stuck by men who have unearthed precious little in the way of decent young talent (Kadar aside, perhaps) and made one undeniably good senior signing (Gutierrez), while ignoring blatant shortcomings (lack of full-backs, creative midfielders) in a squad that you, bizarrely, claim has been "dramatically" strengthened. That's not to mention that Ashley himself was promising corporate fans a "wow" signing before the close of the transfer window..... Hold on - so you dont think the squad has improved dramatically? By getting rid of a few personnel the squad improved - by adding 6 players of which at least 4 look to be good quality in my book is quite a dramatic improvment especially since we havent had a transfer window equal to this since the days of SBR (in terms of quality). How you can therefore castigate a transfer team based on that strength of evidence, to the extent you think they should leave the club, ill never know. Think about it. Yes, they did make mistakes and they did not address certain positions, that we know of (remeber Keegan was very optimistic after the Milner sale saying 3-4 players were in the pipeline - who's to say the positions were being addressed but didnt come off?), but they did the number one thing that needed doing and they improved the quality of the squad. You also have to rememeber that Keegan seemed to buckle on the last day of the season and was unhappy with having either Xisco or Nacho hoisted onto him, there was no suggestion that he was unhappy with the lack of personnel at certain positions, making me believe that you are looking for another stick to beat Ashley with. The bottom line is that we finally seem to have a system which did seem to be paying dividends in its first season together but we still value the whims of a statisitcally mediocre manager over the direction of the club and that for me is unbelievable.

IF Ashley cannot sell NUFC and the club goes down, you will be proved right especially about damaging the club. On the other hand, any new owners will know that they cant take NUFC over and f*** about with the fans and take them for granted like Mike Ashley and his mates did. This could and should ultimately result in us getting a more stable club that is ran in a far more professional manner than what it ever was under Mike Ashleys "team" of non communicators. Nufc fans will only take to an owner who's gonna lavish them with transfer funds - they're too impatient to see a long term policy and system take shape especially at the expense of a statistically mediocre manager. How many Abramovich's are there out there? Theres something like 2000 billlionaires out there, how many do you think would be keen to blow there money on nufc? A club which now has a history of forcing out the previous incumbents, maybe even 2 of them. How many of these billoinaires at a guess do you think would be keen to own a club where the fans are more powerful than the man with the purse strings? Im still unsure how you've come to the conclusion that he's taken the fans for granted. As for your final dig - the club spends its entire tenure keeping a privacy shield away from the media and with that also the fans and the club is congratulated for keeping out the poisonous press, but the fans couldnt wait 2 weeks to see how things transpired before the club made a statement and is lambasted for the lack of communication.....damned if you do, damned if you dont. You really couldnt make it up. Rubbish, frankly. Was there any sign or sound of fans' revolt in the air in the last few weeks of last season? The majority were happy we seemed to be making slow but steady progress under Keegan, with the promise of the squad being significantly - but NOT spectacularly - in the summer. It wasn't. KK felt betrayed. So do the fans. Why would we look to revolt at the end of last season? If you're trying to say that nufc fans would be happy with an owner who has a long term plan for the club with slow steady progress, then what was wrong with Ashley's plan? Putting aside the still unknown circumstances of Keegans departures, what problems did you see with a club who looked to invest in younger players from around the whole of europe and not just the big clubs of the major leagues, looking to develop them and making them stars for the club? I am more than happy to admit i was very dissapointed with the lack of acitvity surrounding this club - however with a club that was rowing in seperate directions i can see, but not understand why we had so little activity. EDIT: The sad fact of this case is that the fans are using the lack of numbers as another stick to beat Ashley with (which they are well within there rights) but are conviniently forgetting that the clubs squad has dramatically improved. Which was more important out the 2? Put it simply, would you rather have a good sized squad with similar quality to last year or would you rather have a similar sizeds squad which was better than last year? I know which is more important - you have to ask yourself if you do and if you do you'll understand where you arguments fall down.

IF Ashley cannot sell NUFC and the club goes down, you will be proved right especially about damaging the club. On the other hand, any new owners will know that they cant take NUFC over and f*** about with the fans and take them for granted like Mike Ashley and his mates did. This could and should ultimately result in us getting a more stable club that is ran in a far more professional manner than what it ever was under Mike Ashleys "team" of non communicators. Nufc fans will only take to an owner who's gonna lavish them with transfer funds - they're too impatient to see a long term policy and system take shape especially at the expense of a statistically mediocre manager. How many Abramovich's are there out there? Theres something like 2000 billlionaires out there, how many do you think would be keen to blow there money on nufc? A club which now has a history of forcing out the previous incumbents, maybe even 2 of them. How many of these billoinaires at a guess do you think would be keen to own a club where the fans are more powerful than the man with the purse strings? Im still unsure how you've come to the conclusion that he's taken the fans for granted. As for your final dig - the club spends its entire tenure keeping a privacy shield away from the media and with that also the fans and the club is congratulated for keeping out the poisonous press, but the fans couldnt wait 2 weeks to see how things transpired before the club made a statement and is lambasted for the lack of communication.....damned if you do, damned if you dont. You really couldnt make it up.

From today's Journal. Don't think the vocal protests will have made us a more attractive proposition for the future, but time will tell. oh come on man!! do you want to be known as BogTron or BigJudas from now on? how can you even suggest that you might even slightly (and by slightly i mean a speck of dust) agree with the notion that the fans may have bit off their nose to spite their face. of course the phrases "owner wants to sell" & "squad is small" couldve been highlighted too and the first is undeniably the biggest factor. the root cause behind these two facts is the same root cause behind the supporters protesting, so ultimately that's what makes the job a poisoned chalice. the fans protesting is symptomatic of the club's misrule. it probably doesnt help as such as it can feed the inaccurate & misleading stereotype that we're too demaning but at the same time many would realise that just as the fans vent off during lows they're also a huge resource, even attraction, when we're doing well - managing a team in front of 52,000 relatively vocal fans is more attractive than managing fulham, for instance. Hold on, am i reading this right, in essence you're saying one of the main reasins the fans are protesting are becasue Ashley wasnts to sell? I have to be reading that completely wrong, shirley? In my eys the fans are protesting becasue "the messiah" has walked and its ALL the boards fault, so much so that it's forced them to have to threaten physical violence upon the owners, those poor mis understood creatures - always being misrepresented in the media. Of course NUFC fans are f***ing delusional, they still have no f***ing idea how much damage they've done to this club.

Like what? Do you honestly think people would get together and protest against bringing Keegan back? That is possibly the most stupid thing I've ever read on this board. Ah worded s****.. I meant getting Ashley to stay You say it as though supporting Ashley is mutally exclusive to not supporting Keegan in the eyes of the populus.

Statistics, statistics. Allardyce and Curbishley couldnt come close to rejuvinating not only the club, but the area as a whole like Kevin Keegan did. Thats worth almost as much as a piece of silverware. So, basically what you're saying is that you're thiking with your heart? Pretty much proved my argument for me. Thanks.

It's very similar to that of David O'Leary IMO. Another ringing endorsement!! The list of simliarly 'mediocre' (tin hat) managers i imiagine is endless, i was unhappy with his appointment then he began to win me over but no matter what i resented that he and apparently the majority of the fans wanted the club to march to his beat when quite clearly this should only be afforded to managers who have a reputation and record which demand that honour. Emphatic no. Never go back. unfortunaltey the mob have spoken and i genuinely believe he'll be the next man in. Would be interesting to see the reaction of the crowd if he isnt appointed assuming we're taken over....

Noone thinking with there heads here, just there heart which i suppose is fair enough. However would just like to point out that people are wanting Keegan off the basis of something he's achieved over 15 years ago and hasnt recreated anywhere else since. His main qualification for people who dont want to acknowledge this fact is that he's improved every club he's been at....hardly a ringing endorsement in my opinion. He's only managed 2 clubs in the Premiership, us and Man City and is major managerial achievment is something he achieved with us 15 years ago.. At Man City he estabilished them (just about) as a premiership team. What he achieved 15 years ago isnt replicable nowadays becasue the gap is so huge financially, whereas then it wasnt so. He's quit everywhere he's been for varying reasons, and had failed at the England job as has many. His record quite frankly is no greater than Sam Allardyces or even Alan Curbishley, anyone care to point out anything majorly wrong with this statement feel free. I have no doubt that he's a man who in the right circumstances is the outstanding candidate for the job becasue his main qualification is that he appeals to the masses, which we can safely say is now the most important qualification for the club. For me, as you can see, no matter how much ive loved him in the past and loved what he's achieved for the club he's a man who managerial achievments ALONE doesnt warrant consideration for the job anyone else with similar qualifications on similar timescales would be equally cast aside. So for me, id like to see a manager with a solid record who plays nice football, the standout candidate for me is Deschamps.

So Terim, Zico and Deschamps effectively openly put there names to the job and yet we're still considering the likes of Steve Bruce as 'our only viable option' because we're so in the shit. Sounds like self pitying to me. I know things are bad - but i honestly dont think they are as bad as people are making out, Keegan is replaceable.

Dont hear many denials though....seems like a strange smear if it wasnt true....as despicable as the smear was something about it rings true with me, it just seemed far too specific. You dont respect Keegan for not wanting to get into a childish mud-slinging match through the press ? Two ways of looking at it. I prefer to assume Keegan wouldnt lower himself to such levels. Thats not the point though - the point was whether it was true or if it isnt - the nature of the "leak" suggest to me that it was true which is why you have to ask yourself was keegan really rowing in the same direction as the club reagrading transfer policies - and if not - why? and what should the boards response be if it IS the case? To me the only response would be to sack Keegan or undermine him. I don't get where you're coming from with this leak stuff. Whose to say it was even a leak? Could it not just be media 2+2=48? Even if it was a leak, it stinks of trying to save face and paint KK out to be the bad guy to try and win fans back. the bottom line is that the article is dangerously close to being slanderous if its not true, which im sure you know is illegal....hence my belief in it. Thats why no respose is telling in my eyes. By that logic, 90% of what you read in the sports pages these days must be verging on illegal. So you believe everything you read in the paper, because if it isn't true it's close to being slanderous. Clubs leak things like this every day of the week to newspapers. Do you know what slander and defamation is? Do you know what you sound like when you asked that? Like a cunt.

Dont hear many denials though....seems like a strange smear if it wasnt true....as despicable as the smear was something about it rings true with me, it just seemed far too specific. You dont respect Keegan for not wanting to get into a childish mud-slinging match through the press ? Two ways of looking at it. I prefer to assume Keegan wouldnt lower himself to such levels. Thats not the point though - the point was whether it was true or if it isnt - the nature of the "leak" suggest to me that it was true which is why you have to ask yourself was keegan really rowing in the same direction as the club reagrading transfer policies - and if not - why? and what should the boards response be if it IS the case? To me the only response would be to sack Keegan or undermine him. I don't get where you're coming from with this leak stuff. Whose to say it was even a leak? Could it not just be media 2+2=48? Even if it was a leak, it stinks of trying to save face and paint KK out to be the bad guy to try and win fans back. the bottom line is that the article is dangerously close to being slanderous if its not true, which im sure you know is illegal....hence my belief in it. Thats why no respose is telling in my eyes. By that logic, 90% of what you read in the sports pages these days must be verging on illegal. So you believe everything you read in the paper, because if it isn't true it's close to being slanderous. Clubs leak things like this every day of the week to newspapers. Do you know what slander and defamation is? Yes, I know fine well, thank you. Saying a manger who has just resigned wanted to buy certain world superstars is far from slander, and even if it is a leak from the club, KK is a bigger man than to respond. We've seen plenty of ineptness when it comes to the club dealing with the media, so I have no reason to believe a word they come out with at the minute. I guess is where we take seprate paths and say goodbye - for me the nature of the article was pretty slanderous - it was in essence calling him delusional and off his rocker. I guess thats where i base my arguments from - maybe im wrong.

Dont hear many denials though....seems like a strange smear if it wasnt true....as despicable as the smear was something about it rings true with me, it just seemed far too specific. You dont respect Keegan for not wanting to get into a childish mud-slinging match through the press ? Two ways of looking at it. I prefer to assume Keegan wouldnt lower himself to such levels. Thats not the point though - the point was whether it was true or if it isnt - the nature of the "leak" suggest to me that it was true which is why you have to ask yourself was keegan really rowing in the same direction as the club reagrading transfer policies - and if not - why? and what should the boards response be if it IS the case? To me the only response would be to sack Keegan or undermine him. I don't get where you're coming from with this leak stuff. Whose to say it was even a leak? Could it not just be media 2+2=48? Even if it was a leak, it stinks of trying to save face and paint KK out to be the bad guy to try and win fans back. the bottom line is that the article is dangerously close to being slanderous if its not true, which im sure you know is illegal....hence my belief in it. Thats why no respose is telling in my eyes. By that logic, 90% of what you read in the sports pages these days must be verging on illegal. So you believe everything you read in the paper, because if it isn't true it's close to being slanderous. Clubs leak things like this every day of the week to newspapers. Do you know what slander and defamation is?

The position in itself - I havent got an issue with but i think he made a mistake in actually employing Dennis Wise. He shoudl maybe have looked into the back ground history and thought about how it might havebeen viewed by fans. + allowing to work from London doesnt appear to have been the best decision either. Again, I think I would like to see the structure work too but he appears to have made some fundamental errors in setting it up Id agree with that - excapt for one thing - keegan said he gave his blessing for Wise to come up - surely he;d of known about Wise history with the club....said something like out of the candidates available Wise was the best choice....

The old system wasn't the problem it was the poor choice of managers. Woo takes responsibility for failure in your wonderful system? Its not been a failure - yet. Not after 6 months. Ashley HAS to take the blame at the end of the day, i accept that but i dont think the fans hounding him out is anyway near acceptabe, hence to blame for the mess we're in. (The crux of this Thread). I still think that Keegan put Ahlsey in a difficult spot though.... Has the squad improved to the extent where you think that 4 years down the line with similar windows we would be challenging for Europe? "similar windows" is a bit of a red herring that - assuming the next 8 windows would be exactly the same with the club rowing in oppositie directions? To answer your question anyway,Honesty - yes i do. Jonas - excellent Colo- good Guthrie - good Bassong - good Nacho - dont know Xisco - dont know at least 4 quality signings out of 6 at least with a club that wasnt completely rowing in the same direction - not to mention the deadwood that was removed. My major conern was the lack of quanitity which i was ready to lambast before this al blew up. Who's to say it will be the same for the next 8 windows.

Dont hear many denials though....seems like a strange smear if it wasnt true....as despicable as the smear was something about it rings true with me, it just seemed far too specific. You dont respect Keegan for not wanting to get into a childish mud-slinging match through the press ? Two ways of looking at it. I prefer to assume Keegan wouldnt lower himself to such levels. Thats not the point though - the point was whether it was true or if it isnt - the nature of the "leak" suggest to me that it was true which is why you have to ask yourself was keegan really rowing in the same direction as the club reagrading transfer policies - and if not - why? and what should the boards response be if it IS the case? To me the only response would be to sack Keegan or undermine him. I don't get where you're coming from with this leak stuff. Whose to say it was even a leak? Could it not just be media 2+2=48? Even if it was a leak, it stinks of trying to save face and paint KK out to be the bad guy to try and win fans back. the bottom line is that the article is dangerously close to being slanderous if its not true, which im sure you know is illegal....hence my belief in it. Thats why no respose is telling in my eyes.

The old system wasn't the problem it was the poor choice of managers. Woo takes responsibility for failure in your wonderful system? Its not been a failure - yet. Not after 6 months. Ashley HAS to take the blame at the end of the day, i accept that but i dont think the fans hounding him out is anyway near acceptabe, hence to blame for the mess we're in. (The crux of this Thread). I still think that Keegan put Ahlsey in a difficult spot though....

So if he is at fault which to be honest i can agree with ( he shouldnt of employed keegan in the first place, naiveity, etc,etc), does that mean that it is still right to try and force him out after one mistake - albeit a massive one, which wouldnt of affected the club massively had he follwed up with a good appointment which was perfectly viable? the protests just seemed so disproportionate to the issue in the grand scheme of things. Keegan is replaceable there are better managers out there and there are managers out there who have achieved more than him who would of been interested in the job. and which 'one' was that? humour me..... I appreciate you want me to do your work for you . . . Well, avoided. His one major mistake was appointing Keegan to fit in a system which wouldnt of suited Keegan. What other things that you class as mistakes? I persoanlly value the system over the individual manager due to the situation we found ourselves in with the old system. Appointing Dennis Wise ?? Part of the system which i value more than Keegan at this point and time - im depserate to see this policy come to fruitiion or at least definitely fail like the old policy. The playing staff so far would suggest that mabye it might work over the course of a few years, i can certainky wait.

Go on..... Deschamps, Terim, arguably Zico. Maybe even Houllier would have a stab at the job.... 2 for sure anyway. Dechamps who quit two clubs for disagreements with the board? Achieved more than Keegan - CHECK Zico who won one title out of two with the Turkish Chelsea? to be fair i didnt name him as a definite - can be argued either way Houllier who spent 10s of millions and never came within a million miles of the title? Sound familiar? Lets forget about the shit load of silverware he's won mind...also came 2nd in the league. Chose to ignore Terim then? UEFA cup winner and Euro 2008 Semi finalist?

Please dont tell us you believe that I do. It had a deny it if you dare ring to it. The same article mentioned Riise, Dunne and Woodgate which also seemed to ring true...."wheres the residual value in those" But Lampard man... you really think Kevin is so deluded he thought he could pull Lampard away from Champions League football, probably the Champions elect for this season, and even from the clutches of Jose and Inter Milan. Completelty see your point - i wont dare have the audacity to say yeh he did want Lampard and he did genuinely believe he could get him.....although....there would of been no tranfer fee with Lampy... Some of the thing that were said earlierin the sumer gave me the impression that he may of thought that money was no object - i certainly got that impression from some interviews...who's to say. All im saying is that my gut tells me there is something in that story - you dont let a slanderous story pass you by to be the bigger man. theres laws to help you from that.

So if he is at fault which to be honest i can agree with ( he shouldnt of employed keegan in the first place, naiveity, etc,etc), does that mean that it is still right to try and force him out after one mistake - albeit a massive one, which wouldnt of affected the club massively had he follwed up with a good appointment which was perfectly viable? the protests just seemed so disproportionate to the issue in the grand scheme of things. Keegan is replaceable there are better managers out there and there are managers out there who have achieved more than him who would of been interested in the job. and which 'one' was that? humour me..... I appreciate you want me to do your work for you . . . Well, avoided. His one major mistake was appointing Keegan to fit in a system which wouldnt of suited Keegan. What other things that you class as mistakes? I persoanlly value the system over the individual manager due to the situation we found ourselves in with the old system.

Go on..... Deschamps, Terim, arguably Zico. Maybe even Houllier would have a stab at the job.... 2 for sure anyway.

Please dont tell us you believe that I do. It had a deny it if you dare ring to it. The same article mentioned Riise, Dunne and Woodgate which also seemed to ring true...."wheres the residual value in those"