Kid Icarus

There's a huge amount of room to manoeuvre between doing nothing at all and moving stadium and I don't think anyone is suggesting doing nothing at all tbf. For me it's expand SJP or at the absolute extreme, begrudgingly move to Leazes Park if no expansion is possible. Personally think we're approaching the latter-stages of a PSR that stops us competing, but we'll see.

Or lobby against/wait out PSR...

Exactly. You're making the point I am just coming to a different conclusion. Teams who are in the running after the halfway point of the season have earned the right to say they're in a title race imo, but agree to disagree I think.

The assertion that we need to move if we're ever going to move the PSR needle. That it's good for people who were previously priced out and are now locked out.

I know, but you're dipping into a different discussion with the context removed here.

Okay, fiiiiiine. 07/08: top with 9 games to go, finished 3rd 09/10: 2 points off the top with a game in hand in January, finished 4th 10/11: 3 points off the top with 11 games to go, a game in hand and only +3 GD to make Up, finished 4th. 13/14: Top in February, finished 4th. 15/16: Top in January, finished 2nd. That's not even counting the pre Christmas form they often had. I'm not ignoring it like, they've won 4 FA Cups in the 18 years since they moved. That's the point, it's not indicative of a trophy haul that would be worse or improved upon depending solely based on a stadium move.

Not really, spending more in order to compete doesn't automatically mean outspending. Will just have to agree to disagree on Arsenal's trophy chances and spending because I lost count of the amount of times they were in the title race only to fall short, not to mention the Champions League final. Arsenal's net spend when they were paying off the stadium (2006-13) was £3m per season. Again this isn't controversial or anything, it's a fairly well-known factor in why they couldn't spend and therefore fell short, it was a paltry sum at the time for a club like Arsenal, regardless of what other clubs were spending. I agree that it improved their business model in the long-run. What it didn't do (and what was the original argument I was replying to) was improve their trophy haul.

Wenger didn't need to outspend. There were plenty of years post Mourinho, pre-Guardiola that Arsenal were in the running for the league and Champions League and couldn't spend because they were paying off their stadium. That's not controversial or anything, its a pretty well-known factor in how Wenger was hamstrung post-Highbury.

Their major trophy haul has decreased since moving from Highbury and paying off the stadium under Wenger was blamed for their inability to spend money on players, so not sure about that one.

No, the argument was that moving hasn't helped Arsenal in terms of trophy haul, not that staying would have helped them more than moving has.

I think we do tbf, the points being made are counter-arguments. If your argument is 'we need to leave SJP for reasons x, y, and z' then making the point that those reasons are fallacies and therefore not worth losing SJP for are points worth making. Some arguments - like wanting a stadium capacity over 65k - are fair enough, no counter-arguments there aside from just disagreeing with each other about whether that's worth losing SJP for.

I wouldn't basically, it's peanuts. I'd focus on lobbying against or waiting out PSR so that we can increase our commercial revenue and then use that as the means to spend and grow. But there are other options as well with more 'legit' sponsorship or through buying and selling players.

I think it depends what you mean. As I was saying I think the PSR/always a step-behind argument is a bit of a non-starter. If the argument is just that you want 75 or 80k in the ground then I get that like, I would think SJP won't be able to go beyond 65K although personally I think that's about the sweet spot.

Can't speak for everyone obviously, but that's not it for me. It's more that this assertion that we need to build a new stadium if we want to become a global player is a fallacy basically.

Basically you're saying that the soul is in the fanbase. I'm saying I agree with you and that our fanbase imo lacks it.