St. Maximin

Mate I’ve put some detailed stuff in here trying to outline the complexities, which I think has been fair and balanced, but it’s often only the odd sentences that you’re responding to. I’ve written tonnes about what a difficult situation this is for Christians, who don’t want to hold those views but feel they have to and become conflicted. Surely we can understand that without agreeing, rather than seeing them just as people full of hatred. Like I said it’s hardly stopping many of them from having friendships with gay people so maybe not everyone sees their personal views in quite the same way?

I appreciate your honesty here but I just don’t think that first claim is right at all. I know I keep mentioning it but I know lots of Christians so I’m in a good place to comment here and I’m a bit disappointed that gets overlooked tbh. There are loads of things that put me off Christianity including the homosexuality teaching, but I know they believe certain behaviour is ‘wrong’ rather than being gay, in the same way they think lots of other behaviours (that they acknowledge they do themselves) are wrong. If you ask me that’s stupid and it leads to all sorts of unpleasant behaviour towards certain communities including LGBTQ, but I don’t think we should disguise that with the average religious person who happens to have an opinion on something but doesn’t want to treat people any differently for it. And like I’ve said before, a lot of people are very conflicted and uncomfortable with their own beliefs, especially when they happen to have gay friends and family. So it’s important we appreciate the complexities and struggles here rather than seeing this as a black and white issue. I know plenty of LGBTQ people that have friends and family who are Christian and they quite clearly do like each other as people even if they have disagreements over things. I used to play for a sports team affiliated with a conservative evangelical church (though I reckon under 50% were churchgoers). There was a gay couple that joined and one of them was made captain - they were fully aware what the church thought, but knew they were welcomed in and not judged because lifestyle choices don’t mean you should be thought of as a worse person or treated differently (even if some people tragically do get that bit wrong). I’m sure most of us have also been in jobs where there were gay colleagues and Christian/Muslim colleagues and chances are the latter might have had similar views to Guehi but it’s never talked about or seen as an issue. This doesn’t mean that views on, say gay marriage, should be seen as justifiable. I felt it was ridiculous that some people told me I was supposed to be against it even as a Christian. However, I know Christians are very much in an uncomfortable and conflicted position over it purely because they do love and care for others but believe they have to be consistent to the Bible (and often I think they aren’t, but that’s their interpretation). Sensitive topic for me still even as an agnostic who thinks religion is ridiculous, because I don’t want to be told my family and friends aren’t loving even if they have some puzzling views.

Appreciate you’re approaching this fairly and it’s clearly a sensitive issue that I certainly don’t think Guehi has handled well. I sincerely hope the squad stays likeable when you guys get to watch them! But how do you know he doesn’t like you mate? This is the point I’ve been trying to say and I don’t think it’s helpful to anyone to infer someone’s views are hateful because of a poorly thought out gesture. He might love everyone but feel he has to have certain views on what is right and wrong based on his (in our view, backward) environment that he’s been brought up in? It doesn’t mean he likes the LGBTQ community any less or not want them at their games, clubs etc. I know this sort of thing because it’s the environment I was in for over 20 years - typically loving and kind people who don’t dislike people because of their sexual orientation and think everyone including themselves are sinners. I appreciate the topic of gay marriage becomes very difficult here, so it ends up becoming conflicting to them and likely that’s happened with Guehi here. There are many Christians the above doesn’t apply to mind, but thankfully no evidence of that with Guehi.

Fair, but the fans did by and large encourage the takeover. Hope my summary above explained things . I see no evidence he’s being the awful human he’s been made out to be.

Ultimately it just seems a bit confusing to me if we welcome being owned by a country with explicitly oppressive views on homosexuality (among other things), but strongly reject buying a defender because he writes that he loves Jesus on a rainbow armband. Anyway sorry to get involved this again . I think Guehi is a very good defender and would be a great signing for us, though we’re at the point where our ageing defenders are still playing really well and Botman to come back, so might seem like we need to split the money across the team to provide more depth than necessarily a new starter.

In Guehi’s case along with others I’m just still not sure why this has led to people making such inferences about what he thinks. Kimbo has summed it up well in saying he’s likely stuck between backward views from his environment and trying to be a good person (and let’s be honest, everything else we’ve seen suggests that’s what he is). It’s pretty clear to me he’s conflicted and also probably a bit stupid - but he’s a product of his upbringing and he sees the world differently, which could mean doing things that are unintentionally offensive. That doesn’t mean he hates gays, or even doesn’t love them - he might have different views on what’s right or wrong, but that’s not an attack on them as people. Say what you like about that (naturally I’m not a fan); it’s a common view in religious circles but most of them don’t get put in positions where they have to wear armbands so normally just stay quiet. And yeah I know the armband doesn’t mean an attack on religion, but some people interpret things in their own ways like with McLean and poppies etc. The key thing for me is while it’s a stupid move there’s no evidence of any malice and it’s not fair at all to make assumptions about what he meant, yet some people are keen to see the absolute worst. Ironically it’s clearly not a black and white issue. There’s a pretty big distinction between wanting people stoned for their sex lives and having a personal view over what is right and wrong, yet it seems to be like even the latter is unacceptable. We wouldn’t know what Guehi thinks if nobody asked him to wear an armband (and tbh, we still don’t really). More generally what I was saying about Christians (including I’m guessing Guehi) is they do love others but feel they have to follow biblical teachings, which includes saying certain behaviours are sins. And of course one of those is, unfortunately, homosexual sex. What you probably don’t hear is that they often hate how they have to think this and don’t want to hold such views, but feel they need to be consistent to the teachings (which now seem silly to me as an agnostic, but that’s not the point). That doesn’t mean they will treat gay people differently, claim they are inferior or any more sinful, or not stand up against homophobic abuse. Certainly from my experience the typical conservative Christian doesn’t actually care about someone else’s lifestyle; and tbh I see no evidence of that with Guehi here either. I had plenty of conversations with Christian friends over how conflicting these views were to them given the bible’s teachings on love, and a lot of them knew deep down it didn’t make sense, but that’s the cognitive dissonance of religion for you. I’m sure they’d be some of the first to defend their colleagues against homophobic bullying and for all we know so could Guehi. There’s of course been no shortage of truly horrendous homophobic Christians, but they don’t speak for Christians in general, or Guehi.

He has never ever said he hates them. You’re making assumptions. I know this from my upbringing and friends and family I have that are conservative Christians. I’m sure many of them don’t agree with gay marriage but I sincerely hope you don’t assume they all hate gay people. It doesn’t work like that and I can explain more if you’re prepared to understand their situation more.

I’m getting involved in this again because I had a conservative Christian upbringing (that I’ve rejected) so I’m in a good place to speak here. What did he say that counts as ‘outspoken homophobia’? I’m still not what this thing he said was, or why people need to think the worst of something because of some stupid writing on an armband. If you can’t tolerate those views then I should just remind you that I’m sure many of the Christian and Muslim footballers that have played for us likely think similar. @southernmag was spot on there btw - bit of perspective is key rather than chucking everyone under the ‘homophobic’ tag, which seems to range from people who believe in stoning people to death for being gay to people who write they love Jesus on their armbands.

More than happy for them to enjoy it. No need for it to be just us threatening the so called big 6 - good for the game in general. I’m sure fans of those teams were often happy for us and didn’t just want Liverpool to win.

Sorry I just can’t get why people want to see City win stuff It’s so boring and we’ve already had our big win. Surely football goes beyond just what is supposedly good for us (and I’m not sure it makes a difference anyway). You look at how impressive those scenes were yesterday and so many fans of other clubs have been genuinely happy for us and enjoyed seeing teams win stuff fir the first time in many years, fans going crazy etc. Yeah you won’t see any of that with City. Just the same old.

Yeah, I agree with all that - and Gayle’s comments were all measured (unlike Bruce’s salty response). More saying on a personal note the timing didn’t seem right, but that’s not a criticism on anyone else. We all saw what he was like as a manager and it’s still a good thing these comments from Gayle have come to light.

I know I’m being a right pedant but that’s not a direct quote. He did imply this though and said plenty of unpleasant things about Rafa too. Bruce did recommend Howe though apparently. So we should really be thanking him as the main reason we won the Carabao Cup.

Not a criticism of anyone; just saying personally the timing doesn’t feel right. He hasn’t tbf, so can just stick to criticising all the crazy things he has done and said. It’s good these things have still come out from Dwight fwiw - given we were told how nasty we all were in that empty stadium to such a nice bloke, proper footballing man etc.

Not wanting to sound preachy… but it kind of feels wrong laughing at the bloke now given his tragic family situation (which has led to a criminal investigation). But with this though, Gayle hasn’t said anything unpleasant. He’s just confirmed the Hope stuff was true (and that there was clearly a mole) as well as providing some other eye-opening insights into what a chancer this bloke is. He doesn’t have this level of hatred because he’s a terrible manager (even though he is), but because he’s a terrible bloke.

You didn't dream it - was Sowunmi, the centre-back who is also pretty massive. I watch Bromley a bit as a I live near and seems like their fans loved their visit (Londoners love the Toon).