Steven Taylor rejects new contract; Liverpool preparing £5m bid?

[NE5]

Big test of Big Sam and Ashley/Mort, this?

 

I say because it splits opinion, as this thread alone shows.

 

completely agree.

 

Lets hope penny pinching ways doesn't lose the best player we've brought through for a while. We never heard Steve Watson, Lee Clark, Robbie Elliott etc having contract problems like this. BTW, I fully understand the point made by Steve Taylors dad, and I agree with him. If Newcastle United want to match the Liverpools of this world, they have to behave like them with things like this.

 

Merlin has made a good point, it depends how much Allardyce rates him. I can't see how Allarydce wouldn't rate him as being worth one of the biggest contracts at the club. So if Taylor goes, I for one would like to know why, and if it is because Sam doesn't rate him, then I wouldn't agree but would accept his decision as he is the manager and so must be allowed to make his own judgements.

 

 

 

 

For me the pros far outweight the cons.

 

For one Taylor has every right to demand more, given that he's seen wasters get paid fortunes for doing nowt, that's not his problem that's the culture in which the club allowed to develop, he's just tapping into and lets be honest, Geordie or no Geordie, he wants well paid for what he does, we all would and to say otherwise would go against human nature.

 

Secondly, the club have to weigh up his real value. He cost the club nowt and can effectively save us tens of millions should he stay here for his career duration.

 

I doubt he's wanting to be the highest paid player at the club, he will however want to be put on parity with the likes of N'Zogbia or newcomers like Beye and again, he has every right.

 

If I were the club I'd pay him what he wants, but I'd go one step further, I'd say right:

 

We think you have lots of talent, and we value you. But you aren't worth what we're paying you at the moment. We can bring in another Cacapa on a free and pay him what you're going to get and he'll give us fantastic performances. But we're long term thinkers here and want you to be the bedrock of that defence for years to come, our John Terry if you like. We will pay you what you want now, but unless you improve drastically, you won't be getting a new contract here.

 

So here is the deal.

 

We will review your contract every 18 months and based on

 

Appearances

Goals

Clean sheets

England call ups

Good discipline on and off the pitch

European qualification

Trophies

 

We'll keep upgrading during the length of your contract.

 

See what he says.

 

That way you get him to commit, but you also promise to look after him for years to come.

 

And I'd do that with all long term contracts to be honest.

 

Can't fault any of that.

 

You probably have put his thoughts correctly too, and they would also be my own if I were in his position.

 

 

[Baggio]

Big test of Big Sam and Ashley/Mort, this?

 

I say because it splits opinion, as this thread alone shows.

 

completely agree.

 

Lets hope penny pinching ways doesn't lose the best player we've brought through for a while. We never heard Steve Watson, Lee Clark, Robbie Elliott etc having contract problems like this. BTW, I fully understand the point made by Steve Taylors dad, and I agree with him. If Newcastle United want to match the Liverpools of this world, they have to behave like them with things like this.

 

Merlin has made a good point, it depends how much Allardyce rates him. I can't see how Allarydce wouldn't rate him as being worth one of the biggest contracts at the club. So if Taylor goes, I for one would like to know why, and if it is because Sam doesn't rate him, then I wouldn't agree but would accept his decision as he is the manager and so must be allowed to make his own judgements.

 

 

 

 

Because in his five games so far as manager Taylor has made two big mistakes? One of them leading to a goal?

[Delima]

I don't understand why would people happy to see Taylor go? Taylor is not just another youngster. Yes he has made mistakes but he has also shown what he could do. It is about doing the right thing consistently and doing the wrong thing less. Fine he might not be at the same level with Micah Richards, but he is not famous simply for graduating from Newcastle Academy.

 

I hope he is kept in the club. John Terry and Jamie Carragher weren't any world beater at 21. Rio Ferdinand was much better became the dearest defender in Premiership when he was 22 but he has yet to fulfill the potential he promised so much.

 

And I hope Taylor is played as frequent as possible as central defender this season without significant detriment to the club. I understand that Cacapa has a very good pedigree, Rozenhal has done well so far, and Faye is probably a better defender than Taylor right now. But Steven Taylor means a lot more to the club and he is still a player with massive potential to realise, unlike the other 3 either at their peak or past it.

[NE5]

Big test of Big Sam and Ashley/Mort, this?

 

I say because it splits opinion, as this thread alone shows.

 

completely agree.

 

Lets hope penny pinching ways doesn't lose the best player we've brought through for a while. We never heard Steve Watson, Lee Clark, Robbie Elliott etc having contract problems like this. BTW, I fully understand the point made by Steve Taylors dad, and I agree with him. If Newcastle United want to match the Liverpools of this world, they have to behave like them with things like this.

 

Merlin has made a good point, it depends how much Allardyce rates him. I can't see how Allarydce wouldn't rate him as being worth one of the biggest contracts at the club. So if Taylor goes, I for one would like to know why, and if it is because Sam doesn't rate him, then I wouldn't agree but would accept his decision as he is the manager and so must be allowed to make his own judgements.

 

 

Because in his five games so far as manager Taylor has made two big mistakes? One of them leading to a goal?

 

Maybe he has, but he still has big potential, but as I said, the decision must be Allardyces. If he wants to keep him, then Taylor should be on a par with the new contracts that Milner and Zoggy have got, at least.  And the club shouldn't be haggling over it either.

 

 

 

 

[Baggio]

Big test of Big Sam and Ashley/Mort, this?

 

I say because it splits opinion, as this thread alone shows.

 

completely agree.

 

Lets hope penny pinching ways doesn't lose the best player we've brought through for a while. We never heard Steve Watson, Lee Clark, Robbie Elliott etc having contract problems like this. BTW, I fully understand the point made by Steve Taylors dad, and I agree with him. If Newcastle United want to match the Liverpools of this world, they have to behave like them with things like this.

 

Merlin has made a good point, it depends how much Allardyce rates him. I can't see how Allarydce wouldn't rate him as being worth one of the biggest contracts at the club. So if Taylor goes, I for one would like to know why, and if it is because Sam doesn't rate him, then I wouldn't agree but would accept his decision as he is the manager and so must be allowed to make his own judgements.

 

 

Because in his five games so far as manager Taylor has made two big mistakes? One of them leading to a goal?

 

Maybe he has, but he still has big potential, but as I said, the decision must be Allardyces. If he wants to keep him, then Taylor should be on a par with the new contracts that Milner and Zoggy have got, at least.  And the club shouldn't be haggling over it either.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree, he's got potential but at the moment he's nothing more than average, has it said somewhere that Milner and N'Zogbia get paid the same or do people just presume they do?

 

Still, this is all apart of the negotiating process when it comes to players signing contracts, as I've said earlier in the thread the only disappointing thing so far is Taylor's dad going to the press to try and get public support for his lads pay rise, one he's likely to get in the end anyway.

[Guest Knightrider]

For a defender his talent isn't average at all Baggio, given that every young centre-back from Titus Bramble to John Terry have all done the same at their respective career stages, if not worse. As a defender he has bags of talent and isn't average at all. Off the ball he makes the right positional decisions 9 times out of 10 which is the key aspect when looking at young defenders, or indeed young strikers, given that their roles are similar, although with different ends.

 

And his performances this season have been no worse than Rozenhal's who has had a few suspect moments too. Only no-one is looking out for these so they go unnoticed, that and he isn't a big headed Watanabe hero or overrated by many. Well I spotted them. If I were a cretin, I'd use them to build an argument as to why he's average or not good enough, given his experience and cost.

 

 

[Baggio]

For a defender his talent isn't average at all Baggio, given that every young centre-back from Titus Bramble to John Terry have all done the same at their respective career stages, if not worse. As a defender he has bags of talent and isn't average at all. Off the ball he makes the right positional decisions 9 times out of 10 which is the key aspect when looking at young defenders, or indeed young strikers, given that their roles are similar, although with different ends.

 

And his performances this season have been no worse than Rozenhal's who has had a few suspect moments too. Only no-one is looking out for these so they go unnoticed, that and he isn't a big headed Watanabe hero or overrated by many. Well I spotted them. If I were a cretin, I'd use them to build an argument as to why he's average or not good enough, given his experience and cost.

 

 

 

What does he excel at? He's often caught out with his positioning and unlike other young CB's he doesn't really have the pace to make up for it, he's decent in the air but his distribution is awful, his tackling can be good but he often gets carried away trying to be the hero, he's no better than Dawson yet he's a laughing stock on here.

 

He hasn't been a patch on Rozenhal either, not even close.

[Baggio]

God I hope HTT isn't writing a huge post on the subject.

[Guest Knightrider]

For a defender his talent isn't average at all Baggio, given that every young centre-back from Titus Bramble to John Terry have all done the same at their respective career stages, if not worse. As a defender he has bags of talent and isn't average at all. Off the ball he makes the right positional decisions 9 times out of 10 which is the key aspect when looking at young defenders, or indeed young strikers, given that their roles are similar, although with different ends.

 

And his performances this season have been no worse than Rozenhal's who has had a few suspect moments too. Only no-one is looking out for these so they go unnoticed, that and he isn't a big headed Watanabe hero or overrated by many. Well I spotted them. If I were a cretin, I'd use them to build an argument as to why he's average or not good enough, given his experience and cost.

 

 

 

What does he excel at? He's often caught out with his positioning and unlike other young CB's he doesn't really have the pace to make up for it, he's decent in the air but his distribution is awful, his tackling can be good but he often gets carried away trying to be the hero, he's no better than Dawson yet he's a laughing stock on here.

 

He hasn't been a patch on Rozenhal either, not even close.

 

He doesn't excel at anything thankfully. Instead he's a more rounded player. He does have pace too, did you see his performance against Drogba last season or did you see him last week against Heskey even where he more than kept up with him pace wise? His distribution isn't awful either. Now you're just being silly.

 

As for his positioning, of course he gets caught out now and again, but that happens to every player regardless of what position they are playing in, it's unavoidable. However, I'm not talking about vacating a position to press a player or to attack a ball, I'm talking about general positioning. When the ball breaks in midfield and players are attacking our defence for example, Taylor will 9 times out of 10 take up the correct position in the centre which he did many a time against Villa for example. Now this may not mean much to you, but it does for a defender/defensive unit and is something that if not in existant already, can't be coached or learned. Bramble had no positional sense outside of being told where to go or instructed to be. I.e. he wasn't game aware. Taylor is and that is vitally important, vitally.

 

Dawson is a few years older than Taylor btw and has had a long series of games at CB for both Forest and Spurs to iron out any flaws. Unlike Taylor who has either been moved about or simply hasn't had the required run of games as he is still only 21, 3 years younger than Dawson. When Taylor is 24, then we'll compare.

 

Average

[Guest Knightrider]

God I hope HTT isn't writing a huge post on the subject.

 

Long enough for ya

[Guest Sniffer]

Added to the fact that Taylor has played most of his games in a shite defence with fullbacks that forever left central defenders exposed .....and that his partners were bramble and moore. How do you expect him to improve dramatically? Even now nzogbia is a makeshift left back and we don't have a proven premier league right back.

[Guest Knightrider]

To Baggio and others. Name one CB who today is top-class, but whose game was impeccable at the age of 21? Because that's how you're all judging Taylor and that's not even getting into other factors that have so far, had a negative effect on Taylor's development, or hasn't exactly helped. Such as injuries, being forced back early from one, played out of position, played with the likes of Bramble and Boumsong or coached by the likes of Terry fucking Mac, Souness and Roeder.

 

Terry, 23 before he started showing real signs. Carragher was older. Sol Campbell made tons of mistakes, as did Rio Ferdinand at that age, the latter so much so his mistakes were being talked about and highlighted in the same way Bramble's was for us. Tony Adams was derided for years before he became a rock. Alan Hansen was regarded as a light weight. Gareth Southgate didn't come to the fore as a top defender until he was over 25. Even Woodgate, the best defender many of us has witnessed in a Black and White shirt, wasn't too hot as a 21 year old. Indeed he wasn't even that great when we signed him. I remember at the time many Leeds fans saying we were paying over the odds and that he had lots of potential but guess what, made mistakes with it.

 

Judge Taylor in 4 years time. He's already a solid Premiership defender, lets see how good he is with a good run of games, good coaching, playing in a good defensive unit and with a bit more experience behind him, instead of writing him off at the age of 21 because OMG!!!!Z HE MAKES A FEW MISTAKES< LO!L

 

Only at Newcastle.

 

BTW if we decide not to renew his contract, I guarantee the likes of Liverpool, Chelsea et al will come sniffing.

[Baggio]

For a defender his talent isn't average at all Baggio, given that every young centre-back from Titus Bramble to John Terry have all done the same at their respective career stages, if not worse. As a defender he has bags of talent and isn't average at all. Off the ball he makes the right positional decisions 9 times out of 10 which is the key aspect when looking at young defenders, or indeed young strikers, given that their roles are similar, although with different ends.

 

And his performances this season have been no worse than Rozenhal's who has had a few suspect moments too. Only no-one is looking out for these so they go unnoticed, that and he isn't a big headed Watanabe hero or overrated by many. Well I spotted them. If I were a cretin, I'd use them to build an argument as to why he's average or not good enough, given his experience and cost.

 

 

 

What does he excel at? He's often caught out with his positioning and unlike other young CB's he doesn't really have the pace to make up for it, he's decent in the air but his distribution is awful, his tackling can be good but he often gets carried away trying to be the hero, he's no better than Dawson yet he's a laughing stock on here.

 

He hasn't been a patch on Rozenhal either, not even close.

 

He doesn't excel at anything thankfully. Instead he's a more rounded player. He does have pace too, did you see his performance against Drogba last season or did you see him last week against Heskey even where he more than kept up with him pace wise? His distribution isn't awful either. Now you're just being silly.

 

As for his positioning, of course he gets caught out now and again, but that happens to every player regardless of what position they are playing in, it's unavoidable. However, I'm not talking about vacating a position to press a player or to attack a ball, I'm talking about general positioning. When the ball breaks in midfield and players are attacking our defence for example, Taylor will 9 times out of 10 take up the correct position in the centre which he did many a time against Villa for example. Now this may not mean much to you, but it does for a defender/defensive unit and is something that if not in existant already, can't be coached or learned. Bramble had no positional sense outside of being told where to go or instructed to be. I.e. he wasn't game aware. Taylor is and that is vitally important, vitally.

 

Dawson is a few years older than Taylor btw and has had a long series of games at CB for both Forest and Spurs to iron out any flaws. Unlike Taylor who has either been moved about or simply hasn't had the required run of games as he is still only 21, 3 years younger than Dawson. When Taylor is 24, then we'll compare.

 

Average

 

You can't point to one individual performance to make a point about how good someone is, Bramble was excellent against Chelsea the year before and I seem to remember you pointing out repeatedly Scott Parker's performance against Liverpool as to say how good he was.

 

His positioning is poor, I'm not sure how you can debate that when he's caught out quite often, fast paced passing catches him out and he struggles to pick players up,  I don't know why I'm being silly for saying his distribution is poor when it mainly consists of a big boot up field, his passing on the floor is very average and I have little faith when he's in possession.

 

He has potential but he's an average player at the moment, I again don't really see why you put a laughing smiley next to me saying that but people often do it to try and belittle what someone has said as if they're stupid for suggesting it, the lad has a lot to learn but luckily for him that a CB gets better with age (as Johnnypd pointed out the other day) he's not good enough to be a regular in the first team yet though, luckily for us we've got 3 better centre backs at the club.

 

You didn't tell me how Rozenhal performances have been no better than Taylor's either, I think it's pretty obvious already that Rozenhal has better ability with the ball at his feet than Taylor ever will, lets hope some of it can rub off on the lad.

[Baggio]

To Baggio and others. Name one CB who today is top-class, but whose game was impeccable at the age of 21? Because that's how you're all judging Taylor and that's not even getting into other factors that have so far, had a negative effect on Taylor's development, or hasn't exactly helped. Such as injuries, being forced back early from one, played out of position, played with the likes of Bramble and Boumsong or coached by the likes of Terry fucking Mac, Souness and Roeder.

 

Terry, 23 before he started showing real signs. Carragher was older. Sol Campbell made tons of mistakes, as did Rio Ferdinand at that age, the latter so much so his mistakes were being talked about and highlighted in the same way Bramble's was for us. Tony Adams was derided for years before he became a rock. Alan Hansen was regarded as a light weight. Gareth Southgate didn't come to the fore as a top defender until he was over 25. Even Woodgate, the best defender many of us has witnessed in a Black and White shirt, wasn't too hot as a 21 year old. Indeed he wasn't even that great when we signed him. I remember at the time many Leeds fans saying we were paying over the odds and that he had lots of potential but guess what, made mistakes with it.

 

Judge Taylor in 4 years time. He's already a solid Premiership defender, lets see how good he is with a good run of games, good coaching, playing in a good defensive unit and with a bit more experience behind him, instead of writing him off at the age of 21 because OMG!!!!Z HE MAKES A FEW MISTAKES< LO!L

 

Only at Newcastle.

 

BTW if we decide not to renew his contract, I guarantee the likes of Liverpool, Chelsea et al will come sniffing.

 

Nobody has said that so stop being a drama queen.

 

Nice to see you've tried to re-write history regarding Woodgate, not too hot? He was regarded as a better player than Ferdinand when we signed him, most Leeds fans thought we got him for a bargain and put it down to his injury problems, he was a far better player at 21 than Taylor, as was Ferdinand and Terry, even Wes Brown was a better player at 21 than Taylor.

 

 

[Guest Knightrider]

For a defender his talent isn't average at all Baggio, given that every young centre-back from Titus Bramble to John Terry have all done the same at their respective career stages, if not worse. As a defender he has bags of talent and isn't average at all. Off the ball he makes the right positional decisions 9 times out of 10 which is the key aspect when looking at young defenders, or indeed young strikers, given that their roles are similar, although with different ends.

 

And his performances this season have been no worse than Rozenhal's who has had a few suspect moments too. Only no-one is looking out for these so they go unnoticed, that and he isn't a big headed Watanabe hero or overrated by many. Well I spotted them. If I were a cretin, I'd use them to build an argument as to why he's average or not good enough, given his experience and cost.

 

 

 

What does he excel at? He's often caught out with his positioning and unlike other young CB's he doesn't really have the pace to make up for it, he's decent in the air but his distribution is awful, his tackling can be good but he often gets carried away trying to be the hero, he's no better than Dawson yet he's a laughing stock on here.

 

He hasn't been a patch on Rozenhal either, not even close.

 

He doesn't excel at anything thankfully. Instead he's a more rounded player. He does have pace too, did you see his performance against Drogba last season or did you see him last week against Heskey even where he more than kept up with him pace wise? His distribution isn't awful either. Now you're just being silly.

 

As for his positioning, of course he gets caught out now and again, but that happens to every player regardless of what position they are playing in, it's unavoidable. However, I'm not talking about vacating a position to press a player or to attack a ball, I'm talking about general positioning. When the ball breaks in midfield and players are attacking our defence for example, Taylor will 9 times out of 10 take up the correct position in the centre which he did many a time against Villa for example. Now this may not mean much to you, but it does for a defender/defensive unit and is something that if not in existant already, can't be coached or learned. Bramble had no positional sense outside of being told where to go or instructed to be. I.e. he wasn't game aware. Taylor is and that is vitally important, vitally.

 

Dawson is a few years older than Taylor btw and has had a long series of games at CB for both Forest and Spurs to iron out any flaws. Unlike Taylor who has either been moved about or simply hasn't had the required run of games as he is still only 21, 3 years younger than Dawson. When Taylor is 24, then we'll compare.

 

Average

 

You can't point to one individual performance to make a point about how good someone is, Bramble was excellent against Chelsea the year before and I seem to remember you pointing out repeatedly Scott Parker's performance against Liverpool as to say how good he was.

 

His positioning is poor, I'm not sure how you can debate that when he's caught out quite often, fast paced passing catches him out and he struggles to pick players up,  I don't know why I'm being silly for saying his distribution is poor when it mainly consists of a big boot up field, his passing on the floor is very average and I have little faith when he's in possession.

 

He has potential but he's an average player at the moment, I again don't really see why you put a laughing smiley next to me saying that but people often do it to try and belittle what someone has said as if they're stupid for suggesting it, the lad has a lot to learn but luckily for him that a CB gets better with age (as Johnnypd pointed out the other day) he's not good enough to be a regular in the first team yet though, luckily for us we've got 3 better centre backs at the club.

 

You didn't tell me how Rozenhal performances have been no better than Taylor's either, I think it's pretty obvious already that Rozenhal has better ability with the ball at his feet than Taylor ever will, lets hope some of it can rub off on the lad.

 

I pointed to two performances that showed Taylor had pace, wich you said he lacks. I could however point to many games where Taylor has had a fine game to justify any notion that he isn't as you say he is - average.

 

I put a laughing smiley not to ridicule your opinion, you're very knowledgeable and a good poster who I enjoy debating with, it's just I find the idea that Taylor is average, to be laughable when it is clear as day he most certainly isn't. Unless of course you're comparing him against top players which many seem to do, especially Terry.

 

I disagree that he isn't good enough to be in the first team, one player doesn't make a defence and while on paper the two new lads have vast experience and do look good together, especially Cacapa, Taylor has enough in his own game to be of benefit to our defence. I like Rozenhal and I think he's looked very good, but if I was ultra critical, he's done a few things he's gotten away with which Taylor hasn't or if Taylor did, would get picked up on. I'm talking about poor positioning here and bottling tackles, which as a defender, you don't do. He's done this twice, now. He also keeps going to the left flank leaving a hole behind him in the centre. I understand he's eager to help out his full-back and to impress, however you only do this if you're stretched, he keeps doing this when we have more than enough cover down the left. Boro exploited this a few times. People pointed to N'Zogbia in that game being defensively poor because a lot of their attacks come from that flank. Well it came from down there because one of our centre-backs had vacated his position so balls could be played in between the full-back. Luckily Taylor was there more than once in the cntre to clear. This tendency to come out towards the ball, reminds me of Boumsong.

 

I just hope Rozenhal and the coaching staff smooth this out, which I'm sure they will. If not, say he does that against an Arsenal or a Man Utd, and gets spun or bypassed, we'll be left isolated at the back and outnumbered.

 

This isn't a biggy btw because again, all players do the same, even Taylor, but because of Rozenhal's experience and good reading of the game, I'd expect him not to do this too many times because it's risky in a minor way. Sleuths and wingless sides won't exploit it but my good a quick players would and so would this with good width.

 

You also mention Rozenhal's ability on the ball, he has hoofed it aimlessley just as much as Taylor but I agree, he has the capaity to use the ball much better.

 

I also think with him being a new player, we are looking for him to pass the ball, to see if he's that typoe of defender, and when he does, we ignore the times when he just hoofs it.

 

I don't because I like to analyse these little things, I'm a bit of a geek like that. Have all our games on tape and have watched a few of them matches a few times now and I can say, no-one in the back four has played badly individually, some have had a few moments like but analysing it all, we've been pretty solid, even against Boro we were solid as a back-four. It was the attack and midfield that let us down mostly against them.

[Guest Knightrider]

To Baggio and others. Name one CB who today is top-class, but whose game was impeccable at the age of 21? Because that's how you're all judging Taylor and that's not even getting into other factors that have so far, had a negative effect on Taylor's development, or hasn't exactly helped. Such as injuries, being forced back early from one, played out of position, played with the likes of Bramble and Boumsong or coached by the likes of Terry fucking Mac, Souness and Roeder.

 

Terry, 23 before he started showing real signs. Carragher was older. Sol Campbell made tons of mistakes, as did Rio Ferdinand at that age, the latter so much so his mistakes were being talked about and highlighted in the same way Bramble's was for us. Tony Adams was derided for years before he became a rock. Alan Hansen was regarded as a light weight. Gareth Southgate didn't come to the fore as a top defender until he was over 25. Even Woodgate, the best defender many of us has witnessed in a Black and White shirt, wasn't too hot as a 21 year old. Indeed he wasn't even that great when we signed him. I remember at the time many Leeds fans saying we were paying over the odds and that he had lots of potential but guess what, made mistakes with it.

 

Judge Taylor in 4 years time. He's already a solid Premiership defender, lets see how good he is with a good run of games, good coaching, playing in a good defensive unit and with a bit more experience behind him, instead of writing him off at the age of 21 because OMG!!!!Z HE MAKES A FEW MISTAKES< LO!L

 

Only at Newcastle.

 

BTW if we decide not to renew his contract, I guarantee the likes of Liverpool, Chelsea et al will come sniffing.

 

Nobody has said that so stop being a drama queen.

 

Nice to see you've tried to re-write history regarding Woodgate, not too hot? He was regarded as a better player than Ferdinand when we signed him, most Leeds fans thought we got him for a bargain and put it down to his injury problems, he was a far better player at 21 than Taylor, as was Ferdinand and Terry, even Wes Brown was a better player at 21 than Taylor.

 

 

 

Did you read Waccoe when we signed him, Woodgate? They were saying we'd paid over the odds and that he was good but pone to errors. Maybe they were just bitter. I never believed them anyway because I had rated Woodgate, although I wanted Gallas ahead of him, he's a superb alround defender. Ferdinand was a better footballer at 21, but as a defender he wasn't too hot, his mistakes were often the talking point on MOTD when he was at West Ham. Playing alongside Radebe at Leeds did him the world of good. Hopefully Cacapa will perform a similar role for Taylor - an experienced head.

[Baggio]

For a defender his talent isn't average at all Baggio, given that every young centre-back from Titus Bramble to John Terry have all done the same at their respective career stages, if not worse. As a defender he has bags of talent and isn't average at all. Off the ball he makes the right positional decisions 9 times out of 10 which is the key aspect when looking at young defenders, or indeed young strikers, given that their roles are similar, although with different ends.

 

And his performances this season have been no worse than Rozenhal's who has had a few suspect moments too. Only no-one is looking out for these so they go unnoticed, that and he isn't a big headed Watanabe hero or overrated by many. Well I spotted them. If I were a cretin, I'd use them to build an argument as to why he's average or not good enough, given his experience and cost.

 

 

 

What does he excel at? He's often caught out with his positioning and unlike other young CB's he doesn't really have the pace to make up for it, he's decent in the air but his distribution is awful, his tackling can be good but he often gets carried away trying to be the hero, he's no better than Dawson yet he's a laughing stock on here.

 

He hasn't been a patch on Rozenhal either, not even close.

 

He doesn't excel at anything thankfully. Instead he's a more rounded player. He does have pace too, did you see his performance against Drogba last season or did you see him last week against Heskey even where he more than kept up with him pace wise? His distribution isn't awful either. Now you're just being silly.

 

As for his positioning, of course he gets caught out now and again, but that happens to every player regardless of what position they are playing in, it's unavoidable. However, I'm not talking about vacating a position to press a player or to attack a ball, I'm talking about general positioning. When the ball breaks in midfield and players are attacking our defence for example, Taylor will 9 times out of 10 take up the correct position in the centre which he did many a time against Villa for example. Now this may not mean much to you, but it does for a defender/defensive unit and is something that if not in existant already, can't be coached or learned. Bramble had no positional sense outside of being told where to go or instructed to be. I.e. he wasn't game aware. Taylor is and that is vitally important, vitally.

 

Dawson is a few years older than Taylor btw and has had a long series of games at CB for both Forest and Spurs to iron out any flaws. Unlike Taylor who has either been moved about or simply hasn't had the required run of games as he is still only 21, 3 years younger than Dawson. When Taylor is 24, then we'll compare.

 

Average

 

You can't point to one individual performance to make a point about how good someone is, Bramble was excellent against Chelsea the year before and I seem to remember you pointing out repeatedly Scott Parker's performance against Liverpool as to say how good he was.

 

His positioning is poor, I'm not sure how you can debate that when he's caught out quite often, fast paced passing catches him out and he struggles to pick players up,  I don't know why I'm being silly for saying his distribution is poor when it mainly consists of a big boot up field, his passing on the floor is very average and I have little faith when he's in possession.

 

He has potential but he's an average player at the moment, I again don't really see why you put a laughing smiley next to me saying that but people often do it to try and belittle what someone has said as if they're stupid for suggesting it, the lad has a lot to learn but luckily for him that a CB gets better with age (as Johnnypd pointed out the other day) he's not good enough to be a regular in the first team yet though, luckily for us we've got 3 better centre backs at the club.

 

You didn't tell me how Rozenhal performances have been no better than Taylor's either, I think it's pretty obvious already that Rozenhal has better ability with the ball at his feet than Taylor ever will, lets hope some of it can rub off on the lad.

 

I pointed to two performances that showed Taylor had pace, wich you said he lacks. I could however point to many games where Taylor has had a fine game to justify any notion that he isn't as you say he is - average.

 

I put a laughing smiley not to ridicule your opinion, you're very knowledgeable and a good poster who I enjoy debating with, it's just I find the idea that Taylor is average, to be laughable when it is clear as day he most certainly isn't. Unless of course you're comparing him against top players which many seem to do, especially Terry.

 

I disagree that he isn't good enough to be in the first team, one player doesn't make a defence and while on paper the two new lads have vast experience and do look good together, especially Cacapa, Taylor has enough in his own game to be of benefit to our defence. I like Rozenhal and I think he's looked very good, but if I was ultra critical, he's done a few things he's gotten away with which Taylor hasn't or if Taylor did, would get picked up on. I'm talking about poor positioning here and bottling tackles, which as a defender, you don't do. He's done this twice, now. He also keeps going to the left flank leaving a hole behind him in the centre. I understand he's eager to help out his full-back and to impress, however you only do this if you're stretched, he keeps doing this when we have more than enough cover down the left. Boro exploited this a few times. People pointed to N'Zogbia in that game being defensively poor because a lot of their attacks come from that flank. Well it came from down there because one of our centre-backs had vacated his position so balls could be played in between the full-back. Luckily Taylor was there more than once in the cntre to clear. This tendency to come out towards the ball, reminds me of Boumsong.

 

I just hope Rozenhal and the coaching staff smooth this out, which I'm sure they will. If not, say he does that against an Arsenal or a Man Utd, and gets spun or bypassed, we'll be left isolated at the back and outnumbered.

 

This isn't a biggy btw because again, all players do the same, even Taylor, but because of Rozenhal's experience and good reading of the game, I'd expect him not to do this too many times because it's risky in a minor way. Sleuths and wingless sides won't exploit it but my good a quick players would and so would this with good width.

 

You also mention Rozenhal's ability on the ball, he has hoofed it aimlessley just as much as Taylor but I agree, he has the capaity to use the ball much better.

 

I also think with him being a new player, we are looking for him to pass the ball, to see if he's that typoe of defender, and when he does, we ignore the times when he just hoofs it.

 

I don't because I like to analyse these little things, I'm a bit of a geek like that. Have all our games on tape and have watched a few of them matches a few times now and I can say, no-one in the back four has played badly individually, some have had a few moments like but analysing it all, we've been pretty solid, even against Boro we were solid as a back-four. It was the attack and midfield that let us down mostly against them.

 

I compare Taylor to other clubs around us and what they have at the back, compared to the CB's that Everton, Spurs, Blackburn and Man City have with out even getting started on the big 4 then I find him average out of that bunch, yes it's to do with age and as I've said he should get better as he gets older but he's not up there with any of them yet really, perhaps you think I'm setting the standards too high but if these are teams we're looking to rival then it's fair to expect/compare our players too them.

 

I've noticed Rozenhal not pull out of challenges but go into them not fully committed, that's not really what his games about and he's a defender that plays with his brain rather than using physical attributes, I like him as a defender though and I've said many times that it's important to have defenders that are comfortable on the ball, he has been forced to hoof it at times but that's down to the lack of available options in midfield rather than his lack of ability, against Wigan some of the passing around at the back between Rozenhal, Cacapa and Geremi was first class and ball retention like that will prove important if we take a lead against the bigger teams.

 

I think the way Allardyce has handled Taylor has been first class btw, he's tried desperately to keep his feet on the ground because while he may have potential he's still not anywhere near what people are telling him he's going to be.

 

 

[Guest Knightrider]

Fair enough Baggio. I'd also give Taylor the benefit of the doubt regarding the hoofing. I'll not be alone in pointing this out but Taylor more than anyone, when on the ball, will gesture for someone to come and collect it, i.e. receive a pass from him, and sometimes he gets ignored so chooses to hoof it. You may notice also he will motion to the keeper to throw it or pass it out to one of the full-backs, and this often gets ignored too, queue Taylor turning around arms aloft as if to say "what did you do that for"?

 

Have you seen much of Taylor for the under 21s Baggio? I've always saw two different kind of performances, he's played much better for the under 21s than he has for us, looks a different player at times and often goes on rampages upfield, using the ball to good effect. This stopped once Pearce took over mind, but under Taylor the manager, Taylor the player was constantly bringing the ball out from the back. I actually wish he'd do more of that for Newcastle because he has the frame to go through players and he'd cause all kinds of chaos in the opposition defence if he rampaged forward more. I can see why that isn't allowed at Newcastle mind.

 

Regarding Rozenhal, I prefer my defenders to stay on their feet and to nick a ball rather than go in for a tackle, but the times he bottled a tackle, he had no choice but to tackle, these incidents both happened down the left and by bottling the tackle he allowed the attacker to skip by him free to send in a cross or exploit the space Rozenhal would have otherwise occupied. Nothing came of all this but it it became a regular feature of his game, I'd say he's going to come unstuck once or twice and all the eye catching displays in the world won't compensate for that. Hopefully he will settle down and play what I hope will be his natural game, he certainly has a good reading of the game so shouldn't get himself into too much bother.

 

I rate Taylor though and consider it unfair to judge him too harshly, especially in comparison with much older, experienced and more wiser defenders. For me he has a very good all-round game that needs touched up here and there, but the biggest factor will be his attitude. If he can keep that right, continue to work hard, cut out the rashness and calm down, he'll develop into a fine defender. Providing he gets the chance of course.

[Baggio]

Fair enough Baggio. I'd also give Taylor the benefit of the doubt regarding the hoofing. I'll not be alone in pointing this out but Taylor more than anyone, when on the ball, will gesture for someone to come and collect it, i.e. receive a pass from him, and sometimes he gets ignored so chooses to hoof it. You may notice also he will motion to the keeper to throw it or pass it out to one of the full-backs, and this often gets ignored too, queue Taylor turning around arms aloft as if to say "what did you do that for"?

 

Have you seen much of Taylor for the under 21s Baggio? I've always saw two different kind of performances, he's played much better for the under 21s than he has for us, looks a different player at times and often goes on rampages upfield, using the ball to good effect. This stopped once Pearce took over mind, but under Taylor the manager, Taylor the player was constantly bringing the ball out from the back. I actually wish he'd do more of that for Newcastle because he has the frame to go through players and he'd cause all kinds of chaos in the opposition defence if he rampaged forward more. I can see why that isn't allowed at Newcastle mind.

 

Regarding Rozenhal, I prefer my defenders to stay on their feet and to nick a ball rather than go in for a tackle, but the times he bottled a tackle, he had no choice but to tackle, these incidents both happened down the left and by bottling the tackle he allowed the attacker to skip by him free to send in a cross or exploit the space Rozenhal would have otherwise occupied. Nothing came of all this but it it became a regular feature of his game, I'd say he's going to come unstuck once or twice and all the eye catching displays in the world won't compensate for that. Hopefully he will settle down and play what I hope will be his natural game, he certainly has a good reading of the game so shouldn't get himself into too much bother.

 

I rate Taylor though and consider it unfair to judge him too harshly, especially in comparison with much older, experienced and more wiser defenders. For me he has a very good all-round game that needs touched up here and there, but the biggest factor will be his attitude. If he can keep that right, continue to work hard, cut out the rashness and calm down, he'll develop into a fine defender. Providing he gets the chance of course.

 

I've seen a bit of him for the under 21's, he's played at right back a fair bit and I think that would help him develop his footballing skills, his problem is composure on the ball as much as ability as he panics under pressure which usually leads to him hoofing it or playing it back to the keeper, one of the reasons I like having Emre in the team is because he's willing to drop deep to collect the ball from the CB and play it out, it limits the hoofing which only puts us under pressure when it lands at the opposition anyway.

 

Never been a big fan of under 21's football though, mainly because the standard isn't that great and the better players are already moved up, I remember Shola being a star at under 21 level when I watched him though. He performed better than Defoe at that level.

[Decky]

http://www.people.co.uk/sport/football/tm_headline=liverpool-prepare-taylor-bid%26method=full%26objectid=19759313%26siteid=93463-name_page.html

 

[Shak]

£5m

 

Fuck off at that price.

[Lotus]

Loada b0ll0x i reckon.

[Unlucky Luque]

He will sign a new contract next week...

[chicago_shearer]

In today's market, £5 million is nothing for a young, talented English player.  We bought Smith for more than that!

 

Whether he actually is overrated or not is totally irrelevant.  If Liverpool rate him, then they can pay according to his reputation. 

[Decky]

£10million AT LEAST when you look at the likes of Bale signing for that price.