A more positive view, post Derby

[Baggio]

Villa are a decent midtable team but we should still be looking to beat them.

 

Isn't this the point though, looking at last year's table, Newcastle and Villa were exactly the same things, mid table sides.

 

Mid table sides looking to improve, admittedly, but you're not going to suddenly start playing like a top six team, because you're not a top six team. Not yet.

 

If two teams are around the same position then you still fancy your chances against them at home, the fact was Villa sat back and we couldn't break them down, mainly because the creativity that was needed to do so wasn't brought in in the summer.

[Guest Knightrider]

Villa are a decent midtable team but we should still be looking to beat them.

 

Isn't this the point though, looking at last year's table, Newcastle and Villa were exactly the same things, mid table sides.

 

Mid table sides looking to improve, admittedly, but you're not going to suddenly start playing like a top six team, because you're not a top six team. Not yet.

 

Exactly. We are a mid-table team too. In fact I'd say Villa are above/ahead of us, having had an extra season under your own new regime.

 

Villa are actually a good comparison. Ironically. many would have loved O'Neill as our manager last season. On reflection I bet he's glad he turned us down, had he finished mid-table with us like he did with Villa, he'd be under massive pressure. That's assuming he'd have survived the end of season cat calls and protests.

 

 

[Yorkie]

Starting to think more and more that Barton is the person that will change things, in all honesty. I've said that several times since the Derby game. I can't wait for him to get back playing.

 

Don't get your hopes up too high.

 

That is not to put a downer on Barton, who I rate, but more a general point.

 

Call my cynical/ignorant/whatever, but if that's not a put-down on Barton, what is it?

 

For the record, i think Barton will change our attacking fortunes by 100%.

[Dave]

Starting to think more and more that Barton is the person that will change things, in all honesty. I've said that several times since the Derby game. I can't wait for him to get back playing.

 

Don't get your hopes up too high.

 

That is not to put a downer on Barton, who I rate, but more a general point.

 

Call my cynical/ignorant/whatever, but if that's not a put-down on Barton, what is it?

 

Check the theme of the thread. Some mental people were talking about Europe and the top four this year (any less is a failure etc), one defeat later and we're apparently going to be relegated. Against Derby we were shit and we've not properly clicked in any game yet.

 

Just saying if you (or anyone else) build up Barton so much that you eventually expect his coming back to change the whole team then you'll most likely be let down. He's good, but he's not that good.

[Dave]

Starting to think more and more that Barton is the person that will change things, in all honesty. I've said that several times since the Derby game. I can't wait for him to get back playing.

 

Don't get your hopes up too high.

 

That is not to put a downer on Barton, who I rate, but more a general point.

 

Call my cynical/ignorant/whatever, but if that's not a put-down on Barton, what is it?

 

For the record, i think Barton will change our attacking fortunes by 100%.

 

Just like that.

[Baggio]

It's amazing how poeple are always coming up with excuses to appease themselves.

 

Or are you people just in denial? Life must be good for you.

 

Denial of what? That our performances have been decidedly average, our tactics and team lineups contentious and that our team lacks pace, width and creativity? Much less that these performances are simply not and never will be good enough?

 

I myself am fully aware of every issue and problem that exists at current, but unlike some I'm not bashing the manager or team, nor panicking and making rash, ill-timed and knee-jerk reactions that smack of nothing but sheer fickleness given we are ONLy 5 games in to a whole new regieme that actually, points wise and league position wise, is looking pretty damn good from where I'm sitting, in spite of our poor performances and no real team semblence.

 

It has got to the point where people are now in a totally negative frame of mind they are now looking for any excuse to nit pick, have a go or criticise and write off the new man, the new team and new players, or are just waiting for the next hiccup so they can get back to pissing and moaning.

 

Well sorry but the attitude on here stinks.

 

We all got what we wished for this summer (except Parky ) but still people find something to maon about.

 

I wouldn't mind if these things were being written if that was the final game of a awful season but it's the 5th game of a new campaign, one in which we've started not to shabby and one that can only get better.

 

Fucking cheer up people and look on the bright side for once.

 

So you agree with all of the concerns people have mentioned yet you think they're kneejerkers for airing them?

 

People on here have pointed out all summer the need for the team to have pace and creativity, it's not something new that we've only realised we're missing, shame Allardyce himself couldn't see it.

 

8 points is hardly a great return from the teams we've played either, Bolton are bottom of the league while Wigan, Derby and Boro were all tipped for relegation, Villa are a decent midtable team but we should still be looking to beat them.

 

Things will be more clear after our next 4 league games which are against teams who should be challenging us for a European place, luckily for us 3 of them are at home.

 

My beef isn't with people mentioning these things, my beef is with the cynicism, the criticism and the knee-jerking and down right negativity.

 

"shame the manager can't see it"

 

Things like that. Give your head a shake man, of course he can see we aren't creating enough, fuck me this is a man big on stats, he only needs to check the BBC to see this, he doesn't even need to use Prozone.

 

As for beating teams, we will go into every game looking to either draw or win, like every self respecting manager.

 

A point at Derby may seem like the end of the world to the cretins on here but a point is a point.

 

Anyway I seriously doubt he went into that match to get a draw, he's a greedy bastard and will have wanted all 3 points. Wanting and achieving are two different things though and when the prospect of defeat comes into the equation which is has to whenever you prepare for a football match, you have to be balanced about things. Want three points, accept 1, try and get 3, if not hold out for a point. DON'T LOSE.

 

Give my head a shake? For stating the fucking obvious all summer?!

 

Jesus wept.

[Guest Sniffer]

Positive view?

 

We kept the score down to one.

 

It was Derby and Not Liverpool or it might have been ten.

 

This undefeated tag was a millstone around our neck and was affecting team performances and morale. We were frightened to play any kind of attractive football for fear we'd just fall short of the record. Thank God it's over.

 

Our defeat killed off any ideas that rival supporters had that the league was a one horse race and they might as well give is the trophy now.

 

We provided some light hearted entertainment to the entire country who can once again rest easy that The Toon are just another fucking joke and just in the league and cup competitions to make up the numbers.

 

We have got the country thinking about something other than Maddy and the Northern Rock fiasco. Millions around the country are wondering how thick can the thick geordie bastards really be to think there are any positives to come out of a  beating by a fucking shite team that had a goal difference of -12 and had just been tanked 6-0?

[Guest Knightrider]

*Bizarre tactics

*Playing players out of position

*Signing grafters instead of creativity or pace

*Using injuries as an excuse already

 

You could be talking about any manager there Baggio.

 

Regarding signings: You forget he had to rebuild an entire defence and contend with the prospect of losing his two big name big money star strikers, hence the signing of two forwards, where as Barton for all we know could be the creative spark. And you don't get many playmakers with a net spend of what is it, 11m or something? Not when you have a whole new defence to buy. Be realistic man.

 

Don't be fooled by injury excuses either, I mean do you honestly think Allardyce considers injuries were to blame for the Derby display and result? His video and statistical data doesn't allow for those kind of excuses never mind anything else. I mean he's not going to rip into his team live to the media is he? And it isn't as if he didn't say that was a bad performance and that we must improve. Using meaningless quotes against the manager really is scraping the barrel, but then you've been in this negative and hyper critical mood all summer.

 

Stop trying to deflect the criticism of Allardyce onto me by saying I've been in a negative mood all Summer, the fact is he has used injuries as an excuse so why make out you know whats going on behind the scenes?

 

As for not signing creative players, they don't have to be the best players in the World you know, as I've said it was so obvious what we needed yet he chose to blow £6 million on Alan Smith instead, is he really that stupid that he considers the bloke to be a midfielder? Shocking signing with money that should have been used to sign someone with pace who can stretch games.

 

You're making excuses for the bloke because you've backed him all the way, fair play to you for that but don't insult the intelligence of the posters on here by trying to pull the wool over their eyes with bullshit.

 

Baggio (again) do you seriously think he believes we lost because of injuries or fatigue?

 

The logic behind Smith's signing stands up when you take in account that at the time we didn't know if we'd be losing either or both of Owen and Martins, therefore another striker was needed. Furthermore, because of Barton's injury, Dyer's sale and Nobby's departure, which were all on the cards, we also needed an extra midfielder. Losing a versatile player like Dyer mean we'd need another versatile player. Well Smith is that. Also, we can't ignore the importance of signing good characters, especially at a club that has had a few bad characters over the years. He also had to rebuild the team spirit which was broken to the point where quite a few players were unhappy. You do this by fostering a good character which Smith's own will have aided. Smith's signing also makes more sense when you take into consideration that we could be without Martins in January and fitness concerns over Owen.

 

I'd rather we didn't sign him myself and for me he's a squad player and not good enough for the first-team on a regular basis, but I can see the logic in his signing.

 

Back to creativity, you're criticising the manager for not signing such a player, maybe Barton is that player, maybe Emre is the player he wants to do that job. Those two are injured though. You're being hype critical.

 

And I'm not making excuses for him either despite rightly as you state backing him all the way. Again the tactics are iffy, the team lineup is, the performances have been poor and we have to improve. I too would have liked us to have signed some pace, width and creativity, you're not the only one who recognises this you know, but I'm not going to condemn him because he didn't. We'll get such players eventually, that's the way I look at it, better late than never and all that.

 

I'm not pulling the wool over anyone's eyes either, again I've already questioned his tactics and so on, my beef isn't with that but the cynicism, negativity, knee jerking and lack of patience, not to mention the fickleness.

 

Boils my piss man because it's totally unreasonable and often illogical.

[Guest Knightrider]

If the Derby defeat stops fans making idiots of themselves in the Chronicle with their 5-0 predictions I'll be happy, these cretins are the type of fan who booed Sir Bobby off against Wolves because we only drew 1-1 at home on the way to finishing 5th. As soon as I read the predictions I knew we'd lose. I blame them

[brummie]

If two teams are around the same position then you still fancy your chances against them at home, the fact was Villa sat back and we couldn't break them down, mainly because the creativity that was needed to do so wasn't brought in in the summer.

 

True, but by the same measure, it isn't the end of the world if you don't take the points.

 

The main positive thing i drew from that match for you is that it is one which you would have lost last season, without a doubt (although, thinking about it, you won the fixture last year, despite being under far more pressure from us, but that was a fluke ).

 

I understand why you'd be concerned after a result like the Derby one, but really, this soon into the season, you've got to put your trust in the manager. You've got to give him the full season, in fact, which is why I think people who were predicting CL were madly off the mark.

 

If at the end of the season, there hasn't been a distinct improvement on last year, then you're at least criticising the bloke after giving him a chance to prove your initial worries wrong.

[Yorkie]

Starting to think more and more that Barton is the person that will change things, in all honesty. I've said that several times since the Derby game. I can't wait for him to get back playing.

 

Don't get your hopes up too high.

 

That is not to put a downer on Barton, who I rate, but more a general point.

 

Call my cynical/ignorant/whatever, but if that's not a put-down on Barton, what is it?

 

For the record, i think Barton will change our attacking fortunes by 100%.

 

Just like that.

 

OK, i get you.

 

He'll change our attacking fortunes for the better, but it'll doubtless take time, given a long injury lay off and the shape of the team. Nevertheless, i see him as a pinnacle figure of our squad in the long-term.

 

[Guest Knightrider]

Oh and Baggio, we were linked with a whole host of playmakers over the summer, most notably Deco and Gudjohnson and from what I gather our interest was very real. And didn't Sam say if the board want to give him what he needs to build the defence (around about the time when we were still looking for defenders) and then throw in a Deco he wouldn't say no? He can see alright, those stats he's so fond of will be like a flashing red alert sign to him.

[Guest Knightrider]

If two teams are around the same position then you still fancy your chances against them at home, the fact was Villa sat back and we couldn't break them down, mainly because the creativity that was needed to do so wasn't brought in in the summer.

 

True, but by the same measure, it isn't the end of the world if you don't take the points.

 

The main positive thing i drew from that match for you is that it is one which you would have lost last season, without a doubt (although, thinking about it, you won the fixture last year, despite being under far more pressure from us, but that was a fluke ).

 

I understand why you'd be concerned after a result like the Derby one, but really, this soon into the season, you've got to put your trust in the manager. You've got to give him the full season, in fact, which is why I think people who were predicting CL were madly off the mark.

 

If at the end of the season, there hasn't been a distinct improvement on last year, then you're at least criticising the bloke after giving him a chance to prove your initial worries wrong.

 

Brummie, were there any derby like skeletons in your own performances locker last season? I imagine there was probably one or two. How did Villa fans react?

 

 

[Guest Sniffer]

Who do you gather this from, HTT?

 

Are you ITK?

[Guest Knightrider]

Who do you gather this from, HTT?

 

Are you ITK?

 

Gather what?

[johnnypd]

 

Baggio (again) do you seriously think he believes we lost because of injuries or fatigue?

 

The logic behind Smith's signing stands up when you take in account that at the time we didn't know if we'd be losing either or both of Owen and Martins, therefore another striker was needed. Furthermore, because of Barton's injury, Dyer's sale and Nobby's departure, which were all on the cards, we also needed an extra midfielder. Losing a versatile player like Dyer mean we'd need another versatile player. Well Smith is that. Also, we can't ignore the importance of signing good characters, especially at a club that has had a few bad characters over the years. He also had to rebuild the team spirit which was broken to the point where quite a few players were unhappy. You do this by fostering a good character which Smith's own will have aided. Smith's signing also makes more sense when you take into consideration that we could be without Martins in January and fitness concerns over Owen.

 

I'd rather we didn't sign him myself and for me he's a squad player and not good enough for the first-team on a regular basis, but I can see the logic in his signing.

 

 

i thought it was all going swimmingly until Smith came in and Dyer/Solano went out. surely if he knows the latter two are leaving he'd be looking to replace their attributes, guile and pace, so that as a squad we're not left short? It is one thing to say Barton and Emre are injured but you can't base the entire creative strategy of your squad on two players. If we'd kept Dyer, or signed a like-for-like replacement, then questions about filling the right or left or centre of midfield with a creative/pacy player wouldn't be mentioned. Instead it seems like Allardyce only looks for one type of player and that is the strong, direct, powerful type. and it is fair enough as the side needed these players, especially in defensive positions. but then in the few positions where those attributes aren't as important, where other skills take priority, he gets in another automaton with virtually none of the qualities we needed. and i don't see the claims about verstatility as being valid, Smith CANNOT play in midfield, that much has been established. As a striker he may be alright back up, though his scoring rate is up there with Ade Akinbiyi, but we shouldn't have splurged £6m on a fourth or fifth choice when we had other areas that needed to be addressed.

[Guest Phil K]

Over-reacted to the Derby game ?

This is the mentality which has seen us sliding down the league over the years.

Do you think Man U/Liverpool/Arsenal fans would have tolerated that shameful display ?

Thats why they are where they are, and we AREN'T.

 

That said, as opposed to last season, thus far I believe the defence to be a 100% better, the midfield about as poor, the forwards also as poor.

So slight improvement, but a long long way to go before the support gets a team worthy of it again.

[Guest Knightrider]

The time to really judge this team and the new manager is when it's at it's strongest, when it has taken on the form in which the manager intends to stick with.

I've always liked the Navratilova quote:

 

"The mark of great sportsmen is not how good they are at their best, but how good they are their worst."

 

Ah, but where is the great in NUFC?

 

We are not a great team, not even a good team, we are an average team.

 

Don't get me wrong I see where you're coming from and would agree, I'd certainly use that regarding individuals at the club, but not the team.

[Guest Sniffer]

That our interest in Deco and Gudjohonsen was very real as you say above HTT. Where did you gather this from?

[Guest Knightrider]

 

Baggio (again) do you seriously think he believes we lost because of injuries or fatigue?

 

The logic behind Smith's signing stands up when you take in account that at the time we didn't know if we'd be losing either or both of Owen and Martins, therefore another striker was needed. Furthermore, because of Barton's injury, Dyer's sale and Nobby's departure, which were all on the cards, we also needed an extra midfielder. Losing a versatile player like Dyer mean we'd need another versatile player. Well Smith is that. Also, we can't ignore the importance of signing good characters, especially at a club that has had a few bad characters over the years. He also had to rebuild the team spirit which was broken to the point where quite a few players were unhappy. You do this by fostering a good character which Smith's own will have aided. Smith's signing also makes more sense when you take into consideration that we could be without Martins in January and fitness concerns over Owen.

 

I'd rather we didn't sign him myself and for me he's a squad player and not good enough for the first-team on a regular basis, but I can see the logic in his signing.

 

 

i thought it was all going swimmingly until Smith came in and Dyer/Solano went out. surely if he knows the latter two are leaving he'd be looking to replace their attributes, guile and pace, so that as a squad we're not left short? It is one thing to say Barton and Emre are injured but you can't base the entire creative strategy of your squad on two players. If we'd kept Dyer, or signed a like-for-like replacement, then questions about filling the right or left or centre of midfield with a creative/pacy player wouldn't be mentioned. Instead it seems like Allardyce only looks for one type of player and that is the strong, direct, powerful type. and it is fair enough as the side needed these players, especially in defensive positions. but then in the few positions where those attributes aren't as important, where other skills take priority, he gets in another automaton with virtually none of the qualities we needed. and i don't see the claims about verstatility as being valid, Smith CANNOT play in midfield, that much has been established. As a striker he may be alright back up, though his scoring rate is up there with Ade Akinbiyi, but we shouldn't have splurged £6m on a fourth or fifth choice when we had other areas that needed to be addressed.

 

He can do a job in midfield, after all we have picked up 8 points from 15 with him in midfield. I agree though in prinbciple, he was the wrong signing but all managers make wrong signings, Smith in my opinion is the only suspect signing of an otherwise excellent summer of wheeling and dealing.

 

I don't buy into this argument about Dyer btw, a lot of rewriting of history going on here. He was in the team throughout last season and we were devoid of creativity. He is not a creative player. He has pace I grant you that but we stopped benefitting from that when Bobby left. Nobby is creative of course, but lacked the legs and wanted out anyway.

 

I'm sure our creativity problems will be addressed in time so I'm not too worried. We created lots against Wigan so we do have it in us. Barton will be key you feel as will playing Beye and Enrique at full-back so N'Zogbia and Milner can operate wide in their correct positions. We can't dicount Viduka's ability to create too, he's a creative forward in a number of ways.

 

BTW you're saying we can't base the entire creative strategy on two players, you using Dyer and and Nobby is that not what you're doing?

 

Take Ronaldo and Rooney away from Man Utd, and what do you get? A team that struggles to create their usual number of chances. Two is the norm, unless you have bags of money to sign quality in every position which Big Sam doesn't have. Seriously people are underestimating the job he had on in the summer. Building a whole new defence, padding out the squad etc. He can be forgiving for considering a combo of Duff, Emre, Barton, Milner and N'Zogbia as enough creative spark for the time being. Most teams would kill to have such players.

 

Again, lets be realistic here.

[Thespence]

Starting to think more and more that Barton is the person that will change things, in all honesty. I've said that several times since the Derby game. I can't wait for him to get back playing.

 

Don't get your hopes up too high.

 

That is not to put a downer on Barton, who I rate, but more a general point.

 

Call my cynical/ignorant/whatever, but if that's not a put-down on Barton, what is it?

 

For the record, i think Barton will change our attacking fortunes by 100%.

 

You only have to look at how well City did last year with him being playmaker

[Guest Knightrider]

That our interest in Deco and Gudjohonsen was very real as you say above HTT. Where did you gather this from?

 

I thought it was common knowledge?

 

I must be ITK then

[Baggio]

That our interest in Deco and Gudjohonsen was very real as you say above HTT. Where did you gather this from?

 

Swissmag.

[Guest Knightrider]

Over-reacted to the Derby game ?

This is the mentality which has seen us sliding down the league over the years.

Do you think Man U/Liverpool/Arsenal fans would have tolerated that shameful display ?

Thats why they are where they are, and we AREN'T.

 

That said, as opposed to last season, thus far I believe the defence to be a 100% better, the midfield about as poor, the forwards also as poor.

So slight improvement, but a long long way to go before the support gets a team worthy of it again.

 

No, appointing crap managers is why we've been sliding down the league for years. We are famous for over expectations, fickleness and high demands so where do you get our mentality being a reason for our mediocrity? Our mentality helped get rid of Roeder man. Although it also helped get rid of Sir Bobby so perhaps you do have a point somewhere in your overreaction to a 1-0 league defeat 5 games into a new season.

[Guest Knightrider]

That our interest in Deco and Gudjohonsen was very real as you say above HTT. Where did you gather this from?

 

Swissmag.

 

Close, German actually.