Bobby Robson's football nous compared to Allardyce's dogma

[EthiGeordie]

      Well HTT sometimes I don't get you and I don't get you a lot. Last time you said Mourinho is not good or better than BS now though you saying the greatest mind in the game. Even though you analysys seems intersting to say at least to drop or to sell a player like Owen for one kind of system is simply lame. We all shouldn't forget Player make systems not the other way around.

[wacko]

All the top managers have their own particular system and style. The system comes first, and players are bought and sold to suit that system. By extension, they often need time to get in the right players for that system.

 

I think Allardyce proved at Bolton that he knows what he's doing. Give the bloke 2 or 3 seasons to build the squad he wants and instill his system, I reckon he'll do the business for you.

 

I think Allardyce proved at Bolton that he could produce a team difficult to beat with meagre resources.  I may be totally wrong but my gut feeling now is that Allardyce is out of his depth with a squad which is several notches up on what he had at Bolton.

I think several notches is pushing it a bit. Thing is, at Bolton he had brought in all the players himself. NUFC might have a better squad man for man, but are they as well suited to the system? I couldn't see Allardyce signing Owen, for example, even though he's one of the best strikers in the country.

 

It may well turn out that he can't cut the mustard at a big club (just like Otto Rehhagel), but it's far too early to be making that call. You've got to give him the chance to bring in the players he wants.

[Martin Lol]

All the top managers have their own particular system and style. The system comes first, and players are bought and sold to suit that system. By extension, they often need time to get in the right players for that system.

 

I think Allardyce proved at Bolton that he knows what he's doing. Give the bloke 2 or 3 seasons to build the squad he wants and instill his system, I reckon he'll do the business for you.

 

I think Allardyce proved at Bolton that he could produce a team difficult to beat with meagre resources.  I may be totally wrong but my gut feeling now is that Allardyce is out of his depth with a squad which is several notches up on what he had at Bolton.

I think several notches is pushing it a bit. Thing is, at Bolton he had brought in all the players himself. NUFC might have a better squad man for man, but are they as well suited to the system? I couldn't see Allardyce signing Owen, for example, even though he's one of the best strikers in the country.

 

It may well turn out that he can't cut the mustard at a big club (just like Otto Rehhagel), but it's far too early to be making that call. You've got to give him the chance to bring in the players he wants.

 

I think several notches would be an appropriate description though I, like you, have no great biased opinion, just describing it as how we see it.  The system employed by SA at Bolton was designed to do a job, basically, to keep them up.  As he succeeded in that respect and over time the system evolved but not by too great a degree.  I would expect that system to have its limit where it can no longer be effective if the long term goal is to continue to take the club forward.  Moving to Newcastle and having the current squad, I think SA has already gone beyond the effectiveness of the old system.

 

I did say it was my gut feeling that Allardyce was out of his depth, time may prove me wrong, but Allardyce said he needed 5 years to take Newcastle where he wants them to be and, imho, very few managers get 5 years nowadays, especially one who was not the preferred choice of the current owner.  Personally, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to see Allardyce gone in the summer.

[wacko]

All the top managers have their own particular system and style. The system comes first, and players are bought and sold to suit that system. By extension, they often need time to get in the right players for that system.

 

I think Allardyce proved at Bolton that he knows what he's doing. Give the bloke 2 or 3 seasons to build the squad he wants and instill his system, I reckon he'll do the business for you.

 

I think Allardyce proved at Bolton that he could produce a team difficult to beat with meagre resources.  I may be totally wrong but my gut feeling now is that Allardyce is out of his depth with a squad which is several notches up on what he had at Bolton.

I think several notches is pushing it a bit. Thing is, at Bolton he had brought in all the players himself. NUFC might have a better squad man for man, but are they as well suited to the system? I couldn't see Allardyce signing Owen, for example, even though he's one of the best strikers in the country.

 

It may well turn out that he can't cut the mustard at a big club (just like Otto Rehhagel), but it's far too early to be making that call. You've got to give him the chance to bring in the players he wants.

 

I think several notches would be an appropriate description though I, like you, have no great biased opinion, just describing it as how we see it.  The system employed by SA at Bolton was designed to do a job, basically, to keep them up.  As he succeeded in that respect and over time the system evolved but not by too great a degree.  I would expect that system to have its limit where it can no longer be effective if the long term goal is to continue to take the club forward.  Moving to Newcastle and having the current squad, I think SA has already gone beyond the effectiveness of the old system.

 

I did say it was my gut feeling that Allardyce was out of his depth, time may prove me wrong, but Allardyce said he needed 5 years to take Newcastle where he wants them to be and, imho, very few managers get 5 years nowadays, especially one who was not the preferred choice of the current owner.  Personally, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to see Allardyce gone in the summer.

I totally see where you're coming from. Allardyce did a hell of a lot better than just avoiding relegation at Bolton, though, getting them into Europe more often than not in the last few seasons. I think it's too early to say whether Bolton/Allardyce couldn't go further because of Allardyce's managerial limits or Bolton's financial limits.

 

Obviously, it's too early to tell if Ashley will chop and change like the previous regime did, but it'd be a shame to see Allardyce booted out after just one season, without getting the chance to build his own team, unless he makes a complete cock-up of it. He's definitely a massive step up from Roeder.

[Martin Lol]

All the top managers have their own particular system and style. The system comes first, and players are bought and sold to suit that system. By extension, they often need time to get in the right players for that system.

 

I think Allardyce proved at Bolton that he knows what he's doing. Give the bloke 2 or 3 seasons to build the squad he wants and instill his system, I reckon he'll do the business for you.

 

I think Allardyce proved at Bolton that he could produce a team difficult to beat with meagre resources.  I may be totally wrong but my gut feeling now is that Allardyce is out of his depth with a squad which is several notches up on what he had at Bolton.

I think several notches is pushing it a bit. Thing is, at Bolton he had brought in all the players himself. NUFC might have a better squad man for man, but are they as well suited to the system? I couldn't see Allardyce signing Owen, for example, even though he's one of the best strikers in the country.

 

It may well turn out that he can't cut the mustard at a big club (just like Otto Rehhagel), but it's far too early to be making that call. You've got to give him the chance to bring in the players he wants.

 

I think several notches would be an appropriate description though I, like you, have no great biased opinion, just describing it as how we see it.  The system employed by SA at Bolton was designed to do a job, basically, to keep them up.  As he succeeded in that respect and over time the system evolved but not by too great a degree.  I would expect that system to have its limit where it can no longer be effective if the long term goal is to continue to take the club forward.  Moving to Newcastle and having the current squad, I think SA has already gone beyond the effectiveness of the old system.

 

I did say it was my gut feeling that Allardyce was out of his depth, time may prove me wrong, but Allardyce said he needed 5 years to take Newcastle where he wants them to be and, imho, very few managers get 5 years nowadays, especially one who was not the preferred choice of the current owner.  Personally, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to see Allardyce gone in the summer.

I totally see where you're coming from. Allardyce did a hell of a lot better than just avoiding relegation at Bolton, though, getting them into Europe more often than not in the last few seasons. I think it's too early to say whether Bolton/Allardyce couldn't go further because of Allardyce's managerial limits or Bolton's financial limits.

 

Obviously, it's too early to tell if Ashley will chop and change like the previous regime did, but it'd be a shame to see Allardyce booted out after just one season, without getting the chance to build his own team, unless he makes a complete cock-up of it. He's definitely a massive step up from Roeder.

 

This season is only Bolton's second season in European competition.  After the first couple of seasons up in the premiership I agree that the aim was progressively higher than just avoiding relegation.

 

I'm pretty certain I've said this here in other threads but friends of Ashley's best mate say that Ashley wants to be entertained as well as being successful and if that comes with a price so be it.  My guess would be a top quality coach/manager coming in the summer because I can't envisage there being enough entertainment being produced to make Ashley happy, even if Newcastle are moderately successful with that style of play.

[Guest Brazilianbob]

One thing i expected is that the team would go out on the pitch with a bit of fire in their bellies, especially in away games. I thought that SA got Bolton to dominate other teams physically because he didn't have the resources to but a team of skillful players.

 

Looking at us so far though, apart from away to Bolton we haven't out muscled anybody and we haven't remotely utilised the talent in the squad either.

 

I think his plans have been hurt by injuries to Emre, Barton, Owen and Viduka and also a lack of form from Milner and Geremi, that's a big hole to fill. However, whatever team we put out, we neither 'get stuck in' nor do we play some decent football.

 

One thing i expected from Sam is that we wouldn't get turned over by tryers with limited talent but that's exactly what's happened. Watching West Ham with 10 players out injured run rampant against Derby seriously pissed me off.

 

We've got some decent attacking players but they're not really threatening the opposition. I think of it like boxing, you can cover up and bob and weave all you like but if you can't show your opponent you can punch then the f**ker just won't respect you  and will keep on coming forward.

We don't punch our weight and i expected at least that tbh.

 

Good analogy and I totally agree, we are not punching our weight and that is down to one man - Sam Allardyce!

[TRon]

All the top managers have their own particular system and style. The system comes first, and players are bought and sold to suit that system. By extension, they often need time to get in the right players for that system.

 

I think Allardyce proved at Bolton that he knows what he's doing. Give the bloke 2 or 3 seasons to build the squad he wants and instill his system, I reckon he'll do the business for you.

 

I think Allardyce proved at Bolton that he could produce a team difficult to beat with meagre resources.  I may be totally wrong but my gut feeling now is that Allardyce is out of his depth with a squad which is several notches up on what he had at Bolton.

I think several notches is pushing it a bit. Thing is, at Bolton he had brought in all the players himself. NUFC might have a better squad man for man, but are they as well suited to the system? I couldn't see Allardyce signing Owen, for example, even though he's one of the best strikers in the country.

 

It may well turn out that he can't cut the mustard at a big club (just like Otto Rehhagel), but it's far too early to be making that call. You've got to give him the chance to bring in the players he wants.

 

I think several notches would be an appropriate description though I, like you, have no great biased opinion, just describing it as how we see it.  The system employed by SA at Bolton was designed to do a job, basically, to keep them up.  As he succeeded in that respect and over time the system evolved but not by too great a degree.  I would expect that system to have its limit where it can no longer be effective if the long term goal is to continue to take the club forward.  Moving to Newcastle and having the current squad, I think SA has already gone beyond the effectiveness of the old system.

 

I did say it was my gut feeling that Allardyce was out of his depth, time may prove me wrong, but Allardyce said he needed 5 years to take Newcastle where he wants them to be and, imho, very few managers get 5 years nowadays, especially one who was not the preferred choice of the current owner.  Personally, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to see Allardyce gone in the summer.

I totally see where you're coming from. Allardyce did a hell of a lot better than just avoiding relegation at Bolton, though, getting them into Europe more often than not in the last few seasons. I think it's too early to say whether Bolton/Allardyce couldn't go further because of Allardyce's managerial limits or Bolton's financial limits.

 

Obviously, it's too early to tell if Ashley will chop and change like the previous regime did, but it'd be a shame to see Allardyce booted out after just one season, without getting the chance to build his own team, unless he makes a complete cock-up of it. He's definitely a massive step up from Roeder.

 

It would be a shame and very unfair on Sam. I am disappointed though that Allardyce only seems to think there's one way to play football. When he arrived I saw him as a manager deserving of better resources that would allow him to compete at the top level. Now, having seen him put out teams outplayed by championship level sides, there is a nagging fear that he is more suited to managing small clubs who can ruffle the big boys.

[Gallowgate End]

I saw him as a manager deserving of better resources that would allow him to compete at the top level. Now, having seen him put out teams outplayed by championship level sides, there is a nagging fear that he is more suited to managing small clubs who can ruffle the big boys.

 

my thoughts exactly.

[Martin Lol]

All the top managers have their own particular system and style. The system comes first, and players are bought and sold to suit that system. By extension, they often need time to get in the right players for that system.

 

I think Allardyce proved at Bolton that he knows what he's doing. Give the bloke 2 or 3 seasons to build the squad he wants and instill his system, I reckon he'll do the business for you.

 

I think Allardyce proved at Bolton that he could produce a team difficult to beat with meagre resources.  I may be totally wrong but my gut feeling now is that Allardyce is out of his depth with a squad which is several notches up on what he had at Bolton.

I think several notches is pushing it a bit. Thing is, at Bolton he had brought in all the players himself. NUFC might have a better squad man for man, but are they as well suited to the system? I couldn't see Allardyce signing Owen, for example, even though he's one of the best strikers in the country.

 

It may well turn out that he can't cut the mustard at a big club (just like Otto Rehhagel), but it's far too early to be making that call. You've got to give him the chance to bring in the players he wants.

 

I think several notches would be an appropriate description though I, like you, have no great biased opinion, just describing it as how we see it.  The system employed by SA at Bolton was designed to do a job, basically, to keep them up.  As he succeeded in that respect and over time the system evolved but not by too great a degree.  I would expect that system to have its limit where it can no longer be effective if the long term goal is to continue to take the club forward.  Moving to Newcastle and having the current squad, I think SA has already gone beyond the effectiveness of the old system.

 

I did say it was my gut feeling that Allardyce was out of his depth, time may prove me wrong, but Allardyce said he needed 5 years to take Newcastle where he wants them to be and, imho, very few managers get 5 years nowadays, especially one who was not the preferred choice of the current owner.  Personally, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to see Allardyce gone in the summer.

I totally see where you're coming from. Allardyce did a hell of a lot better than just avoiding relegation at Bolton, though, getting them into Europe more often than not in the last few seasons. I think it's too early to say whether Bolton/Allardyce couldn't go further because of Allardyce's managerial limits or Bolton's financial limits.

 

Obviously, it's too early to tell if Ashley will chop and change like the previous regime did, but it'd be a shame to see Allardyce booted out after just one season, without getting the chance to build his own team, unless he makes a complete cock-up of it. He's definitely a massive step up from Roeder.

 

It would be a shame and very unfair on Sam. I am disappointed though that Allardyce only seems to think there's one way to play football. When he arrived I saw him as a manager deserving of better resources that would allow him to compete at the top level. Now, having seen him put out teams outplayed by championship level sides, there is a nagging fear that he is more suited to managing small clubs who can ruffle the big boys.

 

Your first highlighted sentence echoes my thoughts upon his appointment.  The second sentence echoes my feelings now.

[Begbie]

First of all; didnt Gullit resign from his job? "Newcastle's under-fire manager Ruud Gullit has resigned blaming the media for invading his privacy"

SBR took over a squad that had played 7 games without winning in the league, so comparing the start of SBR area and Big Sam area would be wrong imo. The transfer window was closed, so SBR couldnt buy players, he had to wait till the january transfer window before he could get his "own" players.  Well enough with the history lesson for now.

 

Big Sam was never my first choice as manager, but after the appointment of Graeme Souness and Glen Roeder, we couldnt excactly pick who ever we wanted. But I wanted Svennis more than Big Sam. Svennis can attract bigger and better players just for his name, he also has a large network around the world, and he wants to play football - Not just try to get a result.

 

Big Sam hasnt had the best of starts for NUFC, but thats not the problem. IMO we havent come anywere from last season, the only thing that is better is the team morale. We have gotten lucky points from teams we should go out and out play, instead we have gotten outplayed. When was the last time we played out a team? When was the last time we had a tap in goal? I actually think it was in the start of Graeme Souness's time. If Big Sam doesnt qualify for European football, he should get sacked. And i feel the transfer window in january, then we will see what his intentions are.  In most games we should enter the field trying to outplay the other team, against Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool, and Arsenal its ok to try to out muscle them, but the rest should we control the game.

 

 

Sorry for my bad English :-)

[Guest alex]

We weren't exactly great in Robson's second season either, were we? Sacking Allardyce just for not getting into Europe would be daft imo. He needs at least a couple of seasons to make his mark.

[Martin Lol]

We weren't exactly great in Robson's second season either, were we? Sacking Allardyce just for not getting into Europe would be daft imo. He needs at least a couple of seasons to make his mark.

 

Was the style of play under SBR better than would be offered under SA's leadership?  If at the end of the day Ashley thinks that he's not getting enough entertainment and wants a change of manager, that's his prerogative.

 

I accept it wouldn't be especially fair to SA be sacked so soon into his tenure but that's the way of the world, life isn't often fair.

[tmonkey]

Big Sam is doing poor atm, but if we let him bring in the players he wants, I think he'll be a success with us.

 

If things havent improved by the end of the next season, and I seriously doubt that will be the case, then Ashley should sack him.

[Guest alex]

We weren't exactly great in Robson's second season either, were we? Sacking Allardyce just for not getting into Europe would be daft imo. He needs at least a couple of seasons to make his mark.

 

Was the style of play under SBR better than would be offered under SA's leadership?  If at the end of the day Ashley thinks that he's not getting enough entertainment and wants a change of manager, that's his prerogative.

 

I accept it wouldn't be especially fair to SA be sacked so soon into his tenure but that's the way of the world, life isn't often fair.

Initially we weren't great footballing-wise under Robson. It wasn't until his third season and the arrival of Robert and Bellamy that that changed. That's just answering your initial question btw. I think the other points are valid but we'll just have to wait and see I guess.

[Guest jimmy1982]

We weren't exactly great in Robson's second season either, were we? Sacking Allardyce just for not getting into Europe would be daft imo. He needs at least a couple of seasons to make his mark.

 

Was the style of play under SBR better than would be offered under SA's leadership?  If at the end of the day Ashley thinks that he's not getting enough entertainment and wants a change of manager, that's his prerogative.

 

I accept it wouldn't be especially fair to SA be sacked so soon into his tenure but that's the way of the world, life isn't often fair.

Initially we weren't great footballing-wise under Robson. It wasn't until his third season and the arrival of Robert and Bellamy that that changed. That's just answering your initial question btw. I think the other points are valid but we'll just have to wait and see I guess.

 

Totally agree - I remember everyone feeling a bit underwhelmed at the end of his second season (but not whingeing about him as far as I can remember), but Bellamy and Robert transformed the team pretty remarkably. Robert was infuriating at times and Bellamy was wasteful in front of goal that year but combined with Shearer and Solano they posed a huge goal threat. I don't think we had a sudden change in football philosophy from one season to the next, we just had 2 players come in to perfectly compliment what we already had - Bobby has to take the credit for that. All of a sudden we looked alot slicker in attack and we have to hope that Sam will be able to do something similar with this squad eventually.

[Parky]

The first responsability of any manager is to get quality players onto the pitch.

[UV]

SBR took over a squad that had played 7 games without winning in the league, so comparing the start of SBR area and Big Sam area would be wrong imo. The transfer window was closed, so SBR couldnt buy players, he had to wait till the january transfer window before he could get his "own" players.  Well enough with the history lesson for now.

 

Cheers for the history lesson, but the transfer window wasn't used in the Premiership until the 02-03 season.

 

Sep 1999  Jose Rodrigues Alves Antunas ("Fumaca")  MID  Cantuna  Loan

Oct 1999 Kevin Gallacher FWD Blackburn £700,000

Nov 1999 Marino Rodrigues Cristovao Helder DEF Deportivo La Coruna  £500,000 (for one season)

 

The first responsability of any manager is to get quality players onto the pitch.

 

Surely the first responsibility of a manager is to get as effective a team as he can from the players at his disposal onto the pitch.

[Tooj]

The first responsability of any manager is to get quality players onto the pitch.

 

Isn't that the Director Of Football's role?

[Guest Sniffer]

Fat Sam brought in the back four he wanted tmonkey.

 

And he clearly has no confidence in them.  Or some of the other players he brought in.

[Parky]

SBR took over a squad that had played 7 games without winning in the league, so comparing the start of SBR area and Big Sam area would be wrong imo. The transfer window was closed, so SBR couldnt buy players, he had to wait till the january transfer window before he could get his "own" players.  Well enough with the history lesson for now.

 

Cheers for the history lesson, but the transfer window wasn't used in the Premiership until the 02-03 season.

 

Sep 1999  Jose Rodrigues Alves Antunas ("Fumaca")  MID  Cantuna  Loan

Oct 1999 Kevin Gallacher FWD Blackburn £700,000

Nov 1999 Marino Rodrigues Cristovao Helder DEF Deportivo La Coruna  £500,000 (for one season)

 

The first responsability of any manager is to get quality players onto the pitch.

 

Surely the first responsibility of a manager is to get as effective a team as he can from the players at his disposal onto the pitch.

 

That as well yes. But imo ultimately as the quality comes in everything else starts falling into place. We haven't added quality for sometime to the squad.

[wacko]

All the top managers have their own particular system and style. The system comes first, and players are bought and sold to suit that system. By extension, they often need time to get in the right players for that system.

 

I think Allardyce proved at Bolton that he knows what he's doing. Give the bloke 2 or 3 seasons to build the squad he wants and instill his system, I reckon he'll do the business for you.

 

I think Allardyce proved at Bolton that he could produce a team difficult to beat with meagre resources.  I may be totally wrong but my gut feeling now is that Allardyce is out of his depth with a squad which is several notches up on what he had at Bolton.

I think several notches is pushing it a bit. Thing is, at Bolton he had brought in all the players himself. NUFC might have a better squad man for man, but are they as well suited to the system? I couldn't see Allardyce signing Owen, for example, even though he's one of the best strikers in the country.

 

It may well turn out that he can't cut the mustard at a big club (just like Otto Rehhagel), but it's far too early to be making that call. You've got to give him the chance to bring in the players he wants.

 

I think several notches would be an appropriate description though I, like you, have no great biased opinion, just describing it as how we see it.  The system employed by SA at Bolton was designed to do a job, basically, to keep them up.  As he succeeded in that respect and over time the system evolved but not by too great a degree.  I would expect that system to have its limit where it can no longer be effective if the long term goal is to continue to take the club forward.  Moving to Newcastle and having the current squad, I think SA has already gone beyond the effectiveness of the old system.

 

I did say it was my gut feeling that Allardyce was out of his depth, time may prove me wrong, but Allardyce said he needed 5 years to take Newcastle where he wants them to be and, imho, very few managers get 5 years nowadays, especially one who was not the preferred choice of the current owner.  Personally, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to see Allardyce gone in the summer.

I totally see where you're coming from. Allardyce did a hell of a lot better than just avoiding relegation at Bolton, though, getting them into Europe more often than not in the last few seasons. I think it's too early to say whether Bolton/Allardyce couldn't go further because of Allardyce's managerial limits or Bolton's financial limits.

 

Obviously, it's too early to tell if Ashley will chop and change like the previous regime did, but it'd be a shame to see Allardyce booted out after just one season, without getting the chance to build his own team, unless he makes a complete cock-up of it. He's definitely a massive step up from Roeder.

 

It would be a shame and very unfair on Sam. I am disappointed though that Allardyce only seems to think there's one way to play football. When he arrived I saw him as a manager deserving of better resources that would allow him to compete at the top level. Now, having seen him put out teams outplayed by championship level sides, there is a nagging fear that he is more suited to managing small clubs who can ruffle the big boys.

 

Your first highlighted sentence echoes my thoughts upon his appointment.  The second sentence echoes my feelings now.

I agree with the first sentence, too, but isn't it really a little bit early to be judging him?

[TRon]

We weren't exactly great in Robson's second season either, were we? Sacking Allardyce just for not getting into Europe would be daft imo. He needs at least a couple of seasons to make his mark.

 

I wasn't making out SBR to be flawless, or even the benchmark. The point of the thread in the first place was to show that he was astute enough to play to the strengths of the players he had available, even if he didn't believe in direct football. I could be wrong but I don't think Allardyce's form of football is getting the best out of what he has available. Far from it.

[TRon]

All the top managers have their own particular system and style. The system comes first, and players are bought and sold to suit that system. By extension, they often need time to get in the right players for that system.

 

I think Allardyce proved at Bolton that he knows what he's doing. Give the bloke 2 or 3 seasons to build the squad he wants and instill his system, I reckon he'll do the business for you.

 

I think Allardyce proved at Bolton that he could produce a team difficult to beat with meagre resources.  I may be totally wrong but my gut feeling now is that Allardyce is out of his depth with a squad which is several notches up on what he had at Bolton.

I think several notches is pushing it a bit. Thing is, at Bolton he had brought in all the players himself. NUFC might have a better squad man for man, but are they as well suited to the system? I couldn't see Allardyce signing Owen, for example, even though he's one of the best strikers in the country.

 

It may well turn out that he can't cut the mustard at a big club (just like Otto Rehhagel), but it's far too early to be making that call. You've got to give him the chance to bring in the players he wants.

 

I think several notches would be an appropriate description though I, like you, have no great biased opinion, just describing it as how we see it.  The system employed by SA at Bolton was designed to do a job, basically, to keep them up.  As he succeeded in that respect and over time the system evolved but not by too great a degree.  I would expect that system to have its limit where it can no longer be effective if the long term goal is to continue to take the club forward.  Moving to Newcastle and having the current squad, I think SA has already gone beyond the effectiveness of the old system.

 

I did say it was my gut feeling that Allardyce was out of his depth, time may prove me wrong, but Allardyce said he needed 5 years to take Newcastle where he wants them to be and, imho, very few managers get 5 years nowadays, especially one who was not the preferred choice of the current owner.  Personally, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to see Allardyce gone in the summer.

I totally see where you're coming from. Allardyce did a hell of a lot better than just avoiding relegation at Bolton, though, getting them into Europe more often than not in the last few seasons. I think it's too early to say whether Bolton/Allardyce couldn't go further because of Allardyce's managerial limits or Bolton's financial limits.

 

Obviously, it's too early to tell if Ashley will chop and change like the previous regime did, but it'd be a shame to see Allardyce booted out after just one season, without getting the chance to build his own team, unless he makes a complete cock-up of it. He's definitely a massive step up from Roeder.

 

It would be a shame and very unfair on Sam. I am disappointed though that Allardyce only seems to think there's one way to play football. When he arrived I saw him as a manager deserving of better resources that would allow him to compete at the top level. Now, having seen him put out teams outplayed by championship level sides, there is a nagging fear that he is more suited to managing small clubs who can ruffle the big boys.

 

Your first highlighted sentence echoes my thoughts upon his appointment.  The second sentence echoes my feelings now.

I agree with the first sentence, too, but isn't it really a little bit early to be judging him?

 

It isn't a judgement mate, just a nagging fear. I agree with the Chairman that we need to look long term, but I have doubts that Allardyce's direct football can cut it at the highest level. At best maybe win a cup and be a pain in the arse team for the top sides. That's no mean feat, though you don't need to spend millions to achieve it. And I wouldn't want to wait 5 years to see it happen as Sam is implying.

 

 

[Martin Lol]

All the top managers have their own particular system and style. The system comes first, and players are bought and sold to suit that system. By extension, they often need time to get in the right players for that system.

 

I think Allardyce proved at Bolton that he knows what he's doing. Give the bloke 2 or 3 seasons to build the squad he wants and instill his system, I reckon he'll do the business for you.

 

I think Allardyce proved at Bolton that he could produce a team difficult to beat with meagre resources.  I may be totally wrong but my gut feeling now is that Allardyce is out of his depth with a squad which is several notches up on what he had at Bolton.

I think several notches is pushing it a bit. Thing is, at Bolton he had brought in all the players himself. NUFC might have a better squad man for man, but are they as well suited to the system? I couldn't see Allardyce signing Owen, for example, even though he's one of the best strikers in the country.

 

It may well turn out that he can't cut the mustard at a big club (just like Otto Rehhagel), but it's far too early to be making that call. You've got to give him the chance to bring in the players he wants.

 

I think several notches would be an appropriate description though I, like you, have no great biased opinion, just describing it as how we see it.  The system employed by SA at Bolton was designed to do a job, basically, to keep them up.  As he succeeded in that respect and over time the system evolved but not by too great a degree.  I would expect that system to have its limit where it can no longer be effective if the long term goal is to continue to take the club forward.  Moving to Newcastle and having the current squad, I think SA has already gone beyond the effectiveness of the old system.

 

I did say it was my gut feeling that Allardyce was out of his depth, time may prove me wrong, but Allardyce said he needed 5 years to take Newcastle where he wants them to be and, imho, very few managers get 5 years nowadays, especially one who was not the preferred choice of the current owner.  Personally, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to see Allardyce gone in the summer.

I totally see where you're coming from. Allardyce did a hell of a lot better than just avoiding relegation at Bolton, though, getting them into Europe more often than not in the last few seasons. I think it's too early to say whether Bolton/Allardyce couldn't go further because of Allardyce's managerial limits or Bolton's financial limits.

 

Obviously, it's too early to tell if Ashley will chop and change like the previous regime did, but it'd be a shame to see Allardyce booted out after just one season, without getting the chance to build his own team, unless he makes a complete cock-up of it. He's definitely a massive step up from Roeder.

 

It would be a shame and very unfair on Sam. I am disappointed though that Allardyce only seems to think there's one way to play football. When he arrived I saw him as a manager deserving of better resources that would allow him to compete at the top level. Now, having seen him put out teams outplayed by championship level sides, there is a nagging fear that he is more suited to managing small clubs who can ruffle the big boys.

 

Your first highlighted sentence echoes my thoughts upon his appointment.  The second sentence echoes my feelings now.

I agree with the first sentence, too, but isn't it really a little bit early to be judging him?

 

Not really much I can say that Big TRon hasn't said before.  It's far too early to be judgemental but you can start to form an opinion on what has gone on so far.  After his dozen matches or so, I would have thought you might have seen a little change evolving, to get an early indication of what he was trying to achieve, either by what was being seen on the pitch or what was being said off of it. 

 

Ramos has been at Spurs for just 4 matches and I'm not going to suggest that everything has changed because it hasn't yet.  But there are early indications that he will change things around if things are going wrong.  Kaboul's pitiful first half display of defending ended when he was subbed at half time and Chimbonda was moved into the centre for the second half......... and for the following match as well.  That sort of thing would never have happened under Jol in a milion years.  Robinson has reputedly lost 12lb  since Ramos came in, he's certainly lost a lot of weight, something that should have happened ages ago.  Driving the team on when 3-0 up against Wigan was also sending out a message.  Ramos in short has given them a kick up the backside, something that could have happened at Newcastle but which isn't readily evident to me.  SA will (and should) still get plenty of time to get things to develop but his wish that he gets 5 years to get his system to evolve won't happen imho either.

[Begbie]

Not really much I can say that Big TRon hasn't said before.  It's far too early to be judgemental but you can start to form an opinion on what has gone on so far.  After his dozen matches or so, I would have thought you might have seen a little change evolving, to get an early indication of what he was trying to achieve, either by what was being seen on the pitch or what was being said off of it. 

 

Ramos has been at Spurs for just 4 matches and I'm not going to suggest that everything has changed because it hasn't yet.  But there are early indications that he will change things around if things are going wrong.  Kaboul's pitiful first half display of defending ended when he was subbed at half time and Chimbonda was moved into the centre for the second half......... and for the following match as well.  That sort of thing would never have happened under Jol in a milion years.  Robinson has reputedly lost 12lb  since Ramos came in, he's certainly lost a lot of weight, something that should have happened ages ago.  Driving the team on when 3-0 up against Wigan was also sending out a message.  Ramos in short has given them a kick up the backside, something that could have happened at Newcastle but which isn't readily evident to me.  SA will (and should) still get plenty of time to get things to develop but his wish that he gets 5 years to get his system to evolve won't happen imho either.

 

I agree with everything youre saying here. And it was the same thing I was thinking.