Bobby Robson's football nous compared to Allardyce's dogma

[Guest Knightrider]

I thought the sacking of Gullit was 100% correct and the only option at the time because he'd not have retrieved the situation or even built on it not only because he didn't have the skills but to do so would have required selling at least 4 key senior members. In short we were heading one way under him, down.

 

Dalglish though is a different story, I thought we got his sacking wrong. We were unbeaten in the league and had started the season well when he went, yet I thought we were good for a top 8 finish at least that season, especially as Shearer was back fully fit. We were quite strong defensively under Dalglish and just lacked that balance between defence and attack, which he could have found with more time.

 

Getting back to circumstances again, Sir Bobby's job was to keep us up, Dalglish however had to rebuild, as Sam does, but that can't be done in a year or just over as was the case with Dalglish. It takes at least 3 years and in Dalglish I don't think we were at the point of no return with him to justify his sacking.

 

Back to Sam, 12 games in and we aren't even at any point yet, but still his future is a hot topic of debate it seems. Madness and I do hope we learn our lessons one day. Chopping and changing managers at the first time of trouble never leads anyway, not unless you can pluck out a world-class manager from somewhere as we did Sir Bobby.

 

Can't see too many on the horizon today though, can you?

 

Big Sam needs at least 3 years and the only time his future should be under suspicion is if we are at a point of no return, but not a Dalglish point, a Gullit one, where there is no option but to sever ties.

[NE5]

Sam did well with Bolton by playing long ball football, there is nothing to suggest that he can be a sucsess here by playing another way, its early days still so lets just wait and see.

 

So Allardyce is basically a one trick pony who can't adapt?

 

It's starting to look that way and all the dietitians and heart rate monitors won't make much of a difference to that.

 

Bring back Kieron Dyer eh , those 8 years were all a mistake 

 

[Sparks]

Sam has a right to feel to media are against him.

 

"On Remembrance weekend, Allardyce's tactics smacked of cowardice. The Geordie public will not settle for it."

 

hmm...

[NE5]

I thought the sacking of Gullit was 100% correct and the only option at the time because he'd not have retrieved the situation or even built on it not only because he didn't have the skills but to do so would have required selling at least 4 key senior members. In short we were heading one way under him, down.

 

Dalglish though is a different story, I thought we got his sacking wrong. We were unbeaten in the league and had started the season well when he went, yet I thought we were good for a top 8 finish at least that season, especially as Shearer was back fully fit. We were quite strong defensively under Dalglish and just lacked that balance between defence and attack, which he could have found with more time.

 

Getting back to circumstances again, Sir Bobby's job was to keep us up, Dalglish however had to rebuild, as Sam does, but that can't be done in a year or just over as was the case with Dalglish. It takes at least 3 years and in Dalglish I don't think we were at the point of no return with him to justify his sacking.

 

Back to Sam, 12 games in and we aren't even at any point yet, but still his future is a hot topic of debate it seems. Madness and I do hope we learn our lessons one day. Chopping and changing managers at the first time of trouble never leads anyway, not unless you can pluck out a world-class manager from somewhere as we did Sir Bobby.

 

Can't see too many on the horizon today though, can you?

 

Big Sam needs at least 3 years and the only time his future should be under suspicion is if we are at a point of no return, but not a Dalglish point, a Gullit one, where there is no option but to sever ties.

 

Some of you younger lads have to accept that for people like me asking for patience isn't that simple mate, but I do agree that we should give Allardyce time, because when I wanted him for the job, I accepted that it was a long term job. You can't legislate for things going badly pear shaped though can you ? If he were to lose the fans like Dalglish did or go into the last games of the season needing points to stay out of the bottom 3, or lose the players like Gullit did and also be looking downwards, then he would be out, and if either situation happens the club has to take action. Sad but true.

 

He can rescue the situation himself if he starts to do some sensible and straightforward things, I hope.

 

 

[Guest Knightrider]

If Owen doesn't fit. Don't play him.

 

If your unsure about Viduka/Geremi in the short and medium term, don't sign them.

 

It's the whole changing the fullbacks that makes me think Sam is as clueless as me. You sign 2 players yet you play 2 players in their wrong positions instead.

 

It's like he has no plan or no idea of what he wants.

 

And to add insult to injury the football is dire.

 

Football is a balancing act. I'd say given the ability of the team as a whole to the results and performances, as a ratio we are about near enough hitting the nail.

 

The full-back issue pisses me off too, but there will be a method in this madness, which I could try to discuss, but I don't want Baggio mistaking that as me papering over the cracks or bumming Allardyce

 

 

 

[Mick]

Is he repeating the mistakes or are his players? It's a catch 22 situation. He will have every right and every justification to expect players earning thousands a week, experienced players, to perform to a satisfactory level and produce the right results. The players are good enough, but the team itself isn't which is where the manager comes in, it's his job to make sure the team is good enough but it takes more than 12 games Mick. In football everything is about conditioning and drilling. It takes at least 12 months for even some basic things to sink in, mistakes to be rectified etc. Now if we are making the same mistakes this time next year, I'll be worrying too. And also, it isn't as if we're making these mistakes every single time we take to the pitch, is it?

 

When I said mistakes I wasn't referring to things like what Cacapa did against Portsmouth, I mean the mistakes of his team selection changing so drastically from one game to the next, we need stability in the team and he is the one who is making sure that we don't have that.  That has nothing to do with conditioning or drilling and it shouldn't take him 12 months to see that it's not working, if it does then he's way out of his depth.  The players are making mistakes but I think quite a lot of them is down to not knowing the players that come in from one game to the next, we don't need wholesale changes every game.  The fans are accused of kneejerking, the Allardyce team selection looks more like kneejerking than anything the fans say or do.

 

 

 

Mick, we are nothing like Bolton, more is the pity. Is he trying to make us like them? Maybe, maybe not, if he is, it's clear he hasn't gotten there yet, but I'm sure he will if that is indeed his intention. I myself don't think it is, which could explain why he's experimenting a lot and deploying all these weird tactics and changes. Bolton were Bolton. We are, well, I can't quite fathom what we are. Perhaps he's struggling to create a whole new way for himself and us and needs to revert back to type. I'm not going to bash him about this though, I sometimes feel we don't appreciate just how big or rather demanding a job this is. It's a hard job Mick where the line between things is often very thin or clouded.

 

I've seen enough of our play this season which looks like the Bolton that often came to St James', they were awful when we played them, nothing like the team that was supposed to be able to go to big clubs and grind out a result, when they came here they looked like a team who you had to score against then they'd be lost.  Remember the game when Roeder first took over and I think we beat them 3-1, we are a reflection of Bolton that day.  I must admit that I didn't really look out for Bolton and can only talk about how they were against us but I can see us in them.

 

 

Can we? Fans change their lineups, tactics and views on players and this and that on a weekly basis, often going from one extreme to another. Any idiot can pick the club's best 11 individuals, plonk them into 4-4-2 and say there you go, win some games, doesn't work like that though and this again gets back to not understanding or underestimating how difficult managing NUFC really is. Anyway, he's not the first manager who has fans quizzing his lineup, tactics and whatnot, go on any rival MB and swap Allardyce for Wenger, Fergie, Redknapp and whoever else. Lets get to the crux of things though, if we were winning every week people wouldn't give a s****, we aren't so everyone is looking to find the answer to why.

 

I think the idiot who picks our best 11 and drops them into a 4-4-2 will win more games than Allardyce is at the minute.  You're right that we wouldn't give a shite if we were winning every week but we're not winning anything like the number of games that we should have won.

 

Well I'll tell you why, because we're not a very good team and people need to realise this and then accept it. We are about even and punching our weight. I look at our team and manager and at least 6 players just don't fit, regardless of their ability, Owen being the most obvious example.

 

We're not a very good team, the main problem is that we're not as good as we should be with the players we have at the club, it's the job of the manager to get the best out of the players at his disposal and he's not doing it.

 

[Baggio]

If Owen doesn't fit. Don't play him.

 

If your unsure about Viduka/Geremi in the short and medium term, don't sign them.

 

It's the whole changing the fullbacks that makes me think Sam is as clueless as me. You sign 2 players yet you play 2 players in their wrong positions instead.

 

It's like he has no plan or no idea of what he wants.

 

And to add insult to injury the football is dire.

 

Football is a balancing act. I'd say given the ability of the team as a whole to the results and performances, as a ratio we are about near enough hitting the nail.

 

The full-back issue pisses me off too, but there will be a method in this madness, which I could try to discuss, but I don't want Baggio mistaking that as me papering over the cracks or bumming Allardyce

 

 

 

 

Please share these methods.

 

 

[Mick]

 

Dalglish and Gullit were appointed because we tried to repeat the success they had enjoyed at previous clubs. I know they got it wrong, and it seemed the only option at the time was to sack them accordingly, but that is exactly what Allardyce seems to be heading for just now. So I don't think we should do it again, unless it really becomes a serious situation. I suppose you could say the dismantling of Keegans team was a serious situation. What can you do other than appoint someone with a good backround and give him time ?

 

I wouldn't sack him on the basis of our league position this season, I just want to see signs that he is heading in the right direction.

 

Fook knows where you get the patience from when you get to our age, but you have no choice !!!!!!

 

Agree re Rob Lee btw.

 

 

 

I agree with that, I don't want to see Allardyce getting sacked because I want him to be a success here but for him to get more time we'll have to see something in him to suggest that he has a vision for taking the club forwards, a vision that will turn into results.  For him to do that he needs to start picking a settled side and if he's going to make changes do them on a limited basis instead of changing too much at once and every other game.  We all want stability within the club but that also means stability in the playing staff and stability in team selection.

[Guest Knightrider]

I thought the sacking of Gullit was 100% correct and the only option at the time because he'd not have retrieved the situation or even built on it not only because he didn't have the skills but to do so would have required selling at least 4 key senior members. In short we were heading one way under him, down.

 

Dalglish though is a different story, I thought we got his sacking wrong. We were unbeaten in the league and had started the season well when he went, yet I thought we were good for a top 8 finish at least that season, especially as Shearer was back fully fit. We were quite strong defensively under Dalglish and just lacked that balance between defence and attack, which he could have found with more time.

 

Getting back to circumstances again, Sir Bobby's job was to keep us up, Dalglish however had to rebuild, as Sam does, but that can't be done in a year or just over as was the case with Dalglish. It takes at least 3 years and in Dalglish I don't think we were at the point of no return with him to justify his sacking.

 

Back to Sam, 12 games in and we aren't even at any point yet, but still his future is a hot topic of debate it seems. Madness and I do hope we learn our lessons one day. Chopping and changing managers at the first time of trouble never leads anyway, not unless you can pluck out a world-class manager from somewhere as we did Sir Bobby.

 

Can't see too many on the horizon today though, can you?

 

Big Sam needs at least 3 years and the only time his future should be under suspicion is if we are at a point of no return, but not a Dalglish point, a Gullit one, where there is no option but to sever ties.

 

Some of you younger lads have to accept that for people like me asking for patience isn't that simple mate, but I do agree that we should give Allardyce time, because when I wanted him for the job, I accepted that it was a long term job. You can't legislate for things going badly pear shaped though can you ? If he were to lose the fans like Dalglish did or go into the last games of the season needing points to stay out of the bottom 3, or lose the players like Gullit did and also be looking downwards, then he would be out, and if either situation happens the club has to take action. Sad but true.

 

He can rescue the situation himself if he starts to do some sensible and straightforward things, I hope.

 

 

 

Oh I do mate, I think for fans like you and Mick its doubly hard for yous because yous have been waiting so long and have had to put up with a lot more shite than I and fans my age are likely to have to put up with unless some kind of disaster happens, but conversely, because yous have never really know any different (long waits etc.) why break the habit of a lifetime if you know what I mean

 

Me, I'm a guts and instincts man, I go off that and they tell me Big Sam is exactly what this club needs (on more levels than just the football) and that not only is he the best manager we could possibly get (at the time and still), he will also be successful. But my gut instincts also tell me it will take a long time and will involve lots of frustration and tests of my patience, better judgment and even support on the stands. I'm strong willed though so won't have a problem overcoming them and pushing them to the back of my head.

 

Expectations and demands have a lot to do with things of course, and on that front I'm probably in a small band here because mine are pretty low and probably under realistic. A top 10 finish will be good enough for me this season where as performances aren't the indicator they used to be.

 

I also accept that NUFC is probably the world's most difficult football job due to the level of close quartered scrutiny that comes with it 24-7, 52 weeks a year. People say the England job is the hardest. Bull, they get together every so many times a year and the manager gets lots of out of jail cards for most of the time (friendlies) as well as being able to select the best of the nation. At Newcastle though everything is scrutinised and intensely so from a distance that must feel like I'm sure akin to having a talking head on your shoulder jibbering away while you try to read a book, it is that claustrophobic a job. The Real Madrid job? Easy - you can go out and sign the world's best players and are regarded as one of the game's biggest clubs. Capello even bucked the trend of history winning a title twice at the club in different eras. Barca are the same, Chelsea, Man Utd and Liverpool, all easy jobs in comparison.

 

And I feel people underestimate this, especially the media who interpret a lot of the scrutiny as pressure when all it is more often than not is an obsession from people of a small city whose football club happens to dominate it. An interpretation that can cause problems for the manager and even turn things. Keegan tapped into this scrutiny and turned what has been a noose around the necks of strong men like Jack Charlton, Jim Smith, Dalglish and Souness et al, and even men as experienced as Sir Bobby, into a positive. Can Big Sam?

 

He has the balls and the thick skin, remember KK wasn't without his critics either and despite the football and the highs, could you imagine what N.O would have been like in that year we failed to win the League? KK would have been slaughtered, indeed he's now looked on by a sizable minority as a failure, a figure of fun incredibly. (Still King Kev for me and always will be, even if someone came in and won the treble, no man will ever dethrone KK)

 

But Sam needs time, lots of money and needs our unwavering support because when this club is United, it takes some stopping. It took Man Utd arguably their finest ever season and team to stop us the last time we were truly United. Of course it takes two to tango and he will need to up his own ante, but he'll get my full support because I believe in him and trust him 100%. Things like performances and quality of football are superficial things, winning is all that counts and under him we'll win a hell of a lot of games if he can put out a team that is 100% his in his preferred system, after a year or so of drilling his methods into those heads. I hope so anyway. 

 

[Guest Knightrider]

but for him to get more time we'll have to see something in him to suggest that he has a vision for taking the club forwards, a vision that will turn into results.  For him to do that he needs to start picking a settled side and if he's going to make changes do them on a limited basis instead of changing too much at once and every other game.  We all want stability within the club but that also means stability in the playing staff and stability in team selection.

 

Surely 12 games in is far too early to judge though Mick? I mean we all know his vision because he spoke about it when he was appointed, so perhaps, if we can't exactly see it on the pitch (near enough impossible to stem from just 12 games anyway) we can perhaps imagine it and share in his vision? I know we want to, you in particular who along with myself and others realised the entire club needed overhauled and still does.

 

Regarding selection policy and tactics, do you seriously think a manager renowned for playing it straight for want of a better phrase at Bolton, will chop and change and deploy strange tactics every other week of his 3 year contract, providing he lasts that long? I don't, because he's not that type of manager. And lets face it, a lot of his tinkering has been forced on him due to injuries.

 

 

[Mick]

I thought the sacking of Gullit was 100% correct and the only option at the time because he'd not have retrieved the situation or even built on it not only because he didn't have the skills but to do so would have required selling at least 4 key senior members. In short we were heading one way under him, down.

 

Dalglish though is a different story, I thought we got his sacking wrong. We were unbeaten in the league and had started the season well when he went, yet I thought we were good for a top 8 finish at least that season, especially as Shearer was back fully fit. We were quite strong defensively under Dalglish and just lacked that balance between defence and attack, which he could have found with more time.

 

Getting back to circumstances again, Sir Bobby's job was to keep us up, Dalglish however had to rebuild, as Sam does, but that can't be done in a year or just over as was the case with Dalglish. It takes at least 3 years and in Dalglish I don't think we were at the point of no return with him to justify his sacking.

 

Back to Sam, 12 games in and we aren't even at any point yet, but still his future is a hot topic of debate it seems. Madness and I do hope we learn our lessons one day. Chopping and changing managers at the first time of trouble never leads anyway, not unless you can pluck out a world-class manager from somewhere as we did Sir Bobby.

 

Can't see too many on the horizon today though, can you?

 

Big Sam needs at least 3 years and the only time his future should be under suspicion is if we are at a point of no return, but not a Dalglish point, a Gullit one, where there is no option but to sever ties.

 

Dalglish didn't have to rebuild when he came, he had to make adjustments, the rebuild was down to him making wholesale changes which were not needed.  I think the sale of Ferdinand was out of his hands and was probably an exercise in balancing the books before the club went to the stock exchange.  Dalglish thought Stephen Glass was the man to replace David Ginola, he thought Andreas Anderson and Stephane Guivarc'h were going to score goals for us  .  He also thought that a team that had twice taken us to 2nd in the league needed George Georgiadis, Carl Serrant and Garry Brady to take us to the next level 

 

I think Sir Bobby was actually the one who did have to rebuild, he took over a club which was looking like relegation material and he took over a team which had more star players on the treatment table then on the team sheet.  Sir Bobby had to reduce hte wage bill before he could spend so was fed on scraps until he got rid of players like Ferguson and Maric who were basically parasites, took a lot and gave very little.

[Mick]

 

Surely 12 games in is far too early to judge though Mick? I mean we all know his vision because he spoke about it when he was appointed, so perhaps, if we can't exactly see it on the pitch (near enough impossible to stem from just 12 games anyway) we can perhaps imagine it and share in his vision? I know we want to, you in particular who along with myself and others realised the entire club needed overhauled and still does.

 

Regarding selection policy and tactics, do you seriously think a manager renowned for playing it straight for want of a better phrase at Bolton, will chop and change and deploy strange tactics every other week of his 3 year contract, providing he lasts that long? I don't, because he's not that type of manager. And lets face it, a lot of his tinkering has been forced on him due to injuries.

 

 

 

12 games is far too early to judge anything other than the 12 games played, it's enough time though to see something positive in what we're trying to do, I'm still waiting to see it, we might see it in our next game, we'll have to wait and see.  Allardyce has a different job today than he had when he took over because what was available to him then and now, or at least what I hope is available to him now.  In May we looked like we would be selling to buy, I don't think that's the case now although I don't think he's got anything like unlimited funds, I wouldn't want him to have unlimited funds as I want to see a club built on stone, not sand.

 

I don't think Allardyce will be chopping and changing teams over a three year period because I don't think he'll be here in three years if he does.

 

Nobody would mind if he was changing because of injuries but he's not, most of the team changes have been down to choice.

 

[Guest Knightrider]

When I said mistakes I wasn't referring to things like what Cacapa did against Portsmouth, I mean the mistakes of his team selection changing so drastically from one game to the next, we need stability in the team and he is the one who is making sure that we don't have that.  That has nothing to do with conditioning or drilling and it shouldn't take him 12 months to see that it's not working, if it does then he's way out of his depth.  The players are making mistakes but I think quite a lot of them is down to not knowing the players that come in from one game to the next, we don't need wholesale changes every game.  The fans are accused of kneejerking, the Allardyce team selection looks more like kneejerking than anything the fans say or do.

 

His team does change, sometimes he has no choice to because of injuries, but I don't see this as a mistake per se because again he will have every right to expect his players regardless of who he selects and where they are used to do enough of a job to put in a performance and to pick up the right results. Indeed, for all we know, on his map of progress, perhaps he's delighted with his players for a sterling job done thus far, but in the back of his mind he'll be looking to extract more, so we can progress further? That way of thinking. We may not be sitting here happy as larry about things but he'll have a firm grasp of a much bigger picture where as we can only go off what we see once a weekend, or in today's footy a few times a week. Also, and this is where time comes in, any system, even straightforward 4-4-2s needs more than 12 games to start looking the business, especially if you are chopping and changing due to injuries or simply because as a new manager you haven't quite yet worked out who are the best players and what is the best way to use them. I think we're being extremely harsh here regarding his team selections, especially as most fans do the same when those pre-match threads pop up - change their lineup. I do agree though that a settled team with settled tactics will be more successful than one that isn't, but the way some go on, you'd think we are always going to chop and change yet Bolton would always play their strongest team if they could. Sam will too, when he finds that team.

 

 

 

I've seen enough of our play this season which looks like the Bolton that often came to St James', they were awful when we played them, nothing like the team that was supposed to be able to go to big clubs and grind out a result, when they came here they looked like a team who you had to score against then they'd be lost.  Remember the game when Roeder first took over and I think we beat them 3-1, we are a reflection of Bolton that day.  I must admit that I didn't really look out for Bolton and can only talk about how they were against us but I can see us in them.

 

Well I disagree strongly because we are everything Bolton were not. Disorganised, immobile throughout, lacking tactical nous, physically weak, lacking in stamina in vital areas and even our football is different. Yes we use the long ball (all teams do) probably even more than they did, but their football was played with a prupose, as if they were working off a plan, ours is a mess and so too are our set pieces, another thing that seperates us from Bolton. I watched a lot of their games Mick and believe me, we are nowt like them. I wish we were because we'd probably still be in the League Cup and would be in the top 6 no doubt.

 

 

I think the idiot who picks our best 11 and drops them into a 4-4-2 will win more games than Allardyce is at the minute.  You're right that we wouldn't give a shite if we were winning every week but we're not winning anything like the number of games that we should have won.

 

Like Souness or Roeder you mean? I don't agree about winning games we should have won btw. We have no right to beat the likes of Reading and Derby away, teams who have been beating us on their patch since KK's days, we always struggle against such sides away from home and that's a culture Big Sam is trying to eradicate and while sending out a team to nick a narrow win or come home with a draw may seem a roundabout way to achieve that, it is a base to build on and that's what NUFC needs. We don't have the team to Blitz a Derby away, we might have the individuals, but as a team we aren't capable of even keeping a clean sheet man. While the manager is partly responsible for that, he can't do much when they cross that line can he.

 

Btw if we win just 2 more games on the road we will equal our average number of away wins over the past 5 years. Our total average away wins since we come to the Premiership is just 5, the same number Spurs achieved to finish 5 last season, one less than Liverpool who finished 3rd. Outside of the top 4, it's a case of what you can pick up on the road, no ground is easy pickings, although Derby seem to be for everyone bar us, but we are famous for going to places like Derby against such sides and getting beat. In that context nothing has changed. If we haven't improved this time next season enough on the road, then worry. In the meantime though it's par for the cause.

 

We're not a very good team, the main problem is that we're not as good as we should be with the players we have at the club, it's the job of the manager to get the best out of the players at his disposal and he's not doing it.

 

Again I disagree, I think we are just about where we are in the league for how good we are, or rather how poor a team we are. We have fine individuals but most of them are not and never will be fine team players, that's why most of them failed to win regular spots in their previous clubs' starting elevens. Emre - what is he? Owen - he's a hard player to partner and plan around. Martins is a liability on a weekly basis from the start. He'll score a goal every 3 games but in between he gives you next to nowt. Viduka can't seem to string two games together. Milner is a frustrating player. Barton has just gotten back from injury, Butt is slow and getting on and is poor in possession. What is Geremi's best position? And so on and so on. Throw all those players into the mix and each has a question mark hanging over them, especially if you're trying to squeeze 4-3-3 out of the mix, Sam's preferred system. Sorry but I just see a team that needs major surgery at first-team level. Ironically squad wise we are very strong, but that first-team needs looked at and is more of a hniderance to the manager than a potential tool. In my opinion anyway.

[Guest Knightrider]

Mick, just like me and you with Souness this

 

Only I think I'll win this one

[Guest Knightrider]

I thought the sacking of Gullit was 100% correct and the only option at the time because he'd not have retrieved the situation or even built on it not only because he didn't have the skills but to do so would have required selling at least 4 key senior members. In short we were heading one way under him, down.

 

Dalglish though is a different story, I thought we got his sacking wrong. We were unbeaten in the league and had started the season well when he went, yet I thought we were good for a top 8 finish at least that season, especially as Shearer was back fully fit. We were quite strong defensively under Dalglish and just lacked that balance between defence and attack, which he could have found with more time.

 

Getting back to circumstances again, Sir Bobby's job was to keep us up, Dalglish however had to rebuild, as Sam does, but that can't be done in a year or just over as was the case with Dalglish. It takes at least 3 years and in Dalglish I don't think we were at the point of no return with him to justify his sacking.

 

Back to Sam, 12 games in and we aren't even at any point yet, but still his future is a hot topic of debate it seems. Madness and I do hope we learn our lessons one day. Chopping and changing managers at the first time of trouble never leads anyway, not unless you can pluck out a world-class manager from somewhere as we did Sir Bobby.

 

Can't see too many on the horizon today though, can you?

 

Big Sam needs at least 3 years and the only time his future should be under suspicion is if we are at a point of no return, but not a Dalglish point, a Gullit one, where there is no option but to sever ties.

 

Dalglish didn't have to rebuild when he came, he had to make adjustments, the rebuild was down to him making wholesale changes which were not needed.  I think the sale of Ferdinand was out of his hands and was probably an exercise in balancing the books before the club went to the stock exchange.  Dalglish thought Stephen Glass was the man to replace David Ginola, he thought Andreas Anderson and Stephane Guivarc'h were going to score goals for us  .  He also thought that a team that had twice taken us to 2nd in the league needed George Georgiadis, Carl Serrant and Garry Brady to take us to the next level 

 

I think Sir Bobby was actually the one who did have to rebuild, he took over a club which was looking like relegation material and he took over a team which had more star players on the treatment table then on the team sheet.  Sir Bobby had to reduce hte wage bill before he could spend so was fed on scraps until he got rid of players like Ferguson and Maric who were basically parasites, took a lot and gave very little.

 

Sir Bobby took over a NUFC side with the following nucleus of a good side:

 

Given

Dabizas

Domi

Speed

Solano

Dyer

Shearer

Ferguson

 

That there is a quality pool of players, much better than what Big Sam inherited.

 

Back to Dalglish, I think he had to sell in order to buy and while he didn't have to dismantle KK's team like he did (peddling the likes of Ginola), he would have had justification as a new manager for doing so, so in that respect I think he did have a rebuild job on. Lets not forget either that KK's side was an aging one, a side that had no reserve side to call on either. Lee, Beardsley, Ginola even, Sir Les and a few defenders were either past 30 or heading towards 30 and I think part of his remit was to trim the average age, slash wage bill and get rid of the stench of KK (to the new board).

 

Regarding Glass he was considered a hot prospect in Scotland and while that may not say much I remember he did have talent, quick, direct and a good cross on him, but injury prone and very light weight.

 

I'll give you the rest though, pure tat to a man.

 

Not that Dalglish was alone in that regard.

 

Fumaca, Gavilan, Cardone, Cort et al.

[Mick]

Mick, just like me and you with Souness this

 

Only I think I'll win this one

 

As back then, I hope you're right, as back then I have my doubts.

 

It's not like Souness anyway, he was shite, I'm not sure about what Allardyce can do here but I do know he's not shite.

[Guest Knightrider]

Mick, just like me and you with Souness this

 

Only I think I'll win this one

I'm not sure about what Allardyce can do here but I do know he's not shite.

 

I think this probably just adds to the frustration, knowing he's actually no mug. I agree with a lot of comments in this thread btw, such as trying to be too clever and so on but rather than slate him for it I think it's all part of the process.

 

I also think he doesn't quite realise or hasn't fully grasped what kind of club NUFC is or rather he hasn't adjusted accordingly since swapping the Reebok for St. James' Park. I think he still thinks he's at Bolton where it was his club and he could do as he pleased, basically no-one questioned him and he could often be blaze about things. Different ball game here though and he'll have to adjust and take the sizable differences on board.

 

I know he's been shocked by the level of scrutiny around the club and the gossip the club generates, recently calling it unfair

 

Do you like him as a character btw Mick? I don't know how liking or hating someone changes things but I really like Sam, I think he's a good character and ballsy. He's an interesting manager because of his views and he's quite honest too. From a communication level he's been bang on so far I think and been true to his first words when he was appointed.

[Mick]

 

I think this probably just adds to the frustration, knowing he's actually no mug. I agree with a lot of comments in this thread btw, such as trying to be too clever and so on but rather than slate him for it I think it's all part of the process.

 

I also think he doesn't quite realise or hasn't fully grasped what kind of club NUFC is or rather he hasn't adjusted accordingly since swapping the Reebok for St. James' Park. I think he still thinks he's at Bolton where it was his club and he could do as he pleased, basically no-one questioned him and he could often be blaze about things. Different ball game here though and he'll have to adjust and take the sizable differences on board.

 

I know he's been shocked by the level of scrutiny around the club and the gossip the club generates, recently calling it unfair

 

Do you like him as a character btw Mick? I don't know how liking or hating someone changes things but I really like Sam, I think he's a good character and ballsy. He's an interesting manager because of his views and he's quite honest too. From a communication level he's been bang on so far I think and been true to his first words when he was appointed.

 

I think if any manager lives, yes lives football then Newcastle is the club for them, if they want to walk away af 5pm and switch off then they'll hate it because you can't do it here.  Keegan and Sir Bobby loved football so loved the job because they fed the fans but also fed off them, if that makes sense.  Having to know the club is bollocks, you just have to be good as a manager and live football.

 

I actually like Allardyce and would love him to become a success here, he seems to have a bit of arrogance about him but that arrogance could be a part of the problem if it stops him adapting to the club.  Unlike the last two doing his job, I like listening to him, that helps even though I don't always agree with him.

[Guest Knightrider]

 

I think this probably just adds to the frustration, knowing he's actually no mug. I agree with a lot of comments in this thread btw, such as trying to be too clever and so on but rather than slate him for it I think it's all part of the process.

 

I also think he doesn't quite realise or hasn't fully grasped what kind of club NUFC is or rather he hasn't adjusted accordingly since swapping the Reebok for St. James' Park. I think he still thinks he's at Bolton where it was his club and he could do as he pleased, basically no-one questioned him and he could often be blaze about things. Different ball game here though and he'll have to adjust and take the sizable differences on board.

 

I know he's been shocked by the level of scrutiny around the club and the gossip the club generates, recently calling it unfair

 

Do you like him as a character btw Mick? I don't know how liking or hating someone changes things but I really like Sam, I think he's a good character and ballsy. He's an interesting manager because of his views and he's quite honest too. From a communication level he's been bang on so far I think and been true to his first words when he was appointed.

 

I think if any manager lives, yes lives football then Newcastle is the club for them, if they want to walk away af 5pm and switch off then they'll hate it because you can't do it here.  Keegan and Sir Bobby loved football so loved the job because they fed the fans but also fed off them, if that makes sense.  Having to know the club is bollocks, you just have to be good as a manager and live football.

 

I actually like Allardyce and would love him to become a success here, he seems to have a bit of arrogance about him but that arrogance could be a part of the problem if it stops him adapting to the club.  Unlike the last two doing his job, I like listening to him, that helps even though I don't always agree with him.

 

Pretty much my feelings Mick regarding the job and Allardyce.

[wacko]

All the top managers have their own particular system and style. The system comes first, and players are bought and sold to suit that system. By extension, they often need time to get in the right players for that system.

 

I think Allardyce proved at Bolton that he knows what he's doing. Give the bloke 2 or 3 seasons to build the squad he wants and instill his system, I reckon he'll do the business for you.

[Martin Lol]

All the top managers have their own particular system and style. The system comes first, and players are bought and sold to suit that system. By extension, they often need time to get in the right players for that system.

 

I think Allardyce proved at Bolton that he knows what he's doing. Give the bloke 2 or 3 seasons to build the squad he wants and instill his system, I reckon he'll do the business for you.

 

I think Allardyce proved at Bolton that he could produce a team difficult to beat with meagre resources.  I may be totally wrong but my gut feeling now is that Allardyce is out of his depth with a squad which is several notches up on what he had at Bolton.

[ohmelads]

All the top managers have their own particular system and style. The system comes first, and players are bought and sold to suit that system. By extension, they often need time to get in the right players for that system.

 

It's rare to see a manager given a blank cheque to buy his own squad straight away, so it's generally accepted you've got to work with what you've got until you can build your own. I don't think Benitez had long term plans for Traore or Baros, but he tried to get the best out of them while they were around. That was his job. Same with Bobby Robson, as the orignal post points out. Any manager starting out at a new club needs to be flexible, he has to build a system to suit the players until he can put his own stamp on things. You can't just wander into a club like Newcastle and expect them to play to Bolton's tactics, launching high balls to Michael Owen and Obafemi Martins, you have to be flexible until you can make your mark. Allardyce is the one being too impatient, if you ask me.

 

Michael Owen is being totally misused, while other players are struggling in unfamiliar positions. Against sunderland, (not the sort of game where you mess about), he dropped our only fit full backs (who have done a decent job up to now) for a winger and a centre back, moved our only fit right winger to the left wing, moved our only fit left winger to defence and put Barton on the right wing. He didn't have to do any of this. The fact he is "his own man" is turning out to be as much a weakness as a strength, as it proved to be for Souness. At what point does strong-willed become stubborn? Allardyce needs to start playing these players to their strengths and get the team performing. Results come before the system, he'll have plenty of time to build the squad up next summer.

[Parky]

All the top managers have their own particular system and style. The system comes first, and players are bought and sold to suit that system. By extension, they often need time to get in the right players for that system.

 

It's rare to see a manager given a blank cheque to buy his own squad straight away, so it's generally accepted you've got to work with what you've got until you can build your own. I don't think Benitez had long term plans for Traore or Baros, but he tried to get the best out of them while they were around. That was his job. Same with Bobby Robson, as the orignal post points out. Any manager starting out at a new club needs to be flexible, he has to build a system to suit the players until he can put his own stamp on things. You can't just wander into a club like Newcastle and expect them to play to Bolton's tactics, launching high balls to Michael Owen and Obafemi Martins, you have to be flexible until you can make your mark. Allardyce is the one being too impatient, if you ask me.

 

Michael Owen is being totally misused, while other players are struggling in unfamiliar positions. Against sunderland, (not the sort of game where you mess about), he dropped our only fit full backs (who have done a decent job up to now) for a winger and a centre back, moved our only fit right winger to the left wing, moved our only fit left winger to defence and put Barton on the right wing. He didn't have to do any of this. The fact he is "his own man" is turning out to be as much a weakness as a strength, as it proved to be for Souness. At what point does strong-willed become stubborn? Allardyce needs to start playing these players to their strengths and get the team performing. Results come before the system, he'll have plenty of time to build the squad up next summer.

 

To cut to the chase I think he is letting a sense of anxiety and defensive mindedness pervade the squad and switching postions around needlessly gives the wrong signals I don't care if you're Trappatoni or Cruyff.

[merlin]

I thought the sacking of Gullit was 100% correct and the only option at the time because he'd not have retrieved the situation or even built on it not only because he didn't have the skills but to do so would have required selling at least 4 key senior members. In short we were heading one way under him, down.

 

Dalglish though is a different story, I thought we got his sacking wrong. We were unbeaten in the league and had started the season well when he went, yet I thought we were good for a top 8 finish at least that season, especially as Shearer was back fully fit. We were quite strong defensively under Dalglish and just lacked that balance between defence and attack, which he could have found with more time.

 

Getting back to circumstances again, Sir Bobby's job was to keep us up, Dalglish however had to rebuild, as Sam does, but that can't be done in a year or just over as was the case with Dalglish. It takes at least 3 years and in Dalglish I don't think we were at the point of no return with him to justify his sacking.

 

Back to Sam, 12 games in and we aren't even at any point yet, but still his future is a hot topic of debate it seems. Madness and I do hope we learn our lessons one day. Chopping and changing managers at the first time of trouble never leads anyway, not unless you can pluck out a world-class manager from somewhere as we did Sir Bobby.

 

Can't see too many on the horizon today though, can you?

 

Big Sam needs at least 3 years and the only time his future should be under suspicion is if we are at a point of no return, but not a Dalglish point, a Gullit one, where there is no option but to sever ties.

 

Dalglish fell out(Big Time!) with Fletcher over Gillespie's proposed sale to Boro - from then on his card was marked. IHe was also unfortunate(as were we)that Shearer got injured at the pre-season Everton game ; had he not been, I reckon Tomasson may well have become a success at Newcastle instead of having to play at CF..

Had the side done well that season, they couldn't have sacked Dalglish at the start of the following one..

Don't forget - he took over when we were 7th in the table and we finished 2nd after winning at Arsenal on the final day...

[Guest Hodgson09]

Big Sam's tactics have mystified me of late, they rarely make sense. But one thing is apparent he is relying on our strikers to score from a minimum of chances. We simply do not look like being able to score because nothing is created as there is zero creativity in the side, and the only time we look threatening is when the ball is at Martins, or N'Zogbias feet.

 

I have never been so bored watching us play, and yet again we made another side look good, we should have lost against the unwashed but they were unlucky. Lets see what happens when we play Man U, and Arsenal