Scousers Whinging (Surprise Surprise)

[McCormick]

Sorry to say it, and I'm sure you're not bothered, but you won't win on here mate.

 

Doesn't look like he's trying to, if you're on about the post before yours. Looks pretty honest to me.

 

I didn't really read it to be honest. I just know how many people on here have strong opinions on Hillsborough etc, and usually Liverpool fans have the exact opposite views. Normally leads to slanging matches.

 

Apologies Tony.

 

 

The thing is, tony is going about it the right way, hes not coming here looking for a fight

[ohmelads]

Exactly its a fictional soap.

 

Therefore there was no need for the scriptwriter to use Hillsborough (a real event where people died)in the storyline.

 

Don't really see your logic there. Does that mean world war two should never be mentioned or given reference to in anything other than WWII films? What about 9/11? It seems a bit of a strange line for the scriptwriters to come up with on a London-based soap, but we should remember that they make references to real tragic events all the time in fictional programmes and films.

 

Do you think a storyline in Eastenders slagging off the victims of auschwitz would be acceptable in order to get ratings?

 

References to controversial, real-life events and issues appear all the time in fictional storylines on TV. This is a character whose views represent the views of plenty of people, as right or wrong as those views may be. It's not condoning those views, it's a fictional character, it's a story. Would a film such as American History X be condoning racism, or just presenting a fictional character and a story? I'm not really sure where you're going with this, but I don't see the difference with what was said on EastEnders and what you see on thousands of films, tv progs etc.

 

If your point is that the content wasn't appropriate for a daytime soap opera then I can have some sympathy, but you seem to be suggesting the programme was "slagging off the victims" ??

[Baggio]

Rumour has it that Jimmy Corkhill is being lined up for a role in the show to stop the Scousers whinging.

 

 

[Wullie]

Remember that Cracker with Robert Carlyle about Hillsborough? That was mint.

[2sheds]

Exactly its a fictional soap.

 

Therefore there was no need for the scriptwriter to use Hillsborough (a real event where people died)in the storyline.

 

Don't really see your logic there. Does that mean world war two should never be mentioned or given reference to in anything other than WWII films? What about 9/11? It seems a bit of a strange line for the scriptwriters to come up with on a London-based soap, but we should remember that they make references to real tragic events all the time in fictional programmes and films.

 

Do you think a storyline in Eastenders slagging off the victims of auschwitz would be acceptable in order to get ratings?

 

References to controversial, real-life events and issues appear all the time in fictional storylines on TV. This is a character whose views represent the views of plenty of people, as right or wrong as those views may be. It's not condoning those views, it's a fictional character, it's a story. Would a film such as American History X be condoning racism, or just presenting a fictional character and a story? I'm not really sure where you're going with this, but I don't see the difference with what was said on EastEnders and what you see on thousands of films, tv progs etc.

 

If your point is that the content wasn't appropriate for a daytime soap opera then I can have some sympathy, but you seem to be suggesting the programme was "slagging off the victims" ??

 

'Slagging off the victims' may have been the wrong phrase to use but they are still being used for cheap ratings.

 

I'd also like to add that major storylines are frequently pulled from soaps if they coincide with a major news  event, so there is some degree of sensitivity in the soap world.

 

I won't comment on films as TV operates to different standards to those of the cinema.

 

 

[ohmelads]

Exactly its a fictional soap.

 

Therefore there was no need for the scriptwriter to use Hillsborough (a real event where people died)in the storyline.

 

Don't really see your logic there. Does that mean world war two should never be mentioned or given reference to in anything other than WWII films? What about 9/11? It seems a bit of a strange line for the scriptwriters to come up with on a London-based soap, but we should remember that they make references to real tragic events all the time in fictional programmes and films.

 

Do you think a storyline in Eastenders slagging off the victims of auschwitz would be acceptable in order to get ratings?

 

References to controversial, real-life events and issues appear all the time in fictional storylines on TV. This is a character whose views represent the views of plenty of people, as right or wrong as those views may be. It's not condoning those views, it's a fictional character, it's a story. Would a film such as American History X be condoning racism, or just presenting a fictional character and a story? I'm not really sure where you're going with this, but I don't see the difference with what was said on EastEnders and what you see on thousands of films, tv progs etc.

 

If your point is that the content wasn't appropriate for a daytime soap opera then I can have some sympathy, but you seem to be suggesting the programme was "slagging off the victims" ??

 

'Slagging off the victims' may have been the wrong phrase to use but they are still being used for cheap ratings.

 

I'd also like to add that major storylines are frequently pulled from soaps if they coincide with a major news  event, so there is some degree of sensitivity in the soap world.

 

I won't comment on films as TV operates to different standards to those of the cinema.

 

 

 

All fair enough comments. Far be it from me to defend soaps (I can't stand them) but when I read the article I was expecting the comments to be a lot stronger.

[Guest Brazilianbob]

In a way I can understand the reaction of the scousers'.  I don't think I could handle the guilt of knowing my fellow fans in the ground had died because I was so desperate to get in that I pushed until they were crushed to death. Having said that, I don't think any one Liverpool fan could be singled out and accused of causing the tragedy by pushing to get in, but I do think it was more a case of collective blame on their part.  Unfortunately it is a blame that does not sit easily with them and so they accuse the easy target, the police and the authorities.  I do think it is a case of them protesting because they cannot shake off that element of blame they personally apportion to themselves in this sad affair.

I suggest you read the Taylor report. It seems you are slightly misinformed there.

 

On the contrary I have read the report, but what has been glossed over is the fact that the Liverpool fans were desperate to get into the Leppings Lane End and simply pushed from the back to try and force their way in.  Granted they had been directed there by the police and they must take some blame, but the way they tell it, it was the police who doing all the pushing.

 

I was in the Leppings Lane end for our semi final against Burnley in 1974, so I know what that end is like, the tunnel is a bottle neck and incoming fans should spread out to the sides of the terrace to make room for those coming through the tunnel, but the fans on the terrace want to be right where the tunnel opens on to the terrace because it gives the best view of the pitch.  They don't want to go down to the front because the view is poor.  When I was there even our fans behaved like morons coming through the tunnel, they were so excited to see our team they literally put their backs into pushing their way out of the tunnel, giving no thought to those already on the terrace.  I started out in front of the tunnel and ended up being pushed right to the front where the view was so poor, me and a mate decided to go up into the stands above where the were some empty seats.

[ewerk]

I'd have a lot more sympathy for them if things like Athens didn't keep happening.

Was not the only time it happened I am sorry to say. People tried similar at Eindhoven in the quarter final. Only 1600 tickets and the tickets were identical to when we played them in the group stage which didn't help. One had 12-09-2006 the other had 03-04-2007, both tiny in the bottom corner. Apart from that they were carbon copies! Club screwed the independent travellers over (myself included) an gave all the tickets to official tours. So loads were trying (myself included) to get in on the group stage ticket. When I got fucked off, as everyone else did trying the same, I went to the bar. A group just tried to push the crowd forward but the away metal compound you go into at Eindhoven is as 'bunk proof' as you get. A couple of people at the front were lucky to not get seriously injured.

 

 

Do you have some sort of devine right to get into every Liverpool game? You can't justify it by saying that it's the ground's fault for not checking your ticket. This sort of thing doesn't appear to be uncommon by Liverpool fans, there was a scouser on Toontastic last season as well looking to see if he could get into SJP on the previous season's ticket. If you haven't got a ticket don't try to get in.

[Howaythelads]

I'd have a lot more sympathy for them if things like Athens didn't keep happening.

Was not the only time it happened I am sorry to say. People tried similar at Eindhoven in the quarter final. Only 1600 tickets and the tickets were identical to when we played them in the group stage which didn't help. One had 12-09-2006 the other had 03-04-2007, both tiny in the bottom corner. Apart from that they were carbon copies! Club screwed the independent travellers over (myself included) an gave all the tickets to official tours. So loads were trying (myself included) to get in on the group stage ticket. When I got fucked off, as everyone else did trying the same, I went to the bar. A group just tried to push the crowd forward but the away metal compound you go into at Eindhoven is as 'bunk proof' as you get. A couple of people at the front were lucky to not get seriously injured.

 

It pisses most of our fans off that these pricks wear the justice stickers etc then do this. Don't mind anyone trying to blag in but trying to force your way in is just stupid, not to mention potentially dangerous.

 

Same in Athens. One of our lads got in on a ripped up pepsi cup! But if he was stopped he would not have forced in. Just the same bunch of pricks who always do the forcing, knocking over women stewards and robbing tickets off their own fans, the 18-25 'fuck you I will do what I want' brigade. When people see this it is understandable that they think we are hypocrites. But it is these 18-25 gobshites who fuck things up. Our support has gone downhill since Istanbul, particularly the 'big' euro aways such as Barca etc where every twat comes out the woodwork and behaves like a tool! Also this aggression amongst scouse lads to non local supporters who have 'robbed their ticket'.

 

So yes these knobheads don't exactly help.

 

However while I don't condone what these people did in Athens, a proper stadium that actually had turnstiles and proper ticket checks would have sorted it out. We have acknowledged our part of the blame. Just a shame UEFA don't fuckin acknowledge theirs. a, by choosing a stadium with unfit security procedures b, holding it in a tin pot country again just like they are this season and c, the corporate hijack of tickets which created that situation. Does not excuse the behaviour of these knobheads. But if the tickets were given to the two teams involved in the match, then that would not have happened. And to think it was nearly Man U v Liverpool final! Would have been ten times as bad!

 

It's always someone else's fault with you twats. You lot simply refuse to take responsibility for your actions.

 

The bit in bold sums up the Liverpool support very well and is why you cause incidents almost everywhere you go. If you don't have a ticket, don't bloody well go.

 

Getting the whole country banned from European football and setting us back years hasn't made any impression on you lot, has it. You still cause trouble all over the show.

[Guest king harry]

I'd have a lot more sympathy for them if things like Athens didn't keep happening.

Was not the only time it happened I am sorry to say. People tried similar at Eindhoven in the quarter final. Only 1600 tickets and the tickets were identical to when we played them in the group stage which didn't help. One had 12-09-2006 the other had 03-04-2007, both tiny in the bottom corner. Apart from that they were carbon copies! Club screwed the independent travellers over (myself included) an gave all the tickets to official tours. So loads were trying (myself included) to get in on the group stage ticket. When I got f***** off, as everyone else did trying the same, I went to the bar. A group just tried to push the crowd forward but the away metal compound you go into at Eindhoven is as 'bunk proof' as you get. A couple of people at the front were lucky to not get seriously injured.

 

It pisses most of our fans off that these pricks wear the justice stickers etc then do this. Don't mind anyone trying to blag in but trying to force your way in is just stupid, not to mention potentially dangerous.

 

Same in Athens. One of our lads got in on a ripped up pepsi cup! But if he was stopped he would not have forced in. Just the same bunch of pricks who always do the forcing, knocking over women stewards and robbing tickets off their own fans, the 18-25 'f*** you I will do what I want' brigade. When people see this it is understandable that they think we are hypocrites. But it is these 18-25 gobshites who f*** things up. Our support has gone downhill since Istanbul, particularly the 'big' euro aways such as Barca etc where every t*** comes out the woodwork and behaves like a tool! Also this aggression amongst scouse lads to non local supporters who have 'robbed their ticket'.

 

So yes these knobheads don't exactly help.

 

However while I don't condone what these people did in Athens, a proper stadium that actually had turnstiles and proper ticket checks would have sorted it out. We have acknowledged our part of the blame. Just a shame UEFA don't fuckin acknowledge theirs. a, by choosing a stadium with unfit security procedures b, holding it in a tin pot country again just like they are this season and c, the corporate hijack of tickets which created that situation. Does not excuse the behaviour of these knobheads. But if the tickets were given to the two teams involved in the match, then that would not have happened. And to think it was nearly Man U v Liverpool final! Would have been ten times as bad!

 

It's always someone else's fault with you twats. You lot simply refuse to take responsibility for your actions.

 

The bit in bold sums up the Liverpool support very well and is why you cause incidents almost everywhere you go. If you don't have a ticket, don't bloody well go.

 

Getting the whole country banned from European football and setting us back years hasn't made any impression on you lot, has it. You still cause trouble all over the show.

 

 

To be fair the european ban didnt make any diffrence to newcastle.

[madras]

I'd have a lot more sympathy for them if things like Athens didn't keep happening.

Was not the only time it happened I am sorry to say. People tried similar at Eindhoven in the quarter final. Only 1600 tickets and the tickets were identical to when we played them in the group stage which didn't help. One had 12-09-2006 the other had 03-04-2007, both tiny in the bottom corner. Apart from that they were carbon copies! Club screwed the independent travellers over (myself included) an gave all the tickets to official tours. So loads were trying (myself included) to get in on the group stage ticket. When I got f***** off, as everyone else did trying the same, I went to the bar. A group just tried to push the crowd forward but the away metal compound you go into at Eindhoven is as 'bunk proof' as you get. A couple of people at the front were lucky to not get seriously injured.

 

It pisses most of our fans off that these pricks wear the justice stickers etc then do this. Don't mind anyone trying to blag in but trying to force your way in is just stupid, not to mention potentially dangerous.

 

Same in Athens. One of our lads got in on a ripped up pepsi cup! But if he was stopped he would not have forced in. Just the same bunch of pricks who always do the forcing, knocking over women stewards and robbing tickets off their own fans, the 18-25 'f*** you I will do what I want' brigade. When people see this it is understandable that they think we are hypocrites. But it is these 18-25 gobshites who f*** things up. Our support has gone downhill since Istanbul, particularly the 'big' euro aways such as Barca etc where every t*** comes out the woodwork and behaves like a tool! Also this aggression amongst scouse lads to non local supporters who have 'robbed their ticket'.

 

So yes these knobheads don't exactly help.

 

However while I don't condone what these people did in Athens, a proper stadium that actually had turnstiles and proper ticket checks would have sorted it out. We have acknowledged our part of the blame. Just a shame UEFA don't fuckin acknowledge theirs. a, by choosing a stadium with unfit security procedures b, holding it in a tin pot country again just like they are this season and c, the corporate hijack of tickets which created that situation. Does not excuse the behaviour of these knobheads. But if the tickets were given to the two teams involved in the match, then that would not have happened. And to think it was nearly Man U v Liverpool final! Would have been ten times as bad!

 

It's always someone else's fault with you twats. You lot simply refuse to take responsibility for your actions.

 

The bit in bold sums up the Liverpool support very well and is why you cause incidents almost everywhere you go. If you don't have a ticket, don't bloody well go.

 

Getting the whole country banned from European football and setting us back years hasn't made any impression on you lot, has it. You still cause trouble all over the show.

 

 

To be fair the european ban didnt make any diffrence to newcastle.

i think thats why HTL posted "the whole country" not "nufc"

[Guest Tiger Tony]

Do you have some sort of devine right to get into every Liverpool game? You can't justify it by saying that it's the ground's fault for not checking your ticket. This sort of thing doesn't appear to be uncommon by Liverpool fans, there was a scouser on Toontastic last season as well looking to see if he could get into SJP on the previous season's ticket. If you haven't got a ticket don't try to get in.

One journalist said after Athens: "every fan of every team believes he has a god given right to see his team play in any game they choose". This attitude tends to rear it's head for major games such as finals where tickets are very scarce. He went on to say: "However it is Liverpool fans who are most determined to exercise this 'right' in whatever way possible". This I agree with. Not just because of this. Also FA cup final tickets being robbed out of the post in 2006 is indicative of the same problem in a different way.

 

It is human nature that if there is a chance of getting in when you are desperate for something you give it a try. If you got to the uefa cup final in 2004, when you were in the semis, you would have only got 10 000 tickets or so. Alot more would have travelled. You telling me none of your lot would try to get in without a ticket?! Not talking forcing, just passing tickets back or sneaking through or whatever. Of course they would, as would any well supported team. It has happened with Man U fans abroad. Lille for example but you ain't so keen to mention them?!

 

Whilst I can't condone forcing a gate or a turnstile or a wall ala Athens, I say fair play to those that got in on ripped up pepsi cups etc. When you have been all your clubs European games and you are denied a ticket for the big one because of the cunting corporate hijack can you blame people for trying to SNEAK in? UEFA, as event organisers, have a duty of care to ensure it's legitimate ticket holders get into the event. At any major event where demand exceeds supply, and this is not exclusive to football games, people try to get in without tickets. It is the organisers duty to ensure they don't get in.

 

So for this once in a lifetime chance (I know we were in the final 2 years ago too but you get what I mean) you can walk in totally unchallenged, which is what some did? You wouldn't do that? Course you wouldn't!

 

As for the Eindhoven episode, maybe 5 or 6 slipped through the net on the ticket scam, big wow! Was it that unreasonable for me to try and scam entry through NON forceful means after I SHOULD have had a ticket but the gobshites who went on official travel had off my ticket because they were daft enough to get had for £269 for a flight while I did flights and 3 nights hotel and trains for about £100 less than that?! And the clubs ticket allocation process is fucked up. They also did not tell me I did not have a ticket until 4 days before the game. So it was impossible to wait that late to book. So including spends I forked out £400 and got done out of a ticket unfairly and try to blag in through NON forceful means, what a heinous crime!

 

Just to clarify I am not justifying certain behaviour by saying "they should check tickets properly". But UEFA absolving themselves of blame when they have fucked up too is pathetic. They have to take a decent slice of blame. And if we were given 25 000 tickets each, under Platini's new proposals it will be minimum 28 000 per finalist, this would NOT have happened. UEFA created the conditions for this to happen, that is Undisputable. If they did not hijack the tickets for corporate bastards then there would not have been groups of angry scallies forcing their way in.

 

As for the supporter asking if he could get in on last seasons ticket. Probably I would say. Your ticket design has not changed in the last 5 years and never any pre turnstile check at  SJP to filter out the people on under 16 tickets not that I mind paying adult at SJP. Its Chelsea I refuse to pay more than under 16 price!

 

It's always someone else's fault with you twats. You lot simply refuse to take responsibility for your actions.

 

The bit in bold sums up the Liverpool support very well and is why you cause incidents almost everywhere you go. If you don't have a ticket, don't bloody well go.

 

Getting the whole country banned from European football and setting us back years hasn't made any impression on you lot, has it. You still cause trouble all over the show.

Refuse to take SOME responsibility? Incorrect. Refuse to take ALL responsibility? Correct. As UEFA and local police forces and in the case of Heysel the Juve hoolies need to accept their more than fair share of the blame but they don't. English? You're to blame is these tossers attitude. As highlighted in another discussion. What English fans get done for and what foreign fans get done for are completely different.

 

I have already answered the don't have a ticket don't go point but when the club only confirm your ticket, or not in this case, a few days before, in the real World it is impossible to wait that long to book travel/hotels. Catch 22. If you had a chance to get in unchallenged to your club's biggest game you wouldn't try it? Bollocks. Especially when as already mentioned corporate scum hijack tickets. Give the tickets to the fans, potential for problems cut right down. Istanbul, everyone had a ticket, no problems! Both sets of fans praised. For the first time in a European cup final NOT ONE SINGLE ARREST. What bad fans we are. Fast forward to Athens, what changed?

 

Cause incidents almost everywhere we go? In the last 5 years there has been major incidents with us in Rome, Basle, Athens. Zero at home Euro games. One major incident v Man U in cup but after all the shite we get there and off the Manc police they were fuckin owed that. And don't even dare come back with some smart arse comment re the Manc trouble because I know what goes on when you play Sunderland, I even saw it first hand last time you played them at SJP as I live in Newcastle you see and watched that game in the Strawberry. And the behaviour of some of your fans outside turnstiles 84 and 85 was appalling. Not having a go, thought it was fuckin hilarious. But just making the point that kick offs occur when major rivals meet. Also when you played the Mancs new years day it almost went off in the Union Rooms didn't it opposite the station! How do I know that, I was working in there that day!

 

Getting us all banned from Europe? Enlighten me as to how it affected Newcastle?! Sound like an Everton fan. If it hadn't been for Heysel they would have landed on Mars, if you didn't know that already. Go onto their cretinous forums to hear their incessant whining.

 

But your assertion that we still cause trouble all over the show is totally wide of the mark. And unless you have actually been to Liverpool games home, away and Europe you are not really qualified to comment are you? We won a fair play award in 2001 off UEFA, praised for Istanbul behaviour. No noteable incidents in last 5 years except Athens and Man U FA cup. We're so bad. Before you mention William Gaylord's list of 25 incidents or whatever it was I would just like to say this dossier was never produced let alone handed over to Richard Caborn. Even Platini said it did not exist.

 

I by no means think all our fans are angels. I earlier said the knobs tend to rear their heads for knockout Euro aways after the group stage. But when there is 40 000 in Athens, and say up to 500 behave like twats, it is a very small percentage and happens in any group of fans, you get knobheads! But they get the headlines! That is a high estimate btw it was probably less than that and I was in Athens so am qualified to comment because I ACTUALLY SAW what went on. Same in Barca, 15 000 or so over there in total, about 100 behave like absolute cunts. Not brought into the media, but that was what was discussed on our forums, not the 14 900. There are bad apples in every cart but they are in the huge minority.

 

Don't want to get into serious arguments on here as I come on to get opinions for an article I am doing. Obviously living here I get on well with Newcastle folk but what you said there is a tad out of order and generalising. Calling us all twats was abit unnecessary.

[madras]

tiger tony---why do you think liverpool have such a bad reputation for this sort of thing ?

 

then the getting us all banned "enlighten me how this affected newcastle" is pointless as already pointed out he meant english teams and it makes you appear that you'd think because it didn't affect us it nullifies the point.

[ewerk]

Whilst I can't condone forcing a gate or a turnstile or a wall ala Athens, I say fair play to those that got in on ripped up pepsi cups etc. When you have been all your clubs European games and you are denied a ticket for the big one because of the cunting corporate hijack can you blame people for trying to SNEAK in? UEFA, as event organisers, have a duty of care to ensure it's legitimate ticket holders get into the event. At any major event where demand exceeds supply, and this is not exclusive to football games, people try to get in without tickets. It is the organisers duty to ensure they don't get in.

 

I know you've said you're not blaming UEFA completely but that's what it sounds like above, the situation is far from perfect but that's just how it is at the moment and what you have to accept. You say you can't condone forcing a turnstile but what do you think causes people to do such things? Because there are too many crowding round the turnstiles trying to blag their way in causing congestion and frustrating everyone else in the process, causing people to start pushing.

 

You might say you don't condone it but you are contributing to it by trying to get into a game you shouldn't be at. You can blame UEFA, the club or the 'corporate cunts' for the situation but what you can't deny is that there would be no problems with over crowding or pushing if people such as yourself didn't try to blag their way in when they have no right to be in the ground. So while others contribute to the problem the vast majority of the blame has to fall on those fans who are trying to pull a fly one.

[Guest Tiger Tony]

tiger tony---why do you think liverpool have such a bad reputation for this sort of thing ?

 

then the getting us all banned "enlighten me how this affected newcastle" is pointless as already pointed out he meant english teams and it makes you appear that you'd think because it didn't affect us it nullifies the point.

This is not the only club that does it you know. Man U fans do it domestically. The other season against Arsenal when the exit gates were opened at 3/4 time 500 or so piled in! 500 piling into an area that held 2600 or so is very dangerous. Its not the only time they have done it yet nothing seems to be said there. I have never seen this happen at a domestic game with Liverpool, and only seen 2 incidents on Euro aways, Athens and Eindhoven. Not like it happens ALL the time. I haven't even seen any major bother with opposition fans or locals apart from in Italy and south of France Nice/Marseille area.

 

I still firmly believe the ticket situation was the root cause of it, therefore making Athens largely UEFA'S fault. Despite Parry's warnings about security, despitre warnings of 5000 forged tickets in circulation, and fuck me you could tell them a mile off before you used the UV scanner, there was no effort to bolster security or weed them out. It does not excuse the behaviour of a MINORITY. BUT if the seed isn't put in the ground the plant won't grow will it? UEFA planted the seed by giving us and Milan 17 000 each in a 64 000 seater ground! As I highlighted earlier, Istanbul NOT A SINGLE ARREST for the first time in a champions league final. This despite the fact there were 40 000+ there and previous England/Turkey problems. Athens, a total mess. Difference? Inadequate number of tickets. Who is responsible for robbing too many tickets from the teams actually playing the game? UEFA. I went down to the ground on the morning of the game on a reconnaissance mission, and it was obivous that a load of people would be trying their luck as it was obvious that it was going to be a pinging piece of piss to get in. Nowif the security looked decent, word would have gone back that it's not worth it, go to a bar or a square showing the game. But because of this text messages pinged round all over the show that it was going to be easy. As I say, any teams fans in this situation would try their luck would they not? If Man U had got through the problem would be doubled as their fans would have done exactly the same and would have had the same ticketing issues! If this was held at Wembley or in Germany it would not have happened due to adequate security in terms of policing, stewarding and turnstiles. The stadium in Athens did not even have turnstiles FFS!

 

Fair enough re the Heysel point.

 

But I'm afraid there is alot of misconception over the events of Heysel and proportioning 100% of the blame towards us is unbelievable. Why were English clubs banned? UEFA wanted to end their clubs dominance. Of course 39 innocent people lost their lives, which is very sad.  But they failed to consider the amount of our fans that got stabbed and beat up to within an inch of their lives in Rome the year before. Then a year later we warn UEFA the stadium is literally falling apart, having a neutral section between the 2 sets of fans will result in tickets being touted and a dangerous mixed zone which will result in trouble, they did not listen. What’s new? These tickets are indeed touted to mostly Italians. Then they attack our fans with rocks and flares etc. We were separated by a chicken wire fence. They also drag a 12 year old lad through from our side and start beating the shit out of him. Were we meant to stand there and accept that, especially after Rome the year before? We retaliated. Sadly 39 people who weren’t involved in the confrontations were killed which is tragic. And us charging the Juve fans led to that. BUT why did we charge at the Juve fans? Aren’t their hooligans at least partly to blame for attacking us first? Aren’t UEFA partly to blame for creating a situation where opposing fans could be so close together? Aren’t UEFA partly to blame for choosing a crumbling stadium that was falling apart, and literally fell apart in tragic circumstances?

 

Now I am not absolving Liverpool fans of blame, but I am absolving them of parts of the blame. Can you also honestly say if it was the other way round Italian clubs would be banned? Doubt it. UEFA’s agenda against English clubs and the national team continues to this day.

 

People also need to look up the definition of murder, and realise that what happened at Heysel was manslaughter, and not murder. But answer me this, if we were banned for that, why weren’t Italian teams banned when Roma fans stabbed us all over the place and beat our fans up, bricked our coaches etc in 1984. Why haven’t Italian teams been banned for incidents involving Juve and Roma in Europe all the time. Fans getting beaten up with baseball bats and iron bars, stabbings, missile attacks inside the stadium? Not to mention scooters getting lobbed off the top tier, police getting killed, police killing a fan? Also referees getting hit by coins. That is just the tip of the iceberg. Double standards I believe. Why weren’t Turkish clubs banned seeing as their fans did MURDER opposing fans in April 2000?

 

So yes what happened at Heysel was tragic, 39 innocent people lost their lives. We have to accept our proportion of the blame. But if people, when looking at the whole picture, can’t spot an agenda or the blatant fact that part of the blame should be proportioned elsewhere then they are blinkered. Also if anyone can provide an answer as to why MURDER is allowed by other countries fans and incessant stabbings, GBH and near murder, possibly even attempted murder is allowed, amongst other things, while the moment an English club or our national team is involved in something nowhere near as bad we get threatened with expulsion from tournaments and record fines, then I would be very interested to hear it.

 

[Colos Short and Curlies]

tiger tony---why do you think liverpool have such a bad reputation for this sort of thing ?

 

then the getting us all banned "enlighten me how this affected newcastle" is pointless as already pointed out he meant english teams and it makes you appear that you'd think because it didn't affect us it nullifies the point.

This is not the only club that does it you know. Man U fans do it domestically. The other season against Arsenal when the exit gates were opened at 3/4 time 500 or so piled in! 500 piling into an area that held 2600 or so is very dangerous. Its not the only time they have done it yet nothing seems to be said there. I have never seen this happen at a domestic game with Liverpool, and only seen 2 incidents on Euro aways, Athens and Eindhoven. Not like it happens ALL the time. I haven't even seen any major bother with opposition fans or locals apart from in Italy and south of France Nice/Marseille area.

 

I still firmly believe the ticket situation was the root cause of it, therefore making Athens largely UEFA'S fault. Despite Parry's warnings about security, despitre warnings of 5000 forged tickets in circulation, and f*** me you could tell them a mile off before you used the UV scanner, there was no effort to bolster security or weed them out. It does not excuse the behaviour of a MINORITY. BUT if the seed isn't put in the ground the plant won't grow will it? UEFA planted the seed by giving us and Milan 17 000 each in a 64 000 seater ground! As I highlighted earlier, Istanbul NOT A SINGLE ARREST for the first time in a champions league final. This despite the fact there were 40 000+ there and previous England/Turkey problems. Athens, a total mess. Difference? Inadequate number of tickets. Who is responsible for robbing too many tickets from the teams actually playing the game? UEFA. I went down to the ground on the morning of the game on a reconnaissance mission, and it was obivous that a load of people would be trying their luck as it was obvious that it was going to be a pinging piece of piss to get in. Nowif the security looked decent, word would have gone back that it's not worth it, go to a bar or a square showing the game. But because of this text messages pinged round all over the show that it was going to be easy. As I say, any teams fans in this situation would try their luck would they not? If Man U had got through the problem would be doubled as their fans would have done exactly the same and would have had the same ticketing issues! If this was held at Wembley or in Germany it would not have happened due to adequate security in terms of policing, stewarding and turnstiles. The stadium in Athens did not even have turnstiles FFS!

 

Fair enough re the Heysel point.

 

But I'm afraid there is alot of misconception over the events of Heysel and proportioning 100% of the blame towards us is unbelievable. Why were English clubs banned? UEFA wanted to end their clubs dominance. Of course 39 innocent people lost their lives, which is very sad.  But they failed to consider the amount of our fans that got stabbed and beat up to within an inch of their lives in Rome the year before. Then a year later we warn UEFA the stadium is literally falling apart, having a neutral section between the 2 sets of fans will result in tickets being touted and a dangerous mixed zone which will result in trouble, they did not listen. Whats new? These tickets are indeed touted to mostly Italians. Then they attack our fans with rocks and flares etc. We were separated by a chicken wire fence. They also drag a 12 year old lad through from our side and start beating the s*** out of him. Were we meant to stand there and accept that, especially after Rome the year before? We retaliated. Sadly 39 people who werent involved in the confrontations were killed which is tragic. And us charging the Juve fans led to that. BUT why did we charge at the Juve fans? Arent their hooligans at least partly to blame for attacking us first? Arent UEFA partly to blame for creating a situation where opposing fans could be so close together? Arent UEFA partly to blame for choosing a crumbling stadium that was falling apart, and literally fell apart in tragic circumstances?

 

Now I am not absolving Liverpool fans of blame, but I am absolving them of parts of the blame. Can you also honestly say if it was the other way round Italian clubs would be banned? Doubt it. UEFAs agenda against English clubs and the national team continues to this day.

 

People also need to look up the definition of murder, and realise that what happened at Heysel was manslaughter, and not murder. But answer me this, if we were banned for that, why werent Italian teams banned when Roma fans stabbed us all over the place and beat our fans up, bricked our coaches etc in 1984. Why havent Italian teams been banned for incidents involving Juve and Roma in Europe all the time. Fans getting beaten up with baseball bats and iron bars, stabbings, missile attacks inside the stadium? Not to mention scooters getting lobbed off the top tier, police getting killed, police killing a fan? Also referees getting hit by coins. That is just the tip of the iceberg. Double standards I believe. Why werent Turkish clubs banned seeing as their fans did MURDER opposing fans in April 2000?

 

So yes what happened at Heysel was tragic, 39 innocent people lost their lives. We have to accept our proportion of the blame. But if people, when looking at the whole picture, cant spot an agenda or the blatant fact that part of the blame should be proportioned elsewhere then they are blinkered. Also if anyone can provide an answer as to why MURDER is allowed by other countries fans and incessant stabbings, GBH and near murder, possibly even attempted murder is allowed, amongst other things, while the moment an English club or our national team is involved in something nowhere near as bad we get threatened with expulsion from tournaments and record fines, then I would be very interested to hear it.

 

 

There was at least one arrest associated with the game in Istanbul (if not in Istanbul itself).

 

I got banned from a Newsagent for not signing a petition to free the perpitrator!

[Guest Tiger Tony]

I know you've said you're not blaming UEFA completely but that's what it sounds like above, the situation is far from perfect but that's just how it is at the moment and what you have to accept. You say you can't condone forcing a turnstile but what do you think causes people to do such things? Because there are too many crowding round the turnstiles trying to blag their way in causing congestion and frustrating everyone else in the process, causing people to start pushing.

 

You might say you don't condone it but you are contributing to it by trying to get into a game you shouldn't be at. You can blame UEFA, the club or the 'corporate c***s' for the situation but what you can't deny is that there would be no problems with over crowding or pushing if people such as yourself didn't try to blag their way in when they have no right to be in the ground. So while others contribute to the problem the vast majority of the blame has to fall on those fans who are trying to pull a fly one.

To clarify, I had a legal ticket.

 

As per my earlier analogy, 'if no seed is put in the ground the plant can't grow'. UEFA well and truly put the seed in the ground. Hence why there was no problem in Istanbul 2 years earlier against the same team. By having too few tickets allocated to the finalists UEFA created that situation. Also at our Cardiff finals there was always thousands ticketless, but never similar problems, why not? There were some trying to blag in, granted not as many, but they were filtered out quickly and efficiently.

 

Also if security was decent ala Cardiff word would have gone back from the Olympic stadium not to bother. As it was 40 minutes from central Athens to the olympic village on the metro if the security was the promised 'ring of steel' then people would not have bothered chancing it. Instead everyone is told that it is a farce.

 

Does not excuse certain behaviour but the conditions for such potential chaos were not laid down by us. This would not happen in England or Germany in this day and age.

 

And to think the next 2 finals are in Moscow and Rome, UEFA are going to have blood on their hands very soon.

[Guest Tiger Tony]

Scott that was in Bulgaria and was not really associated with football. That was a case of locals and groups of young Brits running into confrontations all week. Saw similar stuff in Faliraki in May myself. So can't really say that is a case of Liverpool fan behaviour. Which newsagent did you get banned from?! Bit harsh isn't it. Based on the evidence and police reports/investigation techniques I think they have got the wrong man. But expecting EVERYONE to sign it?!

[Colos Short and Curlies]

I know you've said you're not blaming UEFA completely but that's what it sounds like above, the situation is far from perfect but that's just how it is at the moment and what you have to accept. You say you can't condone forcing a turnstile but what do you think causes people to do such things? Because there are too many crowding round the turnstiles trying to blag their way in causing congestion and frustrating everyone else in the process, causing people to start pushing.

 

You might say you don't condone it but you are contributing to it by trying to get into a game you shouldn't be at. You can blame UEFA, the club or the 'corporate c***s' for the situation but what you can't deny is that there would be no problems with over crowding or pushing if people such as yourself didn't try to blag their way in when they have no right to be in the ground. So while others contribute to the problem the vast majority of the blame has to fall on those fans who are trying to pull a fly one.

To clarify, I had a legal ticket.

 

As per my earlier analogy, 'if no seed is put in the ground the plant can't grow'. UEFA well and truly put the seed in the ground. Hence why there was no problem in Istanbul 2 years earlier against the same team. By having too few tickets allocated to the finalists UEFA created that situation. Also at our Cardiff finals there was always thousands ticketless, but never similar problems, why not? There were some trying to blag in, granted not as many, but they were filtered out quickly and efficiently.

 

Also if security was decent ala Cardiff word would have gone back from the Olympic stadium not to bother. As it was 40 minutes from central Athens to the olympic village on the metro if the security was the promised 'ring of steel' then people would not have bothered chancing it. Instead everyone is told that it is a farce.

 

Does not excuse certain behaviour but the conditions for such potential chaos were not laid down by us. This would not happen in England or Germany in this day and age.

 

And to think the next 2 finals are in Moscow and Rome, UEFA are going to have blood on their hands very soon.

 

Its still the same argument though 'theres not enough tickets so we are allowed to try and get in anyway we can'.

 

Sorry, it doesn't wash with me. If they are x tickets then the x people who get tickets should be able to watch the game. If you haven't got a ticket then don't go to the ground.

 

There is no devine right to get in to see a football game, I'm sure that most Champions League finals could easily attract 100,000s of supporters, no stadium is big enough and therefore people will always miss out.

 

Tough shit really, watch it on the telly

[Colos Short and Curlies]

Scott that was in Bulgaria and was not really associated with football. That was a case of locals and groups of young Brits running into confrontations all week. Saw similar stuff in Faliraki in May myself. So can't really say that is a case of Liverpool fan behaviour. Which newsagent did you get banned from?! Bit harsh isn't it. Based on the evidence and police reports/investigation techniques I think they have got the wrong man. But expecting EVERYONE to sign it?!

 

Was one on London Road - opposite the old Littlewoods Direct shop. No great loss to me, there was another bigger shop less than 5 minutes away.

[Guest Tiger Tony]

There would not be as much resentment and anger if a fair share of tickets were allocated to the finalists. Correct, still would not be enough for everyone, but would minimise the problem, drop the tout prices, and make people less angry. When you see some nonce who is not even interested, well 30 000 or so nonces who aren't bothered, sucking each other off while swigging champagne almost falling asleep in the game it causes anger and resentment. Also the amount of tickets allocated meant people who had been all home games weren't guaranteed a ticket. You spend loads on travel and hotels and you accept it as tough shit because some corporate fucker walks in?! No chance. UEFA allocate tickets properly, problem solved. 28 000 tickets each, still plenty ticketless. But anyone who really wanted one would have got one. There were too many deserving people who were hijacked by UEFA in Athens, hence the problem.

[Howaythelads]

Christ this bloke is still banging on and on, writing the longest whinges since HTT's epics. 

 

By the way, your point about the Euro ban having no impact on Newcastle is frankly a very stupid one and is a quite feeble attempt to sidestep the point. Everybody realises though that you do this quite naturally because as is typical of your kind you continue to fail to take responsibility for your actions.

[Guest Tiger Tony]

Christ this bloke is still banging on and on, writing the longest whinges since HTT's epics. 

 

By the way, your point about the Euro ban having no impact on Newcastle is frankly a very stupid one and is a quite feeble attempt to sidestep the point. Everybody realises though that you do this quite naturally because as is typical of your kind you continue to fail to take responsibility for your actions.

Firstly I acknowledged, in a further post, the point about Newcastle and the Euro ban was missing the point so to speak.

 

Take responsibility? We do to a certain extent, but the assertions we are 100% to blame are pure fantasy. If you think I am not willing to accept a share of the blame I suggest you re read my posts.

[Howaythelads]

Christ this bloke is still banging on and on, writing the longest whinges since HTT's epics. 

 

By the way, your point about the Euro ban having no impact on Newcastle is frankly a very stupid one and is a quite feeble attempt to sidestep the point. Everybody realises though that you do this quite naturally because as is typical of your kind you continue to fail to take responsibility for your actions.

Firstly I acknowledged, in a further post, the point about Newcastle and the Euro ban was missing the point so to speak.

 

Take responsibility? We do to a certain extent, but the assertions we are 100% to blame are pure fantasy. If you think I am not willing to accept a share of the blame I suggest you re read my posts.

 

With regard to responsibility and Hillsborough....You must have missed where I clearly stated there were errors made by the Police.

 

When it comes to Heysel as far as I'm concerned it's 100% down to Liverpool supporters.

 

Despite these events (and others) here you are continuing to go to matches without tickets and believing it's ok to try to "blag your way into the ground." That's a crap attitude mate, and is one that seems common among supporters of Liverpool. It can only lead to future problems.

If you don't have a ticket don't go to the match.

[Guest Tiger Tony]

Heysel. 2 gangs A and B are in a club. Gang A, unprovoked, attacks gang B with rocks, missiles and flares and drag a young member of gang B away for a beating. Gang B retaliate and go to attack Gang A. Gang A run up the stairs. The stairs collapse, some Gang A members die and that is all Gang B's fault?! Ok!

 

You have obviously spoke to more people who were actually at Heysel than I have? Highly doubt it. Do you work for UEFA or something, 100% Liverpool's fault?! Get off it! Were none of our fans meant to react when we got attacked first, unprovoked? Are UEFA's ticketing policy, and security, not partly to blame for allowing a situation where fans could get so close together? If it was the other way round would the Italian league have been banned? No chance. 

 

If you think we are the only team that tries to blag in all the time you are very much mistaken. Ask Man U fans what goes on at their games. Well supported club, demand exceeds supply, people spent hundreds of pounds, these things happen and will continue to happen until UEFA sort their ticket allocation out, especially when so many people who had been to 30+ games that season missed out on a ticket, would that not make you angry?! Until they stop the corporate hijack should loyal fans just accept that some gobshite in a suit has robbed them of their rightful space? If people miss out on a league cup final ticket there is never any real outcry, as we get 30 000, so anyone who really deserves one gets one. BUT UEFA giving us 17 000 made alot of deserving people angry! If UEFA gave us the tickets we should have got, the groups charging their way in would not have happened!

 

I reiterate it's UEFA's crap attitude of treating fans with contempt, preferring to suck off their scummy gobshite corporate noncey little cunts. Allocate the tickets better, problem solved. What I mentioned in Eindhoven was relatively minor. Athens is the only major incident of mas bunk in in recent times, brought about by UEFA robbing our tickets.

 

What has happened in the aftermath? Well Platini is pushing for reform for CL finals. 75 000 capacity minimum. Also 75% to the 2 teams. Equates to minimum 28 000 each. That has come about because of what happened here. Again, I am not justifying charging in, but UEFA created that situation. Now they have realised that this corporate hijack was the ROOT cause of this problem and needs to change. So when Newcastle get to a champions league final and you get 28 000 tickets or more and not 20 000 or less, remember what brought about a change of thinking in UEFA's policy. It was this crap attitude that has finally won, or at least started the winning run, in a long ticketing War with UEFA, putting them back in the hands of the people who should get hem first, the fans of the finalists.