An alternative way at looking at our players maybe...

[Guest alex]

Is this a wind-up?

[Guest Knightrider]

Here, at least my posts are fucking different, even if they are shite half the time.

 

*goes off to start a thread about Freddy Shepherd...

[DJ_NUFC]

Sorry HTT, but...

 

... terrible.

[Shearergol]

Here, at least my posts are fucking different, even if they are shite half the time.

 

*goes off to start a thread about Freddy Shepherd...

 

I don't think you can quite make your mind up on whether footballers should just be sent out on the pitch without coaching, or whether or not they should be picked based on how many marks they score out of a total of 40. At least be consistent

[bulivye]

found this interesting article:

 

http://www.woodysgoalkeepingschool.co.uk/StreetFootballDocument.doc

 

it's a bit of a long read, thought you might like it, coach! 

 

not a piss take 

[buzza]

good read that!! Totally a<gree with most of it.

[Sima]

Fucking hell.

[Guest Goalfather]

In youth development there is a scale of development called the 4 corners of development which some coaches, academies and clubs use to assess and guide (or get rid of) potential stars of the future and increasingly scouts are turning to this scale or variants of others like it to assess potential transfer targets. Anyway, I thought it would be interesting to apply this scale to our own players and first up I'm going to take a look at Obafemi Martins because for me he is an atypical player when it comes to general opinions and assessment. I'm going to use a scale of 1-5 with 3 being average, 4 being above average (good) and 5 being outstanding or exemplary. Obviously 1 and 2 is poor. Before I start though an elite player will tick 95% of all boxes in each category, rarely will a player tick all, those that do can claim to be one of the best players in the world or thee best and purely from an individual perspective, Christiano Ronaldo ticks them ALL.

 

Oba Martins

 

1. Technical

 

Technique range - 4

 

Awareness - 3 (more about the awareness of the self and others)

 

Core skills - 3 (don't confuse this with being able to do a step-over, skills are how one uses what one knows and can do in a match, all players can do step-overs or ball juggling believe it or not but can they do it in a match?)

 

Creativity - 3 (this isn't threading a ball through or lobbing the 'keeper, that is skill and technique, this is about thinking differently, i.e. instead of down the line or do the obvious, you decide to switch the ball to the other flank instead to stretch the opposition. Creativity and being able to execute (skill and technique) are different things. You will laugh but Nicky Butt is creative, he just lacks the skills and technique for many of his ideas to come off, hence why a lot of his ambitious balls go out of play or back to the opposition. This is where control (mental) comes in, those with good levels wouldn't even try such things even if they dream them up. The uncreative player would be someone who plays it safe all the time, does things the why he's been coached, told and instructed to do without flinching. Such players can't think for themselves, they need to be instructed.)

 

Un-predictability - 4 (don't misinterpret this as blowing hot and cold, this is about not being a one trick pony and is more about the ability to use any number of core skills in a competitive environment)

 

2. Tactical

 

Positional sense - 2

 

Direction - 2

 

Awareness of space - 2

 

Decision making in games - 2

 

Movement - 2

 

Formational sense - 3

 

3. Psychological

 

Confidence - 4

 

Concentration - 3

 

Control (mental) - 3

 

Commitment - 4

 

Communication - 2

 

4. Physical

 

Physical maturity - 4

 

Speed and reaction - 3 (not to be confused with outright pace)

 

Power/explosion - 5

 

Agility - 5

 

Endurance - 4

 

Speed endurance - 4

 

Strength - 5

 

For me Martins is an average footballer technically and tactically but an exceedingly good athlete and psychologically strong which are 2 corners of development which have taken him to the point he is at now in his career. The team doesn't benefit from these 2 corners as the team isn't geared towards his strengths where as Martins' technical and tactical weaknesses make it hard for him to bend the team to his strengths. In short he will only ever be an inconsistent performer here at Newcastle which can be covered in a good enough team playing to his strengths but for a team to truly succeed it needs 7-8 consistent high performers, even if they are not all individually good as players. Everton are a classic example of a team with 7 or 8 consistent high performers for example.

 

Can Martins' technical areas be developed further? Not by any significant margin no as his core skills, awareness and creativity are average to poor. Can Martins improve tactically? Yes, positional sense, formational sense, directness and awareness of space can all be improved. However his decision making and movement are at the limit of what he can and can't do and will always hinder any improvements in the other tactical areas. I'm saying you can improve his knowledge of say what to do, but you can't improve his ability to transfer that knowledge into practice a great deal which is down to how to do it, when to do it and when not to do it and when to do it not once, but hundreds of times. For example, when a player is on the right flank in space looking to play it into the box, it's common practice to make your run towards the far post, to step off the markers and back towards the penalty spot or to peel away to the back post. And this is just three general rules of practice. You can drum that type of knowledge into a player but if his decision making is poor what can you do? If that player is never in the position due to poor movement to select one of those options, again what can you do? Not a lot. That's what we have with Martins. He could actually be a technically poor player but tactically above average and we would get far more out of him than we do or will, especially as he's so strong physically and psychologically.

 

Anyway, the above scale will hopefully show that it isn't just about putting good players together to create a good team, it's so much more complicated than that. This is why no team full of elite players in every position who tick 95% of all boxes will ever be a consistent success. If you had 11 players all with a creative eye and ability to pull off whatever they dream up for example, who is going to do exactly what the brains of the operation, the manager, instructs? I.e. to get rid when necessary instead of playing it about. Replace Carragher with Gallas at Liverpool and they would concede more. The key is to pair them together. To blend a mix.

 

You don't need me to say this but our team is a mess using the above scale and despite us having good players, good enough for this division, collectively they are the wrong mix and psychologically, weak as piss. Hence why we are where we are. Only individualism will see us stay up and in Martins, he might just be the one ironically.

 

 

How woul u reassess these players now that we have apparently turned the corner

[Shak]

I wonder if there's a guy on the Barcelona forums who thinks Etoo' isn't good enough due to the fact that he's not the best technically.

 

Not saying Martins is as good as Etoo' btw, just that you don't necessarily need a great first touch and understanding of the game to be a very effective player at the very top level.

[Guest LucaAltieri]

I wonder if there's a guy on the Barcelona forums who thinks Etoo' isn't good enough due to the fact that he's not the best technically.

 

Not saying Martins is as good as Etoo' btw, just that you don't necessarily need a great first touch and understanding of the game to be a very effective player at the very top level.

 

Not to mention all of these attributes may well be influenced by outside factors. The team you play in, the climate, your mood, the type of team you're playing against. Certain aspects of your game will improve over time. You might just wake up one day and have a shocker.

 

Assigning any meaningful values is difficult.

[Guest alijmitchell]

In youth development there is a scale of development called the 4 corners of development which some coaches, academies and clubs use to assess and guide (or get rid of) potential stars of the future and increasingly scouts are turning to this scale or variants of others like it to assess potential transfer targets. Anyway, I thought it would be interesting to apply this scale to our own players and first up I'm going to take a look at Obafemi Martins because for me he is an atypical player when it comes to general opinions and assessment. I'm going to use a scale of 1-5 with 3 being average, 4 being above average (good) and 5 being outstanding or exemplary. Obviously 1 and 2 is poor. Before I start though an elite player will tick 95% of all boxes in each category, rarely will a player tick all, those that do can claim to be one of the best players in the world or thee best and purely from an individual perspective, Christiano Ronaldo ticks them ALL.

 

Oba Martins

 

1. Technical

 

Technique range - 4

 

Awareness - 3 (more about the awareness of the self and others)

 

Core skills - 3 (don't confuse this with being able to do a step-over, skills are how one uses what one knows and can do in a match, all players can do step-overs or ball juggling believe it or not but can they do it in a match?)

 

Creativity - 3 (this isn't threading a ball through or lobbing the 'keeper, that is skill and technique, this is about thinking differently, i.e. instead of down the line or do the obvious, you decide to switch the ball to the other flank instead to stretch the opposition. Creativity and being able to execute (skill and technique) are different things. You will laugh but Nicky Butt is creative, he just lacks the skills and technique for many of his ideas to come off, hence why a lot of his ambitious balls go out of play or back to the opposition. This is where control (mental) comes in, those with good levels wouldn't even try such things even if they dream them up. The uncreative player would be someone who plays it safe all the time, does things the why he's been coached, told and instructed to do without flinching. Such players can't think for themselves, they need to be instructed.)

 

Un-predictability - 4 (don't misinterpret this as blowing hot and cold, this is about not being a one trick pony and is more about the ability to use any number of core skills in a competitive environment)

 

2. Tactical

 

Positional sense - 2

 

Direction - 2

 

Awareness of space - 2

 

Decision making in games - 2

 

Movement - 2

 

Formational sense - 3

 

3. Psychological

 

Confidence - 4

 

Concentration - 3

 

Control (mental) - 3

 

Commitment - 4

 

Communication - 2

 

4. Physical

 

Physical maturity - 4

 

Speed and reaction - 3 (not to be confused with outright pace)

 

Power/explosion - 5

 

Agility - 5

 

Endurance - 4

 

Speed endurance - 4

 

Strength - 5

 

For me Martins is an average footballer technically and tactically but an exceedingly good athlete and psychologically strong which are 2 corners of development which have taken him to the point he is at now in his career. The team doesn't benefit from these 2 corners as the team isn't geared towards his strengths where as Martins' technical and tactical weaknesses make it hard for him to bend the team to his strengths. In short he will only ever be an inconsistent performer here at Newcastle which can be covered in a good enough team playing to his strengths but for a team to truly succeed it needs 7-8 consistent high performers, even if they are not all individually good as players. Everton are a classic example of a team with 7 or 8 consistent high performers for example.

 

Can Martins' technical areas be developed further? Not by any significant margin no as his core skills, awareness and creativity are average to poor. Can Martins improve tactically? Yes, positional sense, formational sense, directness and awareness of space can all be improved. However his decision making and movement are at the limit of what he can and can't do and will always hinder any improvements in the other tactical areas. I'm saying you can improve his knowledge of say what to do, but you can't improve his ability to transfer that knowledge into practice a great deal which is down to how to do it, when to do it and when not to do it and when to do it not once, but hundreds of times. For example, when a player is on the right flank in space looking to play it into the box, it's common practice to make your run towards the far post, to step off the markers and back towards the penalty spot or to peel away to the back post. And this is just three general rules of practice. You can drum that type of knowledge into a player but if his decision making is poor what can you do? If that player is never in the position due to poor movement to select one of those options, again what can you do? Not a lot. That's what we have with Martins. He could actually be a technically poor player but tactically above average and we would get far more out of him than we do or will, especially as he's so strong physically and psychologically.

 

Anyway, the above scale will hopefully show that it isn't just about putting good players together to create a good team, it's so much more complicated than that. This is why no team full of elite players in every position who tick 95% of all boxes will ever be a consistent success. If you had 11 players all with a creative eye and ability to pull off whatever they dream up for example, who is going to do exactly what the brains of the operation, the manager, instructs? I.e. to get rid when necessary instead of playing it about. Replace Carragher with Gallas at Liverpool and they would concede more. The key is to pair them together. To blend a mix.

 

You don't need me to say this but our team is a mess using the above scale and despite us having good players, good enough for this division, collectively they are the wrong mix and psychologically, weak as piss. Hence why we are where we are. Only individualism will see us stay up and in Martins, he might just be the one ironically.

 

 

How woul u reassess these players now that we have apparently turned the corner

 

Just a question, but is there any empirical evidence out there that gives a good assessment of whether that scale is actually a useful predictive tool?

[Gallowgate Toon]

Personally thought that Martins displayed great technical ability today, first touch looked pretty good imo.