Sam Allardyce - ‘It was like trying to build Empire State in a month’

[Guest Knightrider]

 

He's responsible for the performances of individuals? Like I said, when a player fails to make even a simple 5 yard pass, they are to blame, not the bloke sitting in the dugout.

 

If Allardyce sends players out to play in a way which isn't natural to them then yes, he's responsible for individual performances.  We were doing OK when we were trying to win games then he changed his plan away from home and the players couldn't adjust from game to game.

 

Mick, that doesn't excuse the fact that experienced well paid professionals were missing the target with 5 yard passes does it? He's responsible for preparing the players but how they perform as individuals is mainly down to them. I agree we were doing OK until he changed things btw but that's his right, he's the manager. I was prepared to allow him to do that, in the hope one day, he'd get it right. Others obviously weren't. Oh well, at least we're better off now eh.

[Mick]

i can't disagree too much with that allardyce says. the sacking was in many ways a poor decision and i think given time he would've turned us into a top 8 side. but given the dire football we'd have to suffer i'm not sure it would've been worth it.

 

however the decision wasn't made because of fan opposition or because we were so awful, it was made cos ashley and mort wanted their own man and with the money spent to acquire the club that is their call to make.

 

i don't think we'd be so low in the table had he still been here, not to say he'd have got us in the top half either. we'd probably have 2 to 4 points more which in our predicament would help a lot.

 

allardyce was too constrained by his philosophy and i think for his sake he needs to get over the science waffle. every top-level manager in the world uses scientific fitness, training and analysis nowadays, but they recognise that they aren't ends in themselves but little things to help you alon. when you make a whole cult around that aspect of the game the other parts of it will inevitably suffer. i think he is correct when he says he tried to do too much too quickly so perhaps he recognises it a bit now. but the comment about players looking at their pro-zone stats illuminates the point, that is laughable.

 

Based on what?

[Guest Knightrider]

i can't disagree too much with that allardyce says. the sacking was in many ways a poor decision and i think given time he would've turned us into a top 8 side. but given the dire football we'd have to suffer i'm not sure it would've been worth it.

 

however the decision wasn't made because of fan opposition or because we were so awful, it was made cos ashley and mort wanted their own man and with the money spent to acquire the club that is their call to make.

 

i don't think we'd be so low in the table had he still been here, not to say he'd have got us in the top half either. we'd probably have 2 to 4 points more which in our predicament would help a lot.

 

allardyce was too constrained by his philosophy and i think for his sake he needs to get over the science waffle. every top-level manager in the world uses scientific fitness, training and analysis nowadays, but they recognise that they aren't ends in themselves but little things to help you alon. when you make a whole cult around that aspect of the game the other parts of it will inevitably suffer. i think he is correct when he says he tried to do too much too quickly so perhaps he recognises it a bit now. but the comment about players looking at their pro-zone stats illuminates the point, that is laughable.

 

Based on what?

 

Based on the same thing everyone who claims we would be - conjecture?

[Guest alex]

 

He's responsible for the performances of individuals? Like I said, when a player fails to make even a simple 5 yard pass, they are to blame, not the bloke sitting in the dugout.

 

If Allardyce sends players out to play in a way which isn't natural to them then yes, he's responsible for individual performances.  We were doing OK when we were trying to win games then he changed his plan away from home and the players couldn't adjust from game to game.

 

Mick, that doesn't excuse the fact that experienced well paid professionals were missing the target with 5 yard passes does it? He's responsible for preparing the players but how they perform as individuals is mainly down to them. I agree we were doing OK until he changed things btw but that's his right, he's the manager. I was prepared to allow him to do that, in the hope one day, he'd get it right. Others obviously weren't. Oh well, at least we're better off now eh.

When his signings are probably the worst culprits - Smith and Barton, for example, it shifts some of the blame back on to him. I know what you're saying though and it has some merit.

[Guest Knightrider]

Happy Face has been spot on from the off about Allardyce imo. He's a hack/fraud/whatever you want to call it who hides behind his 'scientific' coaching methods.

 

I don't think he's a fraud. I just think he failed to successfully apply all his methods in 21 games!

 

21 games man

 

Not laughing at you Alex, just the whole sorry state of affairs.

[Mick]

 

Mick, that doesn't excuse the fact that experienced well paid professionals were missing the target with 5 yard passes does it? He's responsible for preparing the players but how they perform as individuals is mainly down to them. I agree we were doing OK until he changed things btw but that's his right, he's the manager. I was prepared to allow him to do that, in the hope one day, he'd get it right. Others obviously weren't. Oh well, at least we're better off now eh.

 

We don't have many good players, they're not good enough in the main and we made them worse by constantly changing the way we tried to play.

 

It is the managers right to do what he wants, he paid the price for doing it though, he gambled and lost.

 

I think we are better off, at least I think we'll move forwards once we get this season out of the way, a season that Allardyce played a major part in screwing up.

[Mick]

 

Based on the same thing everyone who claims we would be - conjecture?

 

Ok, so it's baseless.

[Guest Knightrider]

 

He's responsible for the performances of individuals? Like I said, when a player fails to make even a simple 5 yard pass, they are to blame, not the bloke sitting in the dugout.

 

If Allardyce sends players out to play in a way which isn't natural to them then yes, he's responsible for individual performances.  We were doing OK when we were trying to win games then he changed his plan away from home and the players couldn't adjust from game to game.

 

Mick, that doesn't excuse the fact that experienced well paid professionals were missing the target with 5 yard passes does it? He's responsible for preparing the players but how they perform as individuals is mainly down to them. I agree we were doing OK until he changed things btw but that's his right, he's the manager. I was prepared to allow him to do that, in the hope one day, he'd get it right. Others obviously weren't. Oh well, at least we're better off now eh.

When his signings are probably the worst culprits - Smith and Barton, for example, it shifts some of the blame back on to him. I know what you're saying though and it has some merit.

 

Aye, those two in particular have been shocking for us. In Big Sam's defence though, Barton had rarely played or couldn't have been fully fit when he did and thus firing on all cylinders. I actually think Barton is a better footballer than what we've seen of him, his two passes against Blackburn for example may point to that, but if pressed, I'd say he'll not succeed here and needs shipped out too as he's a plodder in there, even if he may have the brains or creativity.

[Guest alex]

Happy Face has been spot on from the off about Allardyce imo. He's a hack/fraud/whatever you want to call it who hides behind his 'scientific' coaching methods.

 

I don't think he's a fraud. I just think he failed to successfully apply all his methods in 21 games!

 

21 games man

 

Not laughing at you Alex, just the whole sorry state of affairs.

He didn't get long enough here to implement any of his methods etc. It's more of a general comment I think and one I agree with. Looking back though, I wish he'd gone earlier, I really do. He was never going to do it here imo, and for a variety of reasons. Not least due to not being the owner's man.

[Mick]

 

I don't think he's a fraud. I just think he failed to successfully apply all his methods in 21 games!

 

21 games man

 

Not laughing at you Alex, just the whole sorry state of affairs.

 

The decisions made by Allardyce were to the detriment of our game, he had a negative effect.

[Guest alex]

 

Based on the same thing everyone who claims we would be - conjecture?

 

Ok, so it's baseless.

Well, it's as baseless as suggesting we'd be as bad off or worse off. Personally I think we'd be in the same boat. I think it's a bit moot anyway since the games that were coming up would have seen Allardyce get the sack sooner rather than later imo.

[Guest Knightrider]

 

Mick, that doesn't excuse the fact that experienced well paid professionals were missing the target with 5 yard passes does it? He's responsible for preparing the players but how they perform as individuals is mainly down to them. I agree we were doing OK until he changed things btw but that's his right, he's the manager. I was prepared to allow him to do that, in the hope one day, he'd get it right. Others obviously weren't. Oh well, at least we're better off now eh.

 

We don't have many good players, they're not good enough in the main and we made them worse by constantly changing the way we tried to play.

 

It is the managers right to do what he wants, he paid the price for doing it though, he gambled and lost.

 

I think we are better off, at least I think we'll move forwards once we get this season out of the way, a season that Allardyce played a major part in screwing up.

 

I think KK will take us to where Big Sam would have taken us eventually - back into the top 6 - had he been giving the time and resources to shape his own team fully, but in a different way, a more pleasing on the eye one for those concerned about aesthetics for one. He'll require more money than Big Sam would have needed though and off the pitch, I think we'll still lag behind in key areas of modern day football.

[The College Dropout]

 

I only care about winning first and foremost. It was a shocking performance I know but I don't put much into performances until they either become consistent or inconsistent in regards to forming a jury as a lot of people did based on those "crimes" Under Big Sam we played well at times, rotten at other times, never anything special though. If after 3 years we were still going to places like Fulham playing that way and getting nowt back, then I'd use that to vilify him. A cross section of 21 games though can be interpreted a number of ways. All I know is that in those 21 games we were not on a massive slide and nor where we on a massive surge forward, we were what we were, exceedingly average. We are exceedingly shocking now and on a massive slide downwards. Was Big Sam at fault for that? Well he was manager so he's played a part, but I don't think he can personally be charged with that in the same way that Keegan can't either. The players are mostly to blame and the ones responsible in truth. No-one can tell me Big Sam sent them out away to Fulham to f*** up simple things like passing 5 yards or when we played Liverpool at home, to give up, or to let Pompey score a few times in the opening periods of the match. They are to blame. Worryingly they are who we turn to get us out of it...

 

Allardyce sent the team out against Fulham to not lose, he did the same against Derby, Reading and Wigan to name another 3, he's responsible for how we played as much if not more than the players.

 

He's responsible for the performances of individuals? Like I said, when a player fails to make even a simple 5 yard pass, they are to blame, not the bloke sitting in the dugout.

 

When you sign and continue to play a footballer who cannot make a simple 5 yard pass then the bloke sitting in the dug out is to blame.

[Mick]

Well, it's as baseless as suggesting we'd be as bad off or worse off. Personally I think we'd be in the same boat. I think it's a bit moot anyway since the games that were coming up would have seen Allardyce get the sack sooner rather than later imo.

 

I don't agree that it's as baseless to think we'd be as bad or worse off, nothing was changing for the better and we were already in a run of defeats against lower placed teams with a touch run coming up and players going off to Africa.

[Guest Knightrider]

 

Based on the same thing everyone who claims we would be - conjecture?

 

Ok, so it's baseless.

Well, it's as baseless as suggesting we'd be as bad off or worse off. Personally I think we'd be in the same boat. I think it's a bit moot anyway since the games that were coming up would have seen Allardyce get the sack sooner rather than later imo.

 

Exactly. I agree with the sacking comments too. The worst thing to happen for Big Sam was a change in ownership. Hopefully it won't turn out to be quite as bad for us. For the team and the remainder of the season, the worst thing to happen to it is a change in manager. We wouldn't have went up or down under Big Sam. The new board need to learn from this and make sure they take care of things more professionally the next time a sticky patch turns up. Like now for example. Rumours of KK getting a few games or being moved on in the summer better not be true otherwise it's back to square one, again. I'm hopeful that won't be the case though.

[Dave]

Signing Barton given his off-field problems (not to mention the ridiculous 'loyalty' payment we had to stump up) was a big gamble by Allardyce and one that would have required some convincing on his part to the board IMO. He wasn't cheap. My guess is he persuaded them he could turn Barton around, and within months it'd gone horribly, horribly wrong. I can't see the board looking on that particular transfer favourably when considering whether to give him more money to spend.

[Guest Knightrider]

 

I only care about winning first and foremost. It was a shocking performance I know but I don't put much into performances until they either become consistent or inconsistent in regards to forming a jury as a lot of people did based on those "crimes" Under Big Sam we played well at times, rotten at other times, never anything special though. If after 3 years we were still going to places like Fulham playing that way and getting nowt back, then I'd use that to vilify him. A cross section of 21 games though can be interpreted a number of ways. All I know is that in those 21 games we were not on a massive slide and nor where we on a massive surge forward, we were what we were, exceedingly average. We are exceedingly shocking now and on a massive slide downwards. Was Big Sam at fault for that? Well he was manager so he's played a part, but I don't think he can personally be charged with that in the same way that Keegan can't either. The players are mostly to blame and the ones responsible in truth. No-one can tell me Big Sam sent them out away to Fulham to f*** up simple things like passing 5 yards or when we played Liverpool at home, to give up, or to let Pompey score a few times in the opening periods of the match. They are to blame. Worryingly they are who we turn to get us out of it...

 

Allardyce sent the team out against Fulham to not lose, he did the same against Derby, Reading and Wigan to name another 3, he's responsible for how we played as much if not more than the players.

 

He's responsible for the performances of individuals? Like I said, when a player fails to make even a simple 5 yard pass, they are to blame, not the bloke sitting in the dugout.

 

When you sign and continue to play a footballer who cannot make a simple 5 yard pass then the bloke sitting in the dug out is to blame.

 

And the alternative is what, play the player on the bench who can't make a simple 5 yard pass?

[Guest alex]

Well, it's as baseless as suggesting we'd be as bad off or worse off. Personally I think we'd be in the same boat. I think it's a bit moot anyway since the games that were coming up would have seen Allardyce get the sack sooner rather than later imo.

 

I don't agree that it's as baseless to think we'd be as bad or worse off, nothing was changing for the better and we were already in a run of defeats against lower placed teams with a touch run coming up and players going off to Africa.

Aye, that's your opinion though. We also aquired many more points under Allardyce. I tend to agree with you but there's no real proof either way, is all I meant.

[Mick]

 

I think KK will take us to where Big Sam would have taken us eventually - back into the top 6 - had he been giving the time and resources to shape his own team fully, but in a different way, a more pleasing on the eye one for those concerned about aesthetics for one. He'll require more money than Big Sam would have needed though and off the pitch, I think we'll still lag behind in key areas of modern day football.

 

"Keegan will require more money than Big Sam," I doubt it, Allardyce brought some shit here.  

[Guest Knightrider]

Signing Barton given his off-field problems (not to mention the ridiculous 'loyalty' payment we had to stump up) was a big gamble by Allardyce and one that would have required some convincing on his part to the board IMO. He wasn't cheap. My guess is he persuaded them he could turn Barton around, and within months it'd gone horribly, horribly wrong. I can't see the board looking on that transfer favourably when considering whether to give him more money to spend.

 

Good shout and I think Barton's transfer and what happened after that set alarm bells ringing in the board's head where Big Sam and money was concerned. I actually think the manner in which he was sacked and the timing of it leads me to believe it was down to a back me or sack me challenge from the manager who obviously wanted more money in January and to be able to sign more new players, which I don't think the board were quite prepared to sanction, not with good money anyway. If that is what happened, I'd feel more easy about that chapter as it would absolve the new guys of fucking it up which on paper is what appears to have happened. Sacked for no real reason, no-one lined up to replace him. If it was forced then that may explain why. I'm still not sure about our interest in Redknapp either. There have been a lot of rumours like so it's hard to judge.

[Mick]

Aye, that's your opinion though. We also aquired many more points under Allardyce. I tend to agree with you but there's no real proof either way, is all I meant.

 

It is only my opinion but it's based on what was happening, not what could have happened.  Obviously things could have changed for the better, I didn't see a single sign of things turning around for the better, if anything, things were getting worse and we had a set of circumstances which were going to make things tougher, if anything.

 

I know Roeder had his better results when he was forced to play a team and that could have happened for Allardyce, I doubt it though.

[Guest Knightrider]

 

I think KK will take us to where Big Sam would have taken us eventually - back into the top 6 - had he been giving the time and resources to shape his own team fully, but in a different way, a more pleasing on the eye one for those concerned about aesthetics for one. He'll require more money than Big Sam would have needed though and off the pitch, I think we'll still lag behind in key areas of modern day football.

 

"Keegan will require more money than Big Sam," I doubt it, Allardyce brought some shit here. 

 

He did, but when you factor in expectations under Keegan from the fans and of course, the man's own ambitions and type of players he will want on board, I just think it will require more funding. KK will want top players here, players that have ability and they tend to cost more, he'll also want to challenge the top 6 and with it the top 4 ideally, where as Big Sam would have settled for gradual improvements, i.e. top 10, top 6, then maybe top 4. KK will want to take a short cut and so might Ashley too. As fans we all would as I don't think even KK will get the slack required for a gradual rebuild. This is why in the summer he will need big money and if it doesn't come, we may as well get rid of KK and look for a manager who can build us up the gradual one step at a time way which I don't think KK is capable of. It's almost all or nothing with KK.

[Zero]

I do think it's a problematic argument that if Keegan is the one who employed last summer we would be in a better position.

 

As the fans doesn't like Sam's football style, it's definitely ok to bash him off by picking out his negatives, but at the end of the day it's ultimately Ashley's fault for the mess. Please don't suggest that he shouldn't be blamed because he has cleared our debt, that's irrelevant. No matter how much you disliked Allardyce, you must agree that he is not brought in as an immediate wonder maker, and he has also declared that he needs at least 3 years to turn the club around. He is in fact a long term solution and his main responsibilities for these few seasons is to restructure the club, like investing in youth players, inserting new medical staff, etc. Yes the pro-zone stuff makes him looks stubborn but overall he is really improving the club as a whole, in terms of hardware I would say.

And, what Ashley think is "Why not just give him a try? It doesn't hurt and if things doesn't look good then fire him".

Tell me what the fxxk is this logic for temporarily keep a manager who can only success in long term.

[Guest alex]

Aye, that's your opinion though. We also aquired many more points under Allardyce. I tend to agree with you but there's no real proof either way, is all I meant.

 

It is only my opinion but it's based on what was happening, not what could have happened.  Obviously things could have changed for the better, I didn't see a single sign of things turning around for the better, if anything, things were getting worse and we had a set of circumstances which were going to make things tougher, if anything.

 

I know Roeder had his better results when he was forced to play a team and that could have happened for Allardyce, I doubt it though.

Like I said, I tend to agree with you. You can make a case for things not being as bad too though. It would be interesting to know what would have happened under a full season under Allardyce.

[Guest Knightrider]

Aye, that's your opinion though. We also aquired many more points under Allardyce. I tend to agree with you but there's no real proof either way, is all I meant.

 

It is only my opinion but it's based on what was happening, not what could have happened.  Obviously things could have changed for the better, I didn't see a single sign of things turning around for the better, if anything, things were getting worse and we had a set of circumstances which were going to make things tougher, if anything.

 

I know Roeder had his better results when he was forced to play a team and that could have happened for Allardyce, I doubt it though.

 

How you base your opinion and what on doesn't necessarily make it more valid than anyone else though which is the impression a lot of people who claim we'd be worse off or the same had we stuck with Big Sam give off when replying to those who think oppositely. Truth told, no-one knows and therefore has no upper hand or right of way in that particular debate.