The back four today

[Guest toonlass]

TBF I think we need to have some consistancy throughout the team, not just in defence. Keep the same team going for as long as we are picking up points.

 

I agree 100%.

 

Same formation too.

 

The only change I could see is Milner in for Geremi.

 

(anyone know when Milner is back?)

 

Nooo, we need to go back to 442 against Spurs or we will be bummed to high heaven, they play down the channels and the fullbacks will be horribly exposed.

 

Oh ok, lets go back to the team and formation that wasn't working and leaked goals left right and centre. While we're at it lets bring Smith in for either Oba or Viduka!!!

 

Christ.

 

I think we should keep the 3 who were in midfield and have N'Zogbia on the left to provide cover for Enrique otherwise he'll have two players to deal with most of the time. We've played two s*** teams and done reasonably well with this formation, that doesn't warrant it being cast in stone as our best formation. Playing away against a better team you need to think about the opposition first and 442 is the way we should go imo.

 

Geremi-Butt-Barton-Zog

 

Zog can push on when we have the ball.

 

Wasn't 4-4-2 exactly our problem?

 

I can see where you are coming from, however I can see what Keegan is trying to do with the team at the moment. Without the ball Owen is dropping back, Geremi has beye helping out with the wide players, butt is playing a "sweeper" esque midfield role, closing down those with the ball. Barton is helping out Enrique. Even martins can come back to help in the midfield.

 

I can't see why we would go back to 4-4-2, eliminating our threat we have been generated going forward, and having to drop one of our three effective strikers.

 

From looking at Keegans comments OWen is here to stay in this AM/ST role. Therefore I predict the 4-3-3- is here to stay too.

 

 

 

 

[Baggio]

How many times do people have to watch us get beat to realise we don't have enough pace throughout the side for Owen and Viduka to work in a 4-4-2?

 

 

[Guest toonlass]

How many times do people have to watch us get beat to realise we don't have enough pace throughout the side for Owen and Viduka to work in a 4-4-2?

 

 

 

Again 

[ElDiablo]

Maybe it is, just think Spurs will get down the flanks far too easy.

[Baggio]

I can't see Keegan sticking with this back four, I can see him bringing in 2 or 3 new defenders in the Summer.

 

I think that is a given, as we know he wanted to bring in Woodgate.

 

 

I reckon he'll fetch in 2 new fullbacks too.

[ElDiablo]

How many times do people have to watch us get beat to realise we don't have enough pace throughout the side for Owen and Viduka to work in a 4-4-2?

 

Oh what and Martins solves that does he?

[Guest toonlass]

How many times do people have to watch us get beat to realise we don't have enough pace throughout the side for Owen and Viduka to work in a 4-4-2?

 

Oh what and Martins solves that does he?

 

Considerably quicker than the other two

[Dave]

The other obvious thing about the current line-up and formation, is that for probably the first time this season, we're giving the opposition something to think about instead of just shitting ourselves at what they can do. Clichéd it may be, but I think Keegan is really going for the 'attack is the best form of defence' mantra with these players.

[NE5]

Beye-Faye-Taylor-Enrique have got a couple of games together now under Keegan, something that never happend under Allardyce, due to injuries, but also due to his lack of patience with the central pair and his decision to always play N'Zogbia at left-back. Not that these guys were tested today, but they have looked far more comfortable and solid against Birmingham and Fulham than any of the defensive lines that Allardyce tried during his reign.

 

This is not me saying we don't need new defenders in the summer, but I think Keegan deserves credit for sticking to them despite the game at Liverpool and we conceded loads against Man Utd. Would have been easy for him to drop Taylor for Cacapa, or move N'Zogbia back into Enriques position.

 

 

I think the constant changing of the back four by Allardyce is more a sign of "tactical ineptness" to be honest ie trying to be clever. Anybody will tell you - or should know - that a settled back 4 who develop an understanding is the most valuable thing.

 

Can't stand these "football tinkerers" to be honest. Another example of how he lost the plot and its not what he seemed to do at Bolton, which is strange when you consider that he is the man who brought in Rozenhal and Cacapa, who can both be shown the door in the summer for me.

 

On the other hand. He brought in Beye and Faye, so he did something right.

 

Man for man, I like the current back 4. With Edgar standing by, its not a priority.

 

 

 

Good post, agree with that. Allardyce (and others such as Benitez) just try and be too clever for their own good IMO, changing things all the time.

 

Also agree on the current back four. Taylor's not had a great time this season, and opinions are very split on him, but for the rest of the season at least I'd stick with what we have now.

 

aye, he'll always be on the lookout for better players he'd be failing in his responsibility if he didn't, but for me other areas are more important. He may even look for a new goalkeeper. He was never happy with Pav, and I don't see him being totally happy with Given and Harper not being the commanding sort of goalkeepers.

 

I think people are being harsh on Taylor, its been a difficult season for everybody.

 

 

[ElDiablo]

How many times do people have to watch us get beat to realise we don't have enough pace throughout the side for Owen and Viduka to work in a 4-4-2?

 

Oh what and Martins solves that does he?

 

Considerably quicker than the other two

 

Shame he doesn't apply it though eh?

[Thorpinho]

It will be interesting to compare the posts in here about the defence with the ones post spurs if we concede a few goals and say for example Enrique gets destroyed by Lennon.

[Dave]

It will be interesting to compare the posts in here about the defence with the ones post spurs if we concede a few goals and say for example Enrique gets destroyed by Lennon.

 

Fair comment.

[Baggio]

Maybe it is, just think Spurs will get down the flanks far too easy.

 

They probably will, the alternative is to go 4-4-2 and have a team with no pace on the counter attack with Owen coming deep looking for the ball, leaving Viduka putting his zero mobility to good use up front isolated on his own.

 

If we want to get anything out of the game then we need to have a go at them, we know they've shipped goals this season.

[Guest toonlass]

How many times do people have to watch us get beat to realise we don't have enough pace throughout the side for Owen and Viduka to work in a 4-4-2?

 

Oh what and Martins solves that does he?

 

Considerably quicker than the other two

 

Shame he doesn't apply it though eh?

 

Are you still stuck in the Allardyce mentality? Happy to settle for a game where we are on the backfoot for the entire 90 in the vain hope that we might just get a nil-nil? Keegan obviously wants more than just a crap no score draw. He believes that we can win games, and is trying to get that through to our players.

[NE5]

It will be interesting to compare the posts in here about the defence with the ones post spurs if we concede a few goals and say for example Enrique gets destroyed by Lennon.

 

Fair comment.

 

I would prefer Enrique to be a bit quicker maybe, but otherwise I think the "defensive" aspect starts further up the field. Man for man, those 4 players are a lot better than the ones we had under Bobby Robson that qualified for the Champs League and europe, apart from Bernard who was the best player at the time, and Distin who was only on loan in the first qualification season.

 

It is likely Spurs may get a few goals, but it is also possible that if we take the game to them and play well on the day we will get a few goals especially if they themselves play their all out attacking game,

At the end of the day, we just need 4 or 5 points to stay up and it doesn't really matter where we get them. The home games against Reading and the mackems look the best bet, but does anybody think we are going to lose all of our last 4 away games ?

 

 

[ElDiablo]

How many times do people have to watch us get beat to realise we don't have enough pace throughout the side for Owen and Viduka to work in a 4-4-2?

 

Oh what and Martins solves that does he?

 

Considerably quicker than the other two

 

Shame he doesn't apply it though eh?

 

Are you still stuck in the Allardyce mentality? Happy to settle for a game where we are on the backfoot for the entire 90 in the vain hope that we might just get a nil-nil? Keegan obviously wants more than just a crap no score draw. He believes that we can win games, and is trying to get that through to our players.

 

No I just don't live in a dream world, Spurs are a good side and they'll have us pegged back for a fair amount of the game, we should be solid first. It would take one change to go to 433, we at least have the option swap.

[Guest toonlass]

How many times do people have to watch us get beat to realise we don't have enough pace throughout the side for Owen and Viduka to work in a 4-4-2?

 

Oh what and Martins solves that does he?

 

Considerably quicker than the other two

 

Shame he doesn't apply it though eh?

 

Are you still stuck in the Allardyce mentality? Happy to settle for a game where we are on the backfoot for the entire 90 in the vain hope that we might just get a nil-nil? Keegan obviously wants more than just a crap no score draw. He believes that we can win games, and is trying to get that through to our players.

 

No I just don't live in a dream world, Spurs are a good side and they'll have us pegged back for a fair amount of the game, we should be solid first. It would take one change to go to 433, we at least have the option swap.

 

Who are just two places above us in the league. We need to go out and not just soak up pressure but try to attack too. Our 442 is not able to counter attack effectively so why not just go out there and damn well attack?

[Thorpinho]

It will be interesting to compare the posts in here about the defence with the ones post spurs if we concede a few goals and say for example Enrique gets destroyed by Lennon.

 

Fair comment.

 

I would prefer Enrique to be a bit quicker maybe, but otherwise I think the "defensive" aspect starts further up the field. Man for man, those 4 players are a lot better than the ones we had under Bobby Robson that qualified for the Champs League and europe, apart from Bernard who was the best player at the time, and Distin who was only on loan in the first qualification season.

 

It is likely Spurs may get a few goals, but it is also possible that if we take the game to them and play well on the day we will get a few goals especially if they themselves play their all out attacking game,

At the end of the day, we just need 4 or 5 points to stay up and it doesn't really matter where we get them. The home games against Reading and the mackems look the best bet, but does anybody think we are going to lose all of our last 4 away games ?

 

 

 

I wasn't really meaning to make any comment on the ability or otherwise of Enrique, just that people get very carried away with a win and a clean sheet talking about consistency and stuff, which will inevitably be followed by a barrage of criticism if we ship a few against spurs.

[Baggio]

 

How many times do people have to watch us get beat to realise we don't have enough pace throughout the side for Owen and Viduka to work in a 4-4-2?

 

Oh what and Martins solves that does he?

 

Yes he does, having watched us all season I think it's pretty noticeable that we play better when he's in the team even if he does have a shit game, having pace in the side means the opposition can't play such a high line which knocks any threat that Viduka and Owen have as a partnership on the head, we've seen them together as a partnership and the pair of them don't work with the current midfield behind them, Owen drops deep looking to get involved which leaves Viduka isolated on his own up top.

 

 

[ElDiablo]

Fine but then we could well be looking at another hammering which Spurs are capable of giving us, they scored 4 against Chelsea the other week, fuck knows how many it could be if their strikers turn up.

[Guest toonlass]

It will be interesting to compare the posts in here about the defence with the ones post spurs if we concede a few goals and say for example Enrique gets destroyed by Lennon.

 

Fair comment.

 

I would prefer Enrique to be a bit quicker maybe, but otherwise I think the "defensive" aspect starts further up the field. Man for man, those 4 players are a lot better than the ones we had under Bobby Robson that qualified for the Champs League and europe, apart from Bernard who was the best player at the time, and Distin who was only on loan in the first qualification season.

 

It is likely Spurs may get a few goals, but it is also possible that if we take the game to them and play well on the day we will get a few goals especially if they themselves play their all out attacking game,

At the end of the day, we just need 4 or 5 points to stay up and it doesn't really matter where we get them. The home games against Reading and the mackems look the best bet, but does anybody think we are going to lose all of our last 4 away games ?

 

 

 

I wasn't really meaning to make any comment on the ability or otherwise of Enrique, just that people get very carried away with a win and a clean sheet talking about consistency and stuff, which will inevitably be followed by a barrage of criticism if we ship a few against spurs.

 

 

We really should be giving our lads a damn good kick in the bollox for winning 2-0 against Fulham. Would do them good. And why not tell them they are fucked from the off at White Hart Lane, would save any disappointment should we not win. In fact lets just not bother turning up at all!

[Baggio]

It is likely Spurs may get a few goals, but it is also possible that if we take the game to them and play well on the day we will get a few goals especially if they themselves play their all out attacking game,

 

This hits the nail on the head.

 

We all know Spurs are going to come at us so keeping a clean sheet is going to be hard if we sit back, try playing a tight game and letting them come at us, on the other hand as a defensive unit Spurs have let in more goals at home than Derby have at Pride Park this season, this is a game we need to be taking to them rather than shutting up shop and hoping for the best.

[ElDiablo]

 

How many times do people have to watch us get beat to realise we don't have enough pace throughout the side for Owen and Viduka to work in a 4-4-2?

 

Oh what and Martins solves that does he?

 

Yes he does, having watched us all season I think it's pretty noticeable that we play better when he's in the team even if he does have a shit game, having pace in the side means the opposition can't play such a high line which knocks any threat that Viduka and Owen have as a partnership on the head, we've seen them together as a partnership and the pair of them don't work with the current midfield behind them, Owen drops deep looking to get involved which leaves Viduka isolated on his own up top.

 

He does bring something. I'm not saying he should be dropped due to his perfomances of late but I just think we need Owen and to a lesser extent Viduka in the side more than we need Oba.

[La Parka]

Here is my interpretation of Keegans "game plan". Sorry for the drawings on paint but it helps me express my point.

 

 

Defence:

 

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/4807/defenceeh4.jpg

 

In this 4-3-3 there is a lot of responsibility on the players to track back and reduce the space. Owen, Martins and Viduka are the first line of defence, in pressing the opposition defenders they can hurry them into making long clearances. By not allowing the defenders to pick out a pass we can stifle the way in which the opposition can build their attacks. The second line of defence is the midfield. Barton Geremi and Butt play quite narrow. However, the key to this succeeding is the players realising where the threat is going to come from. If the ball is wide left for example, barton needs to pull to support Enrique, and Butt and geremi move to constrict the center of midfield. IN doubling up on the wide players, crossing can be reduced. This is very much how chelsea operate in central midfield, with the wide central midfielders looking to support the fullbacks.

 

Attack:

 

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/2844/attackgc0.jpg

 

Three key positions in our attacking play:

 

1) Fullbacks: Huge responsibility as they are our width. They seemed to so far work very closely with their respective central midfielder, looking to play one-twos and exploit space behind the opposition wingers. Once the fullback is up against their fulback the midfield player often provides an option behind them if the cross is not an option. (You can see this in action when Geremi Supports beye, often taking up a position 10 or so yards behind him).

 

2) The DM: Butt has a huge responsibility, often picking up the ball form the defence and looking to move it in four ways:

 

1) To play the ball to the wider CMs, who look to link with the fullbacks and provide attacking play

2) A long ball into the channels for Martins/OWen when looking to break.

3) A ball up to Viduka, who looks to hold it up and allow for the midfield to support the attack.

4) a simple ball to Owen to build attacking play.

 

3) Owen - The AM. Also a pivot point for attack. Keeps hold of ball, plays ball to Wide CMs, fullbacks or strikers then looks to get in the box for crosses or rebounds.

 

If we had a more mobile DM, with a larger range of passing, this tactic could be very successful. ON the whole, I feel this tactic plays to our strengths,  and generates a threat 4-4-2 with our current players cant.

 

 

[Guest toonlass]

It is likely Spurs may get a few goals, but it is also possible that if we take the game to them and play well on the day we will get a few goals especially if they themselves play their all out attacking game,

 

This hits the nail on the head.

 

We all know Spurs are going to come at us so keeping a clean sheet is going to be hard if we sit back, try playing a tight game and letting them come at us, on the other hand as a defensive unit Spurs have let in more goals at home than Derby have at Pride Park this season, this is a game we need to be taking to them rather than shutting up shop and hoping for the best.

 

Totally agree