Assuming we stay up...

[David Icke - Son of God]

Martins is NOT our best striker. We can't rely on his half a dozen stormers a season to keep us up, especially when he's just as bad as Owen on the sicknote front.

 

We've got to look at it this way - Owen is going, Viduka is going, Martins may go but he's not prolific even if he stays, Smith is a midfielder now, Carroll isn't good enough and Ameobi is....well, Ameobi.

 

The midfield and strikers could soon be a problem. For the first time in a long time our defence could be our strongest area.

[TRon]

No, this isn't much of a positive thread.

 

There are a lot of people who feel they should defend Ashley's plan/gamble based on the finances being much healthier next year should we stay up. I think they're hoping that with better finances, some wasters off the wage bill and this season out of the way, we can look to settle the club down and move forward and upwards in the league.

 

The thing that worries me should we stay up is that Ashley/Llambias will think things have worked out okay and try the same next season. Cheap manager (they already seem to have decided this), cheap players (Ameobi, Butt etc) and looking purely to keep our heads above water. The recent comments from Llambias about the squad being 'great' really concern me, because I totally disagree. Especially when you take into account the players who are definitely leaving in the summer, those who may jump ship and the calibre of manager the club are expecting to manage them effectively.

 

I'm waffling here, so I guess I'm just asking what gives people confidence that should we stay up this year things will automatically improve in the coming seasons? Am I being overly cynical here or what?

 

The squad isn't as bad as it appears though, for two years running we've been without the services of Joey Barton who is our most influential midfielder, in theory at least, and Viduka hasn't been available either. Long term injuries like these have a big impact on results and performances. We are weak in central midfield and we could do with a genuine right sided midfielder.

 

I'm not confident that this is all going to be put right next season, it seems we will be building gradually as income streams improve year on year. That's the plan, whether it works or goes belly up with relegation is still up for debate.

 

The managerial situation is what worries me. Kinnear has already brought in two players that I don't think Keegan would have looked at twice in Nolan and Taylor, although it's not fair to judge Taylor while he's being played in midfield. Hiring a cheap manager could turn out to be very expensive in the long run.

 

Great post and i like the highlighted bit, particularly. That's the irony of it all. We'll end up either having to pay him off, or paying for it via our league position - on top of whatever cash we give him to spend on his shite no-hopers.

 

As for our squad, i agree there aswell, it's not a bad squad at all. The two positions that weren't rectified in the summer remain the same, centre-midfield and full-back. We could do with a genuine right-winger aswell, like you say.

 

But... that's going on top of what we've got at the moment. Whatever departures we have to contend with... well, we'll have to cross that bridge when we come to it. But that's something else the appointment of Kinnear will cause, a big exodus of players. If Oba, Owen, Jonas, Bassong, Colo, etc, get the first sniff of a departure - they'll take it, and they'd be right to do so. And i don't trust him to bring in like-for-like quality.

 

Honestly, if we appoint Kinnear, then i've lost all hope altogether.

 

Basically, the two best managers in my time had great football philosphies and the players they bought reflected that, even those that invited national ridicule at times like Ginola, Robert and Asprilla.

[Yorkie]

Martins is NOT our best striker. We can't rely on his half a dozen stormers a season to keep us up, especially when he's just as bad as Owen on the sicknote front.

 

We've got to look at it this way - Owen is going, Viduka is going, Martins may go but he's not prolific even if he stays, Smith is a midfielder now, Carroll isn't good enough and Ameobi is....well, Ameobi.

 

The midfield and strikers could soon be a problem. For the first time in a long time our defence could be our strongest area.

 

1. That's a load of shit.

2. That's a load of absolute shit.

[Wullie]

Martins is NOT our best striker. We can't rely on his half a dozen stormers a season to keep us up, especially when he's just as bad as Owen on the sicknote front.

 

We've got to look at it this way - Owen is going, Viduka is going, Martins may go but he's not prolific even if he stays, Smith is a midfielder now, Carroll isn't good enough and Ameobi is....well, Ameobi.

 

The midfield and strikers could soon be a problem. For the first time in a long time our defence could be our strongest area.

 

1. That's a load of shit.

2. That's a load of absolute shit.

 

This "Martins only scores screamers and hardly any of them" business is particularly tiresome. He scores tap-ins, he scores headers, he scores typical centre forward's goals and yes, he scores the odd brilliant long ranger.

 

It's almost as if that goal at Spurs has gone down on his record as a bad thing - only at NUFC.

[David Icke - Son of God]

Martins is NOT our best striker. We can't rely on his half a dozen stormers a season to keep us up, especially when he's just as bad as Owen on the sicknote front.

 

We've got to look at it this way - Owen is going, Viduka is going, Martins may go but he's not prolific even if he stays, Smith is a midfielder now, Carroll isn't good enough and Ameobi is....well, Ameobi.

 

The midfield and strikers could soon be a problem. For the first time in a long time our defence could be our strongest area.

 

1. That's a load of shit.

2. That's a load of absolute shit.

 

It's not - Firstly he's scored sixth goals this season; that's half a dozen and some of them haven't even been stormers. Secondly he's played seven games less this season than permacrock Owen.

 

Feel free to expand your argument though and prove me wrong though.

[sugoinufc]

Martins is NOT our best striker. We can't rely on his half a dozen stormers a season to keep us up, especially when he's just as bad as Owen on the sicknote front.

 

We've got to look at it this way - Owen is going, Viduka is going, Martins may go but he's not prolific even if he stays, Smith is a midfielder now, Carroll isn't good enough and Ameobi is....well, Ameobi.

 

The midfield and strikers could soon be a problem. For the first time in a long time our defence could be our strongest area.

 

who is our best striker then....you didn´t answer? martins isn´t as injured as owen either! are you drunk?

[Yorkie]

Martins is NOT our best striker. We can't rely on his half a dozen stormers a season to keep us up, especially when he's just as bad as Owen on the sicknote front.

 

We've got to look at it this way - Owen is going, Viduka is going, Martins may go but he's not prolific even if he stays, Smith is a midfielder now, Carroll isn't good enough and Ameobi is....well, Ameobi.

 

The midfield and strikers could soon be a problem. For the first time in a long time our defence could be our strongest area.

 

1. That's a load of shit.

2. That's a load of absolute shit.

 

This "Martins only scores screamers and hardly any of them" business is particularly tiresome. He scores tap-ins, he scores headers, he scores typical centre forward's goals and yes, he scores the odd brilliant long ranger.

 

It's almost as if that goal at Spurs has gone down on his record as a bad thing - only at NUFC.

 

Thanks for saying what i couldn't be arsed to say. Like you say, just cos he's got a couple of screamers, all of a sudden that's all he's good for. It's just nonsense. As for the injury record thing, there is absolutely nothing whatsoever to back up such a claim. He's had a hernia issue this season. Played near 50 games in his first season; he was left out a lot last season under Allardyce and there was the ACN, but i can't remember any real injuries. A couple niggles here and there, sure, but to say he's as bad as Owen is just mental.

[Yorkie]

Martins is NOT our best striker. We can't rely on his half a dozen stormers a season to keep us up, especially when he's just as bad as Owen on the sicknote front.

 

We've got to look at it this way - Owen is going, Viduka is going, Martins may go but he's not prolific even if he stays, Smith is a midfielder now, Carroll isn't good enough and Ameobi is....well, Ameobi.

 

The midfield and strikers could soon be a problem. For the first time in a long time our defence could be our strongest area.

 

1. That's a load of shit.

2. That's a load of absolute shit.

 

It's not - Firstly he's scored sixth goals this season; that's half a dozen and some of them haven't even been stormers. Secondly he's played seven games less this season than permacrock Owen.

 

Feel free to expand your argument though and prove me wrong though.

 

Done.

[David Icke - Son of God]

Martins is NOT our best striker. We can't rely on his half a dozen stormers a season to keep us up, especially when he's just as bad as Owen on the sicknote front.

 

We've got to look at it this way - Owen is going, Viduka is going, Martins may go but he's not prolific even if he stays, Smith is a midfielder now, Carroll isn't good enough and Ameobi is....well, Ameobi.

 

The midfield and strikers could soon be a problem. For the first time in a long time our defence could be our strongest area.

 

1. That's a load of shit.

2. That's a load of absolute shit.

 

This "Martins only scores screamers and hardly any of them" business is particularly tiresome. He scores tap-ins, he scores headers, he scores typical centre forward's goals and yes, he scores the odd brilliant long ranger.

 

It's almost as if that goal at Spurs has gone down on his record as a bad thing - only at NUFC.

 

Not saying he doesn't score simple goals, he just doesn't do it enough if he wants to be considered a top class striker. His ability in front of goal isn't one of his main problems - his lack of pace and a footballing brain are.

 

Anyone who say's he is our best striker needs their head seeing to. Owen is world class and we'll not see his ilk at this club in a long time.

[Yorkie]

Martins is NOT our best striker. We can't rely on his half a dozen stormers a season to keep us up, especially when he's just as bad as Owen on the sicknote front.

 

We've got to look at it this way - Owen is going, Viduka is going, Martins may go but he's not prolific even if he stays, Smith is a midfielder now, Carroll isn't good enough and Ameobi is....well, Ameobi.

 

The midfield and strikers could soon be a problem. For the first time in a long time our defence could be our strongest area.

 

1. That's a load of shit.

2. That's a load of absolute shit.

 

This "Martins only scores screamers and hardly any of them" business is particularly tiresome. He scores tap-ins, he scores headers, he scores typical centre forward's goals and yes, he scores the odd brilliant long ranger.

 

It's almost as if that goal at Spurs has gone down on his record as a bad thing - only at NUFC.

 

Not saying he doesn't score simple goals, he just doesn't do it enough if he wants to be considered a top class striker. His ability in front of goal isn't one of his main problems - his lack of pace and a footballing brain are.

 

That's me done with this one.   Played.

[sugoinufc]

Martins is NOT our best striker. We can't rely on his half a dozen stormers a season to keep us up, especially when he's just as bad as Owen on the sicknote front.

 

We've got to look at it this way - Owen is going, Viduka is going, Martins may go but he's not prolific even if he stays, Smith is a midfielder now, Carroll isn't good enough and Ameobi is....well, Ameobi.

 

The midfield and strikers could soon be a problem. For the first time in a long time our defence could be our strongest area.

 

1. That's a load of s***.

2. That's a load of absolute s***.

 

It's not - Firstly he's scored sixth goals this season; that's half a dozen and some of them haven't even been stormers. Secondly he's played seven games less this season than permacrock Owen.

 

Feel free to expand your argument though and prove me wrong though.

 

has a different partner every match (almost). no delivery and plays in a s... team! what do you expect?

[David Icke - Son of God]

Martins is NOT our best striker. We can't rely on his half a dozen stormers a season to keep us up, especially when he's just as bad as Owen on the sicknote front.

 

We've got to look at it this way - Owen is going, Viduka is going, Martins may go but he's not prolific even if he stays, Smith is a midfielder now, Carroll isn't good enough and Ameobi is....well, Ameobi.

 

The midfield and strikers could soon be a problem. For the first time in a long time our defence could be our strongest area.

 

1. That's a load of s***.

2. That's a load of absolute s***.

 

It's not - Firstly he's scored sixth goals this season; that's half a dozen and some of them haven't even been stormers. Secondly he's played seven games less this season than permacrock Owen.

 

Feel free to expand your argument though and prove me wrong though.

 

has a different partner every match (almost). no delivery and plays in a s... team! what do you expect?

 

So has Owen, i'm sure he wasn't expecting to play alongside Andy Carroll this season.

 

Seriously, this "Martins is better than Owen is better than Martins is better than Owen" argument is tiresome. You can only go on who does their job the best and Owen does just that.

[Yorkie]

I wasn't really arguing Owen vs Martins... i was just defending Oba. The two are pretty much on par in terms of importance.

[sugoinufc]

Martins is NOT our best striker. We can't rely on his half a dozen stormers a season to keep us up, especially when he's just as bad as Owen on the sicknote front.

 

We've got to look at it this way - Owen is going, Viduka is going, Martins may go but he's not prolific even if he stays, Smith is a midfielder now, Carroll isn't good enough and Ameobi is....well, Ameobi.

 

The midfield and strikers could soon be a problem. For the first time in a long time our defence could be our strongest area.

 

1. That's a load of s***.

2. That's a load of absolute s***.

 

This "Martins only scores screamers and hardly any of them" business is particularly tiresome. He scores tap-ins, he scores headers, he scores typical centre forward's goals and yes, he scores the odd brilliant long ranger.

 

It's almost as if that goal at Spurs has gone down on his record as a bad thing - only at NUFC.

 

Not saying he doesn't score simple goals, he just doesn't do it enough if he wants to be considered a top class striker. His ability in front of goal isn't one of his main problems - his lack of pace and a footballing brain are.

 

That's me done with this one.   Played.

Lack of pace

go to bed and sleep it off.....your rampling!

 

[Wullie]

Martins is NOT our best striker. We can't rely on his half a dozen stormers a season to keep us up, especially when he's just as bad as Owen on the sicknote front.

 

We've got to look at it this way - Owen is going, Viduka is going, Martins may go but he's not prolific even if he stays, Smith is a midfielder now, Carroll isn't good enough and Ameobi is....well, Ameobi.

 

The midfield and strikers could soon be a problem. For the first time in a long time our defence could be our strongest area.

 

1. That's a load of shit.

2. That's a load of absolute shit.

 

This "Martins only scores screamers and hardly any of them" business is particularly tiresome. He scores tap-ins, he scores headers, he scores typical centre forward's goals and yes, he scores the odd brilliant long ranger.

 

It's almost as if that goal at Spurs has gone down on his record as a bad thing - only at NUFC.

 

Not saying he doesn't score simple goals, he just doesn't do it enough if he wants to be considered a top class striker. His ability in front of goal isn't one of his main problems - his lack of pace and a footballing brain are.

 

Anyone who say's he is our best striker needs their head seeing to. Owen is world class and we'll not see his ilk at this club in a long time.

 

Depends what you mean by 'best striker'. I think Owen's likely to get you more goals but I think Oba's a far more effective player to have on the pitch (particularly in a 4-4-2) - and our record without him bears that out. I'd prefer to have them both on the field tbh.

 

Lack of pace?

[David Icke - Son of God]

Martins is NOT our best striker. We can't rely on his half a dozen stormers a season to keep us up, especially when he's just as bad as Owen on the sicknote front.

 

We've got to look at it this way - Owen is going, Viduka is going, Martins may go but he's not prolific even if he stays, Smith is a midfielder now, Carroll isn't good enough and Ameobi is....well, Ameobi.

 

The midfield and strikers could soon be a problem. For the first time in a long time our defence could be our strongest area.

 

1. That's a load of s***.

2. That's a load of absolute s***.

 

This "Martins only scores screamers and hardly any of them" business is particularly tiresome. He scores tap-ins, he scores headers, he scores typical centre forward's goals and yes, he scores the odd brilliant long ranger.

 

It's almost as if that goal at Spurs has gone down on his record as a bad thing - only at NUFC.

 

Not saying he doesn't score simple goals, he just doesn't do it enough if he wants to be considered a top class striker. His ability in front of goal isn't one of his main problems - his lack of pace and a footballing brain are.

 

That's me done with this one.   Played.

Lack of pace

go to bed and sleep it off.....your rampling!

 

 

That should really read 'his inability to use his pace effectively', which has to be a key concern. Aye, he's shit hot on the training pitch but he very rarely puts that pace into use by undoing defences. It points to a lack of a footballing brain.

 

Anyway, I wish I was 'rampling'. Sounds cool as fuck.

[sugoinufc]

Martins is NOT our best striker. We can't rely on his half a dozen stormers a season to keep us up, especially when he's just as bad as Owen on the sicknote front.

 

We've got to look at it this way - Owen is going, Viduka is going, Martins may go but he's not prolific even if he stays, Smith is a midfielder now, Carroll isn't good enough and Ameobi is....well, Ameobi.

 

The midfield and strikers could soon be a problem. For the first time in a long time our defence could be our strongest area.

 

1. That's a load of s***.

2. That's a load of absolute s***.

 

It's not - Firstly he's scored sixth goals this season; that's half a dozen and some of them haven't even been stormers. Secondly he's played seven games less this season than permacrock Owen.

 

Feel free to expand your argument though and prove me wrong though.

 

has a different partner every match (almost). no delivery and plays in a s... team! what do you expect?

 

So has Owen, i'm sure he wasn't expecting to play alongside Andy Carroll this season.

 

Seriously, this "Martins is better than Owen is better than Martins is better than Owen" argument is tiresome. You can only go on who does their job the best and Owen does just that.

 

hard to say whos best of the two......i just believe martins is more important to keep here than owen when you think of.....age, injuries and ambition

[Yorkie]

Martins has to merely stand still in the middle of the pitch to use his pace effectively. The defenders drop back two yards simply cos he's there.

 

We bummed the world's best team on the counter the other night if you hadn't noticed. Aye it frittered out but we had them on the backfoot for large sections of that first half. We would not have been if Oba wasn't playing.

 

Aye he could use it better, but i'm in the minority that thinks he's actually improved as a footballer in his time here. But he doesn't use it badly, not at all. I find it impossible to miss his improvement tbh, especially under Keegan (oh woe is me ) but others, meh.

[David Icke - Son of God]

Martins is NOT our best striker. We can't rely on his half a dozen stormers a season to keep us up, especially when he's just as bad as Owen on the sicknote front.

 

We've got to look at it this way - Owen is going, Viduka is going, Martins may go but he's not prolific even if he stays, Smith is a midfielder now, Carroll isn't good enough and Ameobi is....well, Ameobi.

 

The midfield and strikers could soon be a problem. For the first time in a long time our defence could be our strongest area.

 

1. That's a load of s***.

2. That's a load of absolute s***.

 

It's not - Firstly he's scored sixth goals this season; that's half a dozen and some of them haven't even been stormers. Secondly he's played seven games less this season than permacrock Owen.

 

Feel free to expand your argument though and prove me wrong though.

 

has a different partner every match (almost). no delivery and plays in a s... team! what do you expect?

 

So has Owen, i'm sure he wasn't expecting to play alongside Andy Carroll this season.

 

Seriously, this "Martins is better than Owen is better than Martins is better than Owen" argument is tiresome. You can only go on who does their job the best and Owen does just that.

 

hard to say whos best of the two......i just believe martins is more important to keep here than owen when you think of.....age, injuries and ambition

 

Bollocks. Owen is the better player.

 

There are areas of Martins game which will not improve with age. For example, he will never have a first touch. I'd rather we had an out and out striker who scores goals as and when.

[David Icke - Son of God]

Martins has to merely stand still in the middle of the pitch to use his pace effectively. The defenders drop back two yards simply cos he's there.

 

We bummed the world's best team on the counter the other night if you hadn't noticed. Aye it frittered out but we had them on the backfoot for large sections of that first half. We would not have been if Oba wasn't playing.

 

Aye he could use it better, but i'm in the minority that thinks he's actually improved as a footballer in his time here. But he doesn't use it badly, not at all. I find it impossible to miss his improvement tbh, especially under Keegan (oh woe is me ) but others, meh.

He doesn't use his pace effectively though, that's the problem. He needs the ball to his feet as well as at least two touches before he can break into a semi-sprint and at the top level you don't get that sort of time.

 

I thought Martins was poor against Man United as was Lovenkrands. He lost the ball alot (again, down to his shite first touch) and didn't have the grey matter betwixt his lugs to find the defence splitting passes when it mattered. I thought the sheer workrate of our left wing had more to do with our performance than any other area of our team.

[Optimistic Nut]

Martins is NOT our best striker. We can't rely on his half a dozen stormers a season to keep us up, especially when he's just as bad as Owen on the sicknote front.

 

We've got to look at it this way - Owen is going, Viduka is going, Martins may go but he's not prolific even if he stays, Smith is a midfielder now, Carroll isn't good enough and Ameobi is....well, Ameobi.

 

The midfield and strikers could soon be a problem. For the first time in a long time our defence could be our strongest area.

 

1. That's a load of s***.

2. That's a load of absolute s***.

 

It's not - Firstly he's scored sixth goals this season; that's half a dozen and some of them haven't even been stormers. Secondly he's played seven games less this season than permacrock Owen.

 

Feel free to expand your argument though and prove me wrong though.

 

has a different partner every match (almost). no delivery and plays in a s... team! what do you expect?

 

So has Owen, i'm sure he wasn't expecting to play alongside Andy Carroll this season.

 

Seriously, this "Martins is better than Owen is better than Martins is better than Owen" argument is tiresome. You can only go on who does their job the best and Owen does just that.

 

Was about to say, in the games leading up to the City game, our front two was...

 

Portsmouth (A) - Owen & Martins

Spurs (H) - Owen & Ameobi

Wigan (A) - Owen & Viduka

Liverpool (H) - Owen & Duff

Hull (A) - Owen & Carroll

West Ham (H) - Owen & Carroll

Hull (H) - Owen & Xisco

Blackburn (A) - Owen & Carroll

[merlin]

No, this isn't much of a positive thread.

 

There are a lot of people who feel they should defend Ashley's plan/gamble based on the finances being much healthier next year should we stay up. I think they're hoping that with better finances, some wasters off the wage bill and this season out of the way, we can look to settle the club down and move forward and upwards in the league.

 

The thing that worries me should we stay up is that Ashley/Llambias will think things have worked out okay and try the same next season. Cheap manager (they already seem to have decided this), cheap players (Ameobi, Butt etc) and looking purely to keep our heads above water. The recent comments from Llambias about the squad being 'great' really concern me, because I totally disagree. Especially when you take into account the players who are definitely leaving in the summer, those who may jump ship and the calibre of manager the club are expecting to manage them effectively.

 

I'm waffling here, so I guess I'm just asking what gives people confidence that should we stay up this year things will automatically improve in the coming seasons? Am I being overly cynical here or what?

 

No, I don't think you are being cynical Dave - your assessment of what they will do IF the club stays up is probably spot-on.

I also think things are going to get even tougher for retailers so Ashley will be even more inclined to cut corners and go for the cheap option as funds become tighter and his business with Sports Direct will, of course, come first.

 

They are making it up as they go along so no-one should expect any better next season, but if the game at Hull is lost, this thread will probably be academic anyway.

[Begbie]

Goalkeepers:

Krul and Forster(Harper is to old)

 

Harper is too old? He's young a a keeper, Van der Saar is 38.

 

With that logic we would've gotten rid of Given at the end of next season.

 

Van Der Sar and Given has played first team football for over a decade now, Harper hasnt.  You can see that Harper is missing something to his game, he looks a bit slow and to often stands on his line instead of acting like a sweeper to help out the defence(maybe the alonso chip from midfield is still ringing his ears).

 

I rather we gave one of our youngster a shot, I have seen Krul in the game against Palermo and he was up to the task then.

[Neil]

The question is, do you risk playing Martins because he looks dangerous? Ultimately if both are fit, Owen imo will do more damage because he's more intelligent.

[Yorkie]

The question is, do you risk playing Martins because he looks dangerous? Ultimately if both are fit, Owen imo will do more damage because he's more intelligent.

 

Very debatable iyam. I don't want to fall into the Owen vs Martins argument again, but you only have to look at our record without Oba to see that he's more influential on the pitch. He mightn't score as many goals, but in a 4-4-2, Owen's invisible unless he's poaching goals. In terms of adding to the team's play, i'd say Martins does more 'damage'.

 

But as has been said, i'd rather just have em both in the side.