Guest bimpy474 Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 You don't have to win a World Cup to be the world best footballer, what if you're born in a country like Liberia (Goerge Weah) or Northern Ireland (George Best). Using the World Cup as a barometer is unfair imo. For players born there, then yes, but Messi is from Argentina, one of the greatest football nations and who over the last 10 years have had players in abundance and yet failed to win anything except a silly Olympic gold. So yes he has ''failed'' at international level. That's still unfair in some ways, Messi could have been born when other Argentina players were average, yet a Spanish player could have been born in a golden era of Spanish players therefore having the advantage and platform to perform. Just imo like. not to mention Messi was an adult in the era of that brilliant, dominant Spanish side, and now this fantastic German side. In '86, Maradona had a good team, and did carry them at times, but he was also a bit lucky that he didn't have to face the two most talented sides in the tournament (both of whom were very unlucky, and played each other in one of the best games I have ever seen): France and Brazil. Exactly, the World Cup is too narrow a field to judge it by imo. By the way this is no defence of Messi, just a point i'm making in general. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Anyway i disagree with the crux of the argument, i can respect people prefer Zidane because he was more aesthetically pleasing. I personally look for different things when analyzing greatness but i can respect everyone's opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 You don't have to win a World Cup to be the world best footballer, what if you're born in a country like Liberia (Goerge Weah) or Northern Ireland (George Best). Using the World Cup as a barometer is unfair imo. For players born there, then yes, but Messi is from Argentina, one of the greatest football nations and who over the last 10 years have had players in abundance and yet failed to win anything except a silly Olympic gold. So yes he has ''failed'' at international level. That's still unfair in some ways, Messi could have been born when other Argentina players were average, yet a Spanish player could have been born in a golden era of Spanish players therefore having the advantage and platform to perform. Just imo like. not to mention Messi was an adult in the era of that brilliant, dominant Spanish side, and now this fantastic German side. In '86, Maradona had a good team, and did carry them at times, but he was also a bit lucky that he didn't have to face the two most talented sides in the tournament (both of whom were very unlucky, and played each other in one of the best games I have ever seen): France and Brazil. Exactly, the World Cup is too narrow a field to judge it by imo. By the way this is no defence of Messi, just a point i'm making in general. I respect that, but for me and many others the World Cup is the biggest stage of them all, the stage where the greatest of all times all played above their levels and won no matter who the opposition were. I see Messi as the best of his generation, but like I said how can he be considered the best of all times if he won't even be considered the best to play for his country? I for one thought he was resting for the World Cup, but it's quite clear something isn't right, while HTT is a bit harsh I agree with a lot having watched every Barcelona game this season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Craig-NUFC Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 http://i.imgur.com/k0XRVov.png Probably already common knowledge, but just chucking it in the mix. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Zidane better than Messi The only other player anywhere near him in our generation of watching football is Ronaldo before his injury imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Green Balls Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Zidane was more elegant but so is Iniesta is he better than Messi too? I don't think Zidane is better than Messi. Adding all things up, I would have to pause to decide who is better tbh, probably I would give the nod to Messi. But Zidane's 3 World Player of the Year awards is nothing to shake a stick at. Both played with their generations best players, although I think Messi's supporting cast shades it. Both have fucked up when their team needed them the most (Zidane's head butt in '06), which happens to nearly anyone. But both have also stepped up when their teams have needed them the most. Messi just hasn't really done it so much on the international stage. But one thing Messi has that sets him apart from almost any player I have ever seen is his supernatural balance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Zidane better than Messi The only other player anywhere near him in our generation of watching football is Ronaldo before his injury imo. Zidane was a joy to watch tbf. But I'd still have Messi above him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 http://i.imgur.com/k0XRVov.png Probably already common knowledge, but just chucking it in the mix. Clap trap, the man barely moved during 120 minutes other than when the ball was played to his feet and even if all that jazz was a factor, you don't play the way he did in a WC Final. Its doe or die really in these games and he ambled about as if he was taking a stroll on a sunday afternoon with the wife or out on the beach with the dog. It was all so leisurely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Green Balls Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 You don't have to win a World Cup to be the world best footballer, what if you're born in a country like Liberia (Goerge Weah) or Northern Ireland (George Best). Using the World Cup as a barometer is unfair imo. For players born there, then yes, but Messi is from Argentina, one of the greatest football nations and who over the last 10 years have had players in abundance and yet failed to win anything except a silly Olympic gold. So yes he has ''failed'' at international level. That's still unfair in some ways, Messi could have been born when other Argentina players were average, yet a Spanish player could have been born in a golden era of Spanish players therefore having the advantage and platform to perform. Just imo like. not to mention Messi was an adult in the era of that brilliant, dominant Spanish side, and now this fantastic German side. In '86, Maradona had a good team, and did carry them at times, but he was also a bit lucky that he didn't have to face the two most talented sides in the tournament (both of whom were very unlucky, and played each other in one of the best games I have ever seen): France and Brazil. Exactly, the World Cup is too narrow a field to judge it by imo. By the way this is no defence of Messi, just a point i'm making in general. I respect that, but for me and many others the World Cup is the biggest stage of them all, the stage where the greatest of all times all played above their levels and won no matter who the opposition were. I see Messi as the best of his generation, but like I said how can he be considered the best of all times if he won't even be considered the best to play for his country? I for one thought he was resting for the World Cup, but it's quite clear something isn't right, while HTT is a bit harsh I agree with a lot having watched every Barcelona game this season. But it also depends on the opposition. That '86 German team was not great to be frank, and did just enough to get into the final. That early goal, and France's exhausting and immense quarterfinal with Brazil gave Germany just enough to shock France. I wonder what Argentina-Brazil or Argentina-France would have been like? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Absolutely not a chance Zidane was better than Messi. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Zidane better than Messi The only other player anywhere near him in our generation of watching football is Ronaldo before his injury imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Zidane better than Messi The only other player anywhere near him in our generation of watching football is Ronaldo before his injury imo. Zidane was a joy to watch tbf. But I'd still have Messi above him. He was, I absolutely loved him and he's up there as one of the best ever. It shouldn't be something to laugh about when being compared to another player, but I think it is in this case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Green Balls Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 And Messi's miss was shocking last night, but only because we are used to seeing him bury it 8 out of 10 times. Many tend to forget his past misses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Again... You are the best player in the world, one of the greatest of all time, you are the Captain of your side in the World Cup Final and for 120 minutes you walk around the pitch as if you're taking a walk along the beach or a country lane with the wife then sorry, but that's not the stamp of someone who is the greatest of all time. I don't disagree with you really, but that's just the way he plays now. He waits for the ball to come to him and then tries to use his pace and skill to beat defenders, like the way he burned Hummels with pace on a few occasions in the first half If that is now his game, it so easy to defend against, and he will rapidly go on a huge decline if this is how he will now play. Germany didn't even man mark him or try to kick him out of the game. He is Messi so he is always going to dribble past someone or get a chance at goal, but if he is playing on the peripheral of things, waiting like a cat to pounce then the advantage isn't with him, but the opposition because his whole game is decided on percentages. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Zidane better than Messi The only other player anywhere near him in our generation of watching football is Ronaldo before his injury imo. Zidane was a joy to watch tbf. But I'd still have Messi above him. He was, I absolutely loved him and he's up there as one of the best ever. It shouldn't be something to laugh about when being compared to another player, but I think it is in this case. Can't disagree with that. Still the most entertaining player I've seen (not best!) is Ronaldinho in his prime. Every week it felt like he was inventing something new. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Green Balls Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Zidane better than Messi The only other player anywhere near him in our generation of watching football is Ronaldo before his injury imo. Zidane was a joy to watch tbf. But I'd still have Messi above him. the more I think about it, the more I agree tbh. I suppose it's a matter of whose style I prefer watching that would even give me pause, which is obviously not a good way to measure who is the better player. Otherwise, I would have Michael Laudrup in the same breath, because of how much I looked forward to watching him play. But he was obviously no Messi. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Absolutely not a chance Zidane was better than Messi. As individuals, I think Zidane had more to his own game than Messi does. The biggest difference between the two for me is their ability to dictate play outside of themselves actually scoring or assisting. Zidane could control a game, dominate a midfield or an opponent in a fashion that at times was like a cat toying with a ball of string. He was so graceful and elegant in the way he played. Whenever I watched Zidane for some reason you were transfixed on him and him only, the opposition or other players were meaningless, it was all about Zidane. Thierry Henry had that similar elegance and grace when he played, maybe its a French thing. Stats wise, trophy wise etc. Messi pisses all over Zidane, but as individuals, I prefer Zidane and regard hims as the better footballer. Each to their own though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Green Balls Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Sometimes it looks likes it's impossible for anything but an IDF bulldozer to remove the ball from Messi's feet. That's why he is rightly compared to Maradona. Zidane sure as hell did not have his ability with the ball, nor his unbelievable balance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Ronaldinho was a freak for a few seasons, arguably the most exciting player since Maradona and perhaps up there with Pele and the Argentinian in terms of wow factor. He had a poor attitude, however, and wasn't anywhere near as consistently great as was needed to be genuinely thought of as belonging right up there. As an individual though perhaps he is closest to Pele and Maradona as any of them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Sometimes it looks likes it's impossible for anything but an IDF bulldozer to remove the ball from Messi's feet. That's why he is rightly compared to Maradona. Zidane sure as hell did not have his ability with the ball, nor his unbelievable balance. Zidane on his day I believe was even harder to take the ball away from tbf. Zidane was the master of protecting a football. There's a swedish player who played for Bari and said he spent 90minutes marking Zidane, because even if his team had the ball the manager wanted Zidane marked because if he got hold of it, it was impossible to get it back no matter where on the pitch. But I still believe Messi is a better player because he has really performed at a peak for so many years. It's been half a decade of dominating most players. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Sometimes it looks likes it's impossible for anything but an IDF bulldozer to remove the ball from Messi's feet. That's why he is rightly compared to Maradona. Zidane sure as hell did not have his ability with the ball, nor his unbelievable balance. Sorry, but the ball stuck to Zidane like glue and his balance was amazing giving his height, frame, size, weight etc. He was a big man. I'm not knocking Messi's balance or ability with the ball btw, he is a level above Zidane running with the ball at his feet and all that it brings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Green Balls Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I am literally talking about how the ball sticks to Messi's feet while running at full speed, and how he seems to go through 3 defenders like they are not there. Zidane was incredible, but I don't think he quite had Messi's abilities there. A lot of it goes back to Messi's balance at full speed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Zidane better than Messi The only other player anywhere near him in our generation of watching football is Ronaldo before his injury imo. :thup: Fucking Zidane. man. Great player but it's embarrassing how folk hype him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I am literally talking about how the ball sticks to Messi's feet while running at full speed, and how he seems to go through 3 defenders like they are not there. Zidane was incredible, but I don't think he quite had Messi's abilities there. A lot of it goes back to Messi's balance at full speed. Oh, then I agree At full speed and the ball to his feet is just amazing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Anyway for me... Pele -> Maradona -> Zidane -> Cruff -> Messi -> Ronaldo -> Ronaldinho -> CRonaldo -> Collins John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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