madras Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Winning domestic cups is nice but ultimately means f*** all in terms of "is a team good" look no further than brum last season. O'Neill has never came anywhere near winning a top flight domestic title, never created a team that's good to watch, never turned a club round the way Keegan did. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Winning domestic cups is nice but ultimately means f*** all in terms of "is a team good" look no further than brum last season. O'Neill has never came anywhere near winning a top flight domestic title, never created a team that's good to watch, never turned a club round the way Keegan did. the willingness to belittle his achievements at leicester so easily is beyond me, now the mark of a successful manager is not to win a trophy? he got them in europe, established them in the top flight, won 2 domestic cups and lost another final...it's hardly like he just fucking fluked it is it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Poor teams can win cups its quite simple really. If he has them challenging for the title then you'd have a point. There not a great deal of difference between oneill acheivments and sounesses. ( except balckburn played much better football than Leicester) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Poor teams can win cups its quite simple really. If he has them challenging for the title then you'd have a point. There not a great deal of difference between oneill acheivments and sounesses. ( except balckburn played much better football than Leicester) good teams can win cups too, just not ours apparently Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ObiChrisKenobi Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Poor teams can win cups its quite simple really. If he has them challenging for the title then you'd have a point. There not a great deal of difference between oneill acheivments and sounesses. ( except balckburn played much better football than Leicester) good teams can win cups too, just not ours apparently Average team status confirmed. Verified with forum math and logic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 i just don't get it man, winning cups can be disregarded as an achievement but having a team that looked pretty and achieved nothing is the barometer for success? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 i just don't get it man, winning cups can be disregarded as an achievement but having a team that looked pretty and achieved nothing is the barometer for success? Aye, could be argued that what O'Neill did at Leicester (still at grotty Filbert Street) on a much, much smaller budget and without the draw of KK was far more impressive than Keegan spending his way to the top of the Premiership, only to blow a 12pt lead. I dislike MON (due to the constant hype he gets from the media) but he genuinely did an amazing job at Leicester and a reasonable one at Celtic (in terms of Europe) - to say that KK is miles better than him is ridiculous. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 i just don't get it man, winning cups can be disregarded as an achievement but having a team that looked pretty and achieved nothing is the barometer for success? Aye, could be argued that what O'Neill did at Leicester (still at grotty Filbert Street) on a much, much smaller budget and without the draw of KK was far more impressive than Keegan spending his way to the top of the Premiership, only to blow a 12pt lead. I dislike MON (due to the constant hype he gets from the media) but he genuinely did an amazing job at Leicester and a reasonable one at Celtic (in terms of Europe) - to say that KK is miles better than him is ridiculous. i wouldn't look down on what either of them did or achieved personally, both have their merits, but to outright dismiss MoN (who i also don't really like) as a vastly inferior manager to keegan is unreal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BooBoo Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Really frustrating that considering the great team KK assembled, we never once came even close to winning a cup competition. Two quarter finals appearances was pretty disappointing considering our strong league performances. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Well its up to you I suppose, you can choose between a manager who won two league cups and done little in the league or one who saved a team from relgation to the third tier, got them promoted first time of asking, finished 3rd in their first season up, then 6th then only lost out on the title on the last day the season after that. No contest in my eyes. Did anyone day oneill was vastly inferior to Keegan ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 not sure which part you're missing, all i've personally ever said is that in the grand scheme they'll be considered at a similar level of manager you've offered nothing by way of explanation to suggest why that isn't the case Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Except spell out that one was better in the league which is what really sorts out good teams from the rest. I'm not putting Keegan alongside Ferguson but I would put oneills acheivments alongside sounesses. You ought to spell out why oneill should rank alongside Keegan, take out the league cups, which as we've saw prove nothing and you wouldn't put them near each other. You're really letting them cloud the issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Well its up to you I suppose, you can choose between a manager who won two league cups and done little in the league or one who saved a team from relgation to the third tier, got them promoted first time of asking, finished 3rd in their first season up, then 6th then only lost out on the title on the last day the season after that. No contest in my eyes. Did anyone day oneill was vastly inferior to Keegan ? I would say that MON did far more at Leicester (when you factor in their history, size of club and finances available to him) than Keegan did at NUFC. As Mojo says, neither were disappointments (except for Keegan walking out) but what MON did has yet to be surpassed; whereas it could be said that Chelsea have already exceeded Keegan by spending their way to success, rather than 'nearly success'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Except spell out that one was better in the league which is what really sorts out good teams from the rest. I'm not putting Keegan alongside Ferguson but I would put oneills acheivments alongside sounesses. i'd like to see that explained in detail like, can only assume you're using rangers/celtic & blackburn/leicester as a comparison...does it not count in sounesses "achievements" that he basically ruined 2 football clubs single handed? MoN doesn't have that in his locker, unfortunately for him, hey here's hoping he's about to add it now Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Check how much Keegan spent on taking us from 4th bottom of the championship to 3rd in the prem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Except spell out that one was better in the league which is what really sorts out good teams from the rest. I'm not putting Keegan alongside Ferguson but I would put oneills acheivments alongside sounesses. Have to disagree, Blackburn when Souness took over had been an established Prem team (champions within the past decade, no less!) and Leicester were a struggling yo-yo team - he turned them into regular top-10 finishers and won silverware which got them into Europe, all on a relative shoestring (unlike Souness) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Check how much Keegan spent on taking us from 4th bottom of the championship to 3rd in the prem. Hundreds of billions? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 The cash had just about ran out when souness got to Blackburn, they played far better football on coming back up than Leicester aswell. The fact of their past has little bearing what they they were by that point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 The cash had just about ran out when souness got to Blackburn, they played far better football on coming back up than Leicester aswell. The fact of their past has little bearing what they they were by that point. Surely it has everything to do with expectations and whether or not the manager has succeeded them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 http://www.worldfootball.net/teams/blackburn-rovers/2001/2/ squad souness started the promotion season with Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Expectations are decided by what is not what was. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 http://www.worldfootball.net/teams/leicester-city/1996/2/ MON's first full season with Leicester - he'd just taken them up via the play-offs between Jan and May - won the League Cup the following season after adding Guppy, Izzet and Kasey Keller to the squad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Expectations are decided by what is not what was. That's a helluva throwaway quote, sir! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 http://www.worldfootball.net/teams/leicester-city/1996/2/ MON's first full season with Leicester - he'd just taken them up via the play-offs between Jan and May - won the League Cup the following season after adding Guppy, Izzet and Kasey Keller to the squad. christ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espio Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 ... So, Sunderland, they're cunts aren't they? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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