The moral obligations of a football club... is signing Joey Barton moral?

[DJ_NUFC]

He was hospitalized. It's cool though, as he's French.

 

I suppose, judging from your post, you're pro-Barton, even him as a person?

 

I still bear a grudge over the arrow in the eye incident of 1066.

 

I am not that bothered about Barton the person, if he joins us he needs to lead a life that doesn't distract or effect his or his teammates performance on the pitch. If he is incapable of doing this then we should not sign him, it is all about the team & not individuals.

 

Tru dat.

[ChezGiven]

I think this deserves its own thread but I've not posted enough so feck it I'll stick it in here.

I want to pose the question of is signing Joey Barton moral?  Football clubs many people are quick to point out are NOT just businesses they are part of the fabric of people's lives and upbrings.  People can even use a football club to form some sort of identity, this can be especially true of Newcastle fans (in case anyone was wondering I am a one).  Because of this can we look at the signing of Barton along purely footballing lines as in he's a pretty good player?  A disciplinary record like his would prevent him holding a job in the public sector and in many private business.  For me I can't justify the signing of Barton because of this.  So lets start a debate, oh and if any clever admin type person wants to stick this in a thread on its own with a poll that would be groovy.

 

Deserves a wider discussion in my opinion not just about Barton but the whole football and morals issue 

 

Is signing Joey Barton moral?

 

What moral obligations does a football club, our club have to fill, if at all?

 

none.

 

But it will be interesting to see how many people who supported the sale of Craig Bellamy for being a "cancer" change their stance on Barton.

 

Me ? If he's half the player Bellamy was, I'll be happy

 

In fact, he can stamp on Frank Lampards knackers as much as he likes .....

 

 

 

[garth]

MY biggest concern for this c*** is, what the atmosphere will be like at club if he does comes, everyone knowing his reputation will someone try to test him out?, just to satisfy his own ego. Will there be underlying hostility towards him?

[merlin]

Was it 'moral' of Manure to keep Cantona after he launched himself feet-first into the crowd at Selhurst Park..??

Media made all sorts of excuses for him, was back playing again within months.

 

Just watch self-righteous clowns like Collins in the Mail on Sunday have a go at NUFC for signing Barton, yet not a word against Cantona because he was a foreigner and played for his beloved Reds...

 

Bloody hypocrites, the lot of them.

[Ericz]

Before one even start a debate on it, ask yourself these:

 

What is moral obligations?

What do you know about moral obligations?

 

In truth, even academics have problems grappling with the concept and definition of what is moral. For normal people like us, I don't think we are well-equipped to answer that.

 

Everybody's moral values are different. For example, I think those who wear skimpy clothings are not decent and they lack moral values but you may think otherwise. You get what I mean?

 

According to JS Mills, moral values are merely views of the majority. Learnings of witchcraft, Gods, demons, astrology were once followed religiously, because people thought of them as being moral. However, is it really moral? Essentially, we are touching on the realm of philosophy.

 

In my humble opinion. i prefer to use a modern way to look at matters, a utilitarian approach, maybe even Richard Posner's economic approach. The way to judge something is whether does it give you maximum utility/profit in the long run or not. Yes, it is pragmatic. But in this world, what is not pragmatic? Football will not survive and flourish without money being involved. It is reality.

 

If a proper risk assessment is conscientiously carried out proving that the benefits of signing him outweighs the detriment, i think it is a good move. Otherwise, it is not. But like I said, there needs to be proper risk assessment, not the usual advantages and disadvantages thing, it is more than that (i.e. SWOT analysis etc)

 

 

 

Regards,

Ericz

 

 

 

 

 

[womblemaster]

id say we had a moral responsibility to sign the poor soul.  We need to save him from that hell that is manchester. I am sure once he moves to more sane region then his behaviour will improve.

 

Either that or hes a total mentalist rotten to the core and beyond help.

 

Probably just needs a geordie lass to sort him out.

[Guest ryunufc]

the obligation of nufc is to educate their players. when he signs it is Sam who has the responsibility the most and everyone must help.

[toontownman]

Barton is without doubt a talented footballer, unfortunately with alot of anger management issues. Like a few people have said, these people should be ostracised but helped.

 

He isnt someone that goes out living in large, much like the bowyer we saw at Newcastle he is reasonably reclusive, likes going fishing rather than lording it up in clubs covered in bling.

 

Im not excusing some of the things he has done, for instance players like dyer and bramble in the past were not violent whilst constantly getting bad press. Maybe the support given wasnt enough in the past for him, or the people advising him are also guilty.

 

Whilst obviously wrong his crimes are more of passion than stupidity or ego driven, his openess of his problems and willingness to get help is a good sign.

 

Its strange, ive sat and watched a sport where fighting is all but actively encouraged throughout the match all night. football players fight like girls to people over here.

 

Had Barton, bowyer and alike been Ice Hockey players they would be the hunters rather than the hunted.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Before one even start a debate on it, ask yourself these:

 

What is moral obligations?

What do you know about moral obligations?

 

In truth, even academics have problems grappling with the concept and definition of what is moral. For normal people like us, I don't think we are well-equipped to answer that.

 

Everybody's moral values are different. For example, I think those who wear skimpy clothings are not decent and they lack moral values but you may think otherwise. You get what I mean?

 

According to JS Mills, moral values are merely views of the majority. Learnings of witchcraft, Gods, demons, astrology were once followed religiously, because people thought of them as being moral. However, is it really moral? Essentially, we are touching on the realm of philosophy.

 

In my humble opinion. i prefer to use a modern way to look at matters, a utilitarian approach, maybe even Richard Posner's economic approach. The way to judge something is whether does it give you maximum utility/profit in the long run or not. Yes, it is pragmatic. But in this world, what is not pragmatic? Football will not survive and flourish without money being involved. It is reality.

 

If a proper risk assessment is conscientiously carried out proving that the benefits of signing him outweighs the detriment, i think it is a good move. Otherwise, it is not. But like I said, there needs to be proper risk assessment, not the usual advantages and disadvantages thing, it is more than that (i.e. SWOT analysis etc)

 

 

 

Regards,

Ericz

 

 

I see what you're saying Ericz, and Utilitarianism would say let's get Barton in - we will profit from it in the long run. But I think in order to have this debate we have to have some sort of moral standards to measure against.

 

I think most people agree that some of the stuff Joey has been involved in is pretty shameful. But is it bad enough to mean he shouldn't be given another chance, or that his career should be seriously damaged? I'm not sure... many players have some back from some fairly serious things and turned themselves around.

 

It is going to be difficult to anaylse the Barton signing in the detailed way you're suggesting, I mean who really knows what the chances of Barton acting up again are? Maybe not even Barton himself (he seems to lack a bit of self-control!).

 

I don't know what the answer is really, but I am sure that if Barton does sign for us, and repeats any of his previous antics, we should come down on him hard whether he is our player or not. In that way I think we can maintain some sort of moral authority.

[Jaehyun]

As long as his idiotic acts don't affect his and his teammates performances I don't mind. Well to be honest, he's paid to play football, whatever he wants to do out of football is in his rights. Of course stabbing a teammate in the eye with a cigarette is totally out of the question.

But one thing does worry me though, people were angry about Parker sarcastically clapping at the fans, then how would the fans respond to Barton revealing his back-side to them?

[NE5]

As long as his idiotic acts don't affect his and his teammates performances I don't mind. Well to be honest, he's paid to play football, whatever he wants to do out of football is in his rights. Of course stabbing a teammate in the eye with a cigarette is totally out of the question.

But one thing does worry me though, people were angry about Parker sarcastically clapping at the fans, then how would the fans respond to Barton revealing his back-side to them?

 

Basically, if they are consistent in their views [unlikely] every single person who did a u-turn about Craig Bellamy for being a "cancer" [because of what the worst manager in 40 years said about him] they should not want Barton at the club.

 

 

[Guest alex]

Nice to see you aren't still going on about Bellamy anyway Leazes.

[NE5]

Nice to see you aren't still going on about Bellamy anyway Leazes.

 

just a point of view, Alexandra mate, just a point of view. A consistent and relevant one too. Fancy that eh ?

 

 

[Guest alex]

Nice to see you aren't still going on about Bellamy anyway Leazes.

 

just a point of view, Alexandra mate, just a point of view. A consistent and relevant one too. Fancy that eh ?

 

 

I never wanted Bellamy to leave either. I've dealt with the loss though

[NE5]

Nice to see you aren't still going on about Bellamy anyway Leazes.

 

just a point of view, Alexandra mate, just a point of view. A consistent and relevant one too. Fancy that eh ?

 

 

I never wanted Bellamy to leave either. I've dealt with the loss though

 

when we are back in the top 5 then we have dealt with the decision to offload him. And Robert.

 

At any financial cost, of course.

 

 

[Guest philinho]

Like many people have said, if he does the business on the field, what does it matter? If you raise your kids right, they won't look upto someone like Barton.

 

I personally think that he would be a good signing and his passion will definitely help, might even sort some of the lazy, passionless tossers that are in there at the minute.

[Guest alex]

Nice to see you aren't still going on about Bellamy anyway Leazes.

 

just a point of view, Alexandra mate, just a point of view. A consistent and relevant one too. Fancy that eh ?

 

 

I never wanted Bellamy to leave either. I've dealt with the loss though

 

when we are back in the top 5 then we have dealt with the decision to offload him. And Robert.

 

At any financial cost, of course.

 

 

[NE5]

Like many people have said, if he does the business on the field, what does it matter? If you raise your kids right, they won't look upto someone like Barton.

 

I personally think that he would be a good signing and his passion will definitely help, might even sort some of the lazy, passionless tossers that are in there at the minute.

 

Well. This point was made at the time of Bellamy's dust up with Souness, but was rejected by probably the vast majority of people.

 

I think he would be a good signing too, as would the re-purchase of Bellamy, who's passion also motivated other players.

 

As i said, the amount of u-turns are interesting to put it mildly.

 

 

 

[NE5]

Nice to see you aren't still going on about Bellamy anyway Leazes.

 

just a point of view, Alexandra mate, just a point of view. A consistent and relevant one too. Fancy that eh ?

 

 

I never wanted Bellamy to leave either. I've dealt with the loss though

 

when we are back in the top 5 then we have dealt with the decision to offload him. And Robert.

 

At any financial cost, of course.

 

 

 

Well Alex, your mate Gemmil was one who said that fairly often. Amusing isn't it 

 

 

[Guest alex]

Nice to see you aren't still going on about Bellamy anyway Leazes.

 

just a point of view, Alexandra mate, just a point of view. A consistent and relevant one too. Fancy that eh ?

 

 

I never wanted Bellamy to leave either. I've dealt with the loss though

 

when we are back in the top 5 then we have dealt with the decision to offload him. And Robert.

 

At any financial cost, of course.

 

 

 

Well Alex, your mate Gemmil was one who said that fairly often. Amusing isn't it 

 

 

That doesn't even make sense. It was a light-hearted comment anyway. The wink should have been a giveaway.

[NE5]

Nice to see you aren't still going on about Bellamy anyway Leazes.

 

just a point of view, Alexandra mate, just a point of view. A consistent and relevant one too. Fancy that eh ?

 

 

I never wanted Bellamy to leave either. I've dealt with the loss though

 

when we are back in the top 5 then we have dealt with the decision to offload him. And Robert.

 

At any financial cost, of course.

 

 

 

Well Alex, your mate Gemmil was one who said that fairly often. Amusing isn't it 

 

 

That doesn't even make sense. It was a light-hearted comment anyway. The wink should have been a giveaway.

 

so was mine Alex, so was mine.

 

Somewhere there is a vehicle for your hidden talents mate.

 

Except I don't think selling Craig Bellamy for being a "cancer" and accepting another one coming into the club is amusing nor makes any sense whatsoever .....

 

 

[Guest alex]

Nice to see you aren't still going on about Bellamy anyway Leazes.

 

just a point of view, Alexandra mate, just a point of view. A consistent and relevant one too. Fancy that eh ?

 

 

I never wanted Bellamy to leave either. I've dealt with the loss though

 

when we are back in the top 5 then we have dealt with the decision to offload him. And Robert.

 

At any financial cost, of course.

 

 

 

Well Alex, your mate Gemmil was one who said that fairly often. Amusing isn't it 

 

 

That doesn't even make sense. It was a light-hearted comment anyway. The wink should have been a giveaway.

 

so was mine Alex, so was mine.

 

Somewhere there is a vehicle for your hidden talents mate.

 

Except I don't think selling Craig Bellamy for being a "cancer" and accepting another one coming into the club is amusing nor makes any sense whatsoever .....

 

 

What's the last line got to do with me?

[NE5]

Nice to see you aren't still going on about Bellamy anyway Leazes.

 

just a point of view, Alexandra mate, just a point of view. A consistent and relevant one too. Fancy that eh ?

 

 

I never wanted Bellamy to leave either. I've dealt with the loss though

 

when we are back in the top 5 then we have dealt with the decision to offload him. And Robert.

 

At any financial cost, of course.

 

 

 

Well Alex, your mate Gemmil was one who said that fairly often. Amusing isn't it 

 

 

That doesn't even make sense. It was a light-hearted comment anyway. The wink should have been a giveaway.

 

so was mine Alex, so was mine.

 

Somewhere there is a vehicle for your hidden talents mate.

 

Except I don't think selling Craig Bellamy for being a "cancer" and accepting another one coming into the club is amusing nor makes any sense whatsoever .....

 

 

What's the last line got to do with me?

 

whatever.

 

It does happen to be on topic though, being linked to Joey Bartons possible signing.

 

 

 

 

[Guest alex]

Nothing then. Thought not.