is it really so hard?

[Dokko]

I suppose he didn't say anything, but the hype was there, and he generated it one way or another. Those words were put into the papers by his team and people speaking on his behalf. The papers didn't just make it up, i know they do a lot of that, but every one was wording it the same, it had a source, and it came somewhere from him imo.

 

I doubt anything knowingly came from Ashley himself or Mort, as for all the reports sounding the same, well most papers copy one another but put their own 'unique' spin on things.

 

I'm just getting a bit fed up with the lack of a defense.

 

I'm getting more fed up with the knee-jerk reaction to what is clearly a lull in transfer negotiations, than anything else - personally speaking.

 

You can say players are knocking us back, were not offering daft money anymore etc..But truth is nothing major seems to be happening anymore. Unless SA sees Baines & Davies (and the likes of) as last minute deals when others haven't pulled off, i cannot see why we haven't gone for these players. Young, English, and at clubs smaller than us. £6m for Baines & £7m for Davies would be accepted after some player and agent pressure, are these players not good enough for us now? Is Babayaro & Ramage that highly rated?

 

You make it sound so easy, I'm sure WBA have placed a massive fee on Davies' head where as Wigan have already knocked back bids for Baines from the mackems, bid believed to be in the £5m region. Perhaps we just don't have those kind of funds yet, perhaps Big Sam doesn't rate them, perhaps they are overpriced, perhaps we are indeed after them and close to signing them. Who knows. All I know is that the manager and board, in very difficult times, will be doing their best to get in sufficient quality prior to the big-kick off.

 

Were gonna miss the boat even more so, and with the season kicking off not so far away, we are nowhere near ready, still dogged by injuries, still with players on our books that have a negative effect on the club, still lacking a defense and still in the papers for all the wrong reasons. Nothings changed, and the new regime is moving too slowly for my liking in changing this club around. This season is the most important season for NUFC in a long time, every effort needs to be made to push the club on with so many new rivals in place for Euro spots next season, nevermind Champions League. Stand still and you go backwards, this season more so than ever.

 

Rome wasn't built in a day. Since May Big Sam has had to identify new targets, sign 4 of them, look for more, been knocked back, had to change his plans once or twice, try and resolve back-room team positions, end an injury jinx, prepare the team for pre-season, field questions from the media and all of this at a club that has just been taken over, a club that can no longer attract players as easily as it once did due to a change in policy (paying huge wages and transfer fees), not being in Europe and stiff competition from others who are now all flush with money.

 

Perhaps this is the point where we all need to accept reality and not build our hopes up too much or expect too much too soon. The task at hand is a mighty one facing the manager and board. I am prepared to put up with these frustrations as I know in the long-term we will be all the more healthier for it.

 

Of course Ashley could never have happened and Freddy could have giving Big Sam £20m to spend and we'd have all our players signed by now. But we'd be an extra 20m in debt, still fallible to Freddy's mismanagement and because we'd be under massive financial pressure to qualify for Europe, Big Sam himself would be under just as much pressure.

 

Honestly, you can't make the sweeping changes we all want to see enforced over night, be thankful we ARE heading in the right direction. Yes be frustrated with things and yes question certain things, but how anyone can be so downbeat is beyond me.

 

Here's a tip: instead of looking at things from today, look at things from a few years down the line. Tell me you aren't smiling?

 

I am, I'm positively beaming

 

You are right, it is frustration, and looking at the bigger picture we are heading in the right direction, only my fear is this season and how important it is to get ourselves back into Europe, ATM we wont be capable of doing that with the current squad. That will have more impact on us if we fail, players will be even harder to find to come here without European football and we will have to overspend just to get some decent players in capable of doing the job.

 

We need both a quick fix and a long term plan, one or the other wont sort out the mess that is NUFC.

[NE5]

Something is up, i'm starting to think we've been lied too.

 

 

By the papers?

 

Because Ashley hasn't said anything much less promise anything and neither has Mort or the manager for that matter. If you honestly believed what the papers were spouting or rather expected there to be huge sums of money to spend, more fool you. It isn't as straight forward as that.

 

I suppose he didn't say anything, but the hype was there, and he generated it one way or another. Those words were put into the papers by his team and people speaking on his behalf. The papers didn't just make it up, i know they do a lot of that, but every one was wording it the same, it had a source, and it came somewhere from him imo.

 

I'm just getting a bit fed up with the lack of a defense. You can say players are knocking us back, were not offering daft money anymore etc..But truth is nothing major seems to be happening anymore. Unless SA sees Baines & Davies (and the likes of) as last minute deals when others haven't pulled off, i cannot see why we haven't gone for these players. Young, English, and at clubs smaller than us. £6m for Baines & £7m for Davies would be accepted after some player and agent pressure, are these players not good enough for us now? Is Babayaro & Ramage that highly rated?

 

Were gonna miss the boat even more so, and with the season kicking off not so far away, we are nowhere near ready, still dogged by injuries, still with players on our books that have a negative effect on the club, still lacking a defense and still in the papers for all the wrong reasons. Nothings changed, and the new regime is moving too slowly for my liking in changing this club around. This season is the most important season for NUFC in a long time, every effort needs to be made to push the club on with so many new rivals in place for Euro spots next season, nevermind Champions League. Stand still and you go backwards, this season more so than ever.

 

Agreed. At the moment, we are worse off defensively than we were last season.

 

Yesterday's injury to Barton compounds the need for more players, and not just any players, they have to be good players.

 

Ashley is reaching the stage where like it or not he is going to have to release funds, or we could really be in trouble.

 

 

 

[Dokko]

 

 

There are players out there which we can be making moves for though, and were not doing so.

 

SA said something about the new board not really knowing whats going on and that he's missing out on players. Why would he miss out on players with a new board? Surely all they have to do is release funds? Why are they not doing so?

 

Funds must have been given to Allardyce or he wouldn't even be talking to players, it looks like things are stalling at the stage where wages are concerned and I have no idea why that is, maybe we've now got a wage structure or agents are seeing TV money and are going way OTT when trying to negotiate contracts.

 

None of us know.

 

The new TV money could be causing problems. Its probably done us favours with our current squad, the likes of Carr, Babayaro & Dyer don't seem to be on as much inflated wages anymore, and clubs might be willing to match them for the 1st time and take them off us, but its probably hindering us at the same time with new players, especially with the lack of Europe. Saying that though, Tottenham manage to bring in some decent players, and keep even better ones working on a tight wage structure, maybe were looking at the wrong types of players then as well.

 

 

 

 

[Guest Knightrider]

I suppose he didn't say anything, but the hype was there, and he generated it one way or another. Those words were put into the papers by his team and people speaking on his behalf. The papers didn't just make it up, i know they do a lot of that, but every one was wording it the same, it had a source, and it came somewhere from him imo.

 

I doubt anything knowingly came from Ashley himself or Mort, as for all the reports sounding the same, well most papers copy one another but put their own 'unique' spin on things.

 

I'm just getting a bit fed up with the lack of a defense.

 

I'm getting more fed up with the knee-jerk reaction to what is clearly a lull in transfer negotiations, than anything else - personally speaking.

 

You can say players are knocking us back, were not offering daft money anymore etc..But truth is nothing major seems to be happening anymore. Unless SA sees Baines & Davies (and the likes of) as last minute deals when others haven't pulled off, i cannot see why we haven't gone for these players. Young, English, and at clubs smaller than us. £6m for Baines & £7m for Davies would be accepted after some player and agent pressure, are these players not good enough for us now? Is Babayaro & Ramage that highly rated?

 

You make it sound so easy, I'm sure WBA have placed a massive fee on Davies' head where as Wigan have already knocked back bids for Baines from the mackems, bid believed to be in the £5m region. Perhaps we just don't have those kind of funds yet, perhaps Big Sam doesn't rate them, perhaps they are overpriced, perhaps we are indeed after them and close to signing them. Who knows. All I know is that the manager and board, in very difficult times, will be doing their best to get in sufficient quality prior to the big-kick off.

 

Were gonna miss the boat even more so, and with the season kicking off not so far away, we are nowhere near ready, still dogged by injuries, still with players on our books that have a negative effect on the club, still lacking a defense and still in the papers for all the wrong reasons. Nothings changed, and the new regime is moving too slowly for my liking in changing this club around. This season is the most important season for NUFC in a long time, every effort needs to be made to push the club on with so many new rivals in place for Euro spots next season, nevermind Champions League. Stand still and you go backwards, this season more so than ever.

 

Rome wasn't built in a day. Since May Big Sam has had to identify new targets, sign 4 of them, look for more, been knocked back, had to change his plans once or twice, try and resolve back-room team positions, end an injury jinx, prepare the team for pre-season, field questions from the media and all of this at a club that has just been taken over, a club that can no longer attract players as easily as it once did due to a change in policy (paying huge wages and transfer fees), not being in Europe and stiff competition from others who are now all flush with money.

 

Perhaps this is the point where we all need to accept reality and not build our hopes up too much or expect too much too soon. The task at hand is a mighty one facing the manager and board. I am prepared to put up with these frustrations as I know in the long-term we will be all the more healthier for it.

 

Of course Ashley could never have happened and Freddy could have giving Big Sam £20m to spend and we'd have all our players signed by now. But we'd be an extra 20m in debt, still fallible to Freddy's mismanagement and because we'd be under massive financial pressure to qualify for Europe, Big Sam himself would be under just as much pressure.

 

Honestly, you can't make the sweeping changes we all want to see enforced over night, be thankful we ARE heading in the right direction. Yes be frustrated with things and yes question certain things, but how anyone can be so downbeat is beyond me.

 

Here's a tip: instead of looking at things from today, look at things from a few years down the line. Tell me you aren't smiling?

 

I am, I'm positively beaming

 

You are right, it is frustration, and looking at the bigger picture we are heading in the right direction, only my fear is this season and how important it is to get ourselves back into Europe, ATM we wont be capable of doing that with the current squad. That will have more impact on us if we fail, players will be even harder to find to come here without European football and we will have to overspend just to get some decent players in capable of doing the job.

 

We need both a quick fix and a long term plan, one or the other wont sort out the mess that is NUFC.

 

Agreed, it's a balancing act isn't it. We just have to trust the manager's abilities to get the best out of players and work a bit of magic which is why we appointed him. Our squad today is vastly superior to the one he had at Bolton yet they still qualified for Europe, and at one point with a few weeks to go, were right behind Arsenal fighting for 4th spot. Even if all our plans don't come off, there is still a lot there to work with.

[Dokko]

Something is up, i'm starting to think we've been lied too.

 

 

By the papers?

 

Because Ashley hasn't said anything much less promise anything and neither has Mort or the manager for that matter. If you honestly believed what the papers were spouting or rather expected there to be huge sums of money to spend, more fool you. It isn't as straight forward as that.

 

I suppose he didn't say anything, but the hype was there, and he generated it one way or another. Those words were put into the papers by his team and people speaking on his behalf. The papers didn't just make it up, i know they do a lot of that, but every one was wording it the same, it had a source, and it came somewhere from him imo.

 

I'm just getting a bit fed up with the lack of a defense. You can say players are knocking us back, were not offering daft money anymore etc..But truth is nothing major seems to be happening anymore. Unless SA sees Baines & Davies (and the likes of) as last minute deals when others haven't pulled off, i cannot see why we haven't gone for these players. Young, English, and at clubs smaller than us. £6m for Baines & £7m for Davies would be accepted after some player and agent pressure, are these players not good enough for us now? Is Babayaro & Ramage that highly rated?

 

Were gonna miss the boat even more so, and with the season kicking off not so far away, we are nowhere near ready, still dogged by injuries, still with players on our books that have a negative effect on the club, still lacking a defense and still in the papers for all the wrong reasons. Nothings changed, and the new regime is moving too slowly for my liking in changing this club around. This season is the most important season for NUFC in a long time, every effort needs to be made to push the club on with so many new rivals in place for Euro spots next season, nevermind Champions League. Stand still and you go backwards, this season more so than ever.

 

Agreed. At the moment, we are worse off defensively than we were last season.

 

Yesterday's injury to Barton compounds the need for more players, and not just any players, they have to be good players.

 

Ashley is reaching the stage where like it or not he is going to have to release funds, or we could really be in trouble.

 

 

 

 

Yep. No point sticking our head in the sands saying 'ooh we've still got 20 days until the start of the season' or 'chill, we've got 6 weeks until the window closes' because we've seen what happens when that attitude sets in, we miss the mark and are left with half a team terribly unbalanced and lacking direction.

 

Barton's injury is just fuking typical, our star signing of the summer already crocked and with the court date looming over him, Viduka missing the start of the season, Duff out injured, a couple of star strikers with release clauses and 3-4 players going missing for African Nations duty, its not a healthy squad right now. And agreed, the defense is as poor if not worse than last season, not just at the departures, but at the fact some of these players are now known not to be good enough for us to build a squad with. last season some of them used up their last chance.

 

 

[Guest Knightrider]

BTW I will stick my neck out here and say we will sign at least 3 more players, 2 defenders and a midfielder. If we are lucky, we'll get the 5 or so Sam wants. Still time, it only takes a second to sign a signature on a contract.

[Dokko]

I suppose he didn't say anything, but the hype was there, and he generated it one way or another. Those words were put into the papers by his team and people speaking on his behalf. The papers didn't just make it up, i know they do a lot of that, but every one was wording it the same, it had a source, and it came somewhere from him imo.

 

I doubt anything knowingly came from Ashley himself or Mort, as for all the reports sounding the same, well most papers copy one another but put their own 'unique' spin on things.

 

I'm just getting a bit fed up with the lack of a defense.

 

I'm getting more fed up with the knee-jerk reaction to what is clearly a lull in transfer negotiations, than anything else - personally speaking.

 

You can say players are knocking us back, were not offering daft money anymore etc..But truth is nothing major seems to be happening anymore. Unless SA sees Baines & Davies (and the likes of) as last minute deals when others haven't pulled off, i cannot see why we haven't gone for these players. Young, English, and at clubs smaller than us. £6m for Baines & £7m for Davies would be accepted after some player and agent pressure, are these players not good enough for us now? Is Babayaro & Ramage that highly rated?

 

You make it sound so easy, I'm sure WBA have placed a massive fee on Davies' head where as Wigan have already knocked back bids for Baines from the mackems, bid believed to be in the £5m region. Perhaps we just don't have those kind of funds yet, perhaps Big Sam doesn't rate them, perhaps they are overpriced, perhaps we are indeed after them and close to signing them. Who knows. All I know is that the manager and board, in very difficult times, will be doing their best to get in sufficient quality prior to the big-kick off.

 

Were gonna miss the boat even more so, and with the season kicking off not so far away, we are nowhere near ready, still dogged by injuries, still with players on our books that have a negative effect on the club, still lacking a defense and still in the papers for all the wrong reasons. Nothings changed, and the new regime is moving too slowly for my liking in changing this club around. This season is the most important season for NUFC in a long time, every effort needs to be made to push the club on with so many new rivals in place for Euro spots next season, nevermind Champions League. Stand still and you go backwards, this season more so than ever.

 

Rome wasn't built in a day. Since May Big Sam has had to identify new targets, sign 4 of them, look for more, been knocked back, had to change his plans once or twice, try and resolve back-room team positions, end an injury jinx, prepare the team for pre-season, field questions from the media and all of this at a club that has just been taken over, a club that can no longer attract players as easily as it once did due to a change in policy (paying huge wages and transfer fees), not being in Europe and stiff competition from others who are now all flush with money.

 

Perhaps this is the point where we all need to accept reality and not build our hopes up too much or expect too much too soon. The task at hand is a mighty one facing the manager and board. I am prepared to put up with these frustrations as I know in the long-term we will be all the more healthier for it.

 

Of course Ashley could never have happened and Freddy could have giving Big Sam £20m to spend and we'd have all our players signed by now. But we'd be an extra 20m in debt, still fallible to Freddy's mismanagement and because we'd be under massive financial pressure to qualify for Europe, Big Sam himself would be under just as much pressure.

 

Honestly, you can't make the sweeping changes we all want to see enforced over night, be thankful we ARE heading in the right direction. Yes be frustrated with things and yes question certain things, but how anyone can be so downbeat is beyond me.

 

Here's a tip: instead of looking at things from today, look at things from a few years down the line. Tell me you aren't smiling?

 

I am, I'm positively beaming

 

You are right, it is frustration, and looking at the bigger picture we are heading in the right direction, only my fear is this season and how important it is to get ourselves back into Europe, ATM we wont be capable of doing that with the current squad. That will have more impact on us if we fail, players will be even harder to find to come here without European football and we will have to overspend just to get some decent players in capable of doing the job.

 

We need both a quick fix and a long term plan, one or the other wont sort out the mess that is NUFC.

 

Agreed, it's a balancing act isn't it. We just have to trust the manager's abilities to get the best out of players and work a bit of magic which is why we appointed him. Our squad today is vastly superior to the one he had at Bolton yet they still qualified for Europe, and at one point with a few weeks to go, were right behind Arsenal fighting for 4th spot. Even if all our plans don't come off, there is still a lot there to work with.

 

Balancing act it certainly is, and without doubt he has a better quality of players in this squad than at Bolton, but at Bolton when they lost a player to injury, he had another 3 ready to come in and make their mark. We not only don't have a 1st team right now, we don't have a squad to rotate, we don't have a reserve team, and we don't have enough young players, academy or bought in. Lack of depth at all levels right now.

 

For example, Billy Jones & Billy Sharp moved for less than £3m between them. I'd have loved to see those two come here get some real EPL coaching and take a chance. Chelsea do it, Arsenal do it, Manu do it, even tottenham do it. Liverpool have brought in another 8 unkown players this season, some will fail, but one or two might become handy. To be a big club thats what we need right now, players at all levels to succeed, and we need to take chances in the transfer market at the lower end, i'd had hoped that would be part of SA's policy when bringing in new palyers.

[NE5]

BTW I will stick my neck out here and say we will sign at least 3 more players, 2 defenders and a midfielder. If we are lucky, we'll get the 5 or so Sam wants. Still time, it only takes a second to sign a signature on a contract.

 

They have to be good players. As you know, I'm not one of those who thinks big money signings are "trophy" players, they are quality players, full stop.

 

We will not find 3 players good enough for what we want among the 2 or 3m quid bracket, if we are lucky he will find one, if he is very lucky he will get 2, but this is going to take a lot of cash to get us the quality of player that we need, or the quality that we ought to be signing.

 

Whether Ashley is prepared to bankroll this, remains to be seen.

 

 

[Guest Knightrider]

BTW I will stick my neck out here and say we will sign at least 3 more players, 2 defenders and a midfielder. If we are lucky, we'll get the 5 or so Sam wants. Still time, it only takes a second to sign a signature on a contract.

 

They have to be good players. As you know, I'm not one of those who thinks big money signings are "trophy" players, they are quality players, full stop.

 

We will not find 3 players good enough for what we want among the 2 or 3m quid bracket, if we are lucky he will find one, if he is very lucky he will get 2, but this is going to take a lot of cash to get us the quality of player that we need, or the quality that we ought to be signing.

 

Whether Ashley is prepared to bankroll this, remains to be seen.

 

 

 

I'm not so sure, this Norway defender we are apparently looking at for example could turn out to be our version of Melburg, or Hyypia (or another Haim) - we just don't know. Obviously I'd rather see players in that I know are quality but this is where I trust the manager, to get in good players regardless of their cost or name. If we have to shop at that level, then I trust the manager 100%.

[Dokko]

BTW I will stick my neck out here and say we will sign at least 3 more players, 2 defenders and a midfielder. If we are lucky, we'll get the 5 or so Sam wants. Still time, it only takes a second to sign a signature on a contract.

 

They have to be good players. As you know, I'm not one of those who thinks big money signings are "trophy" players, they are quality players, full stop.

 

We will not find 3 players good enough for what we want among the 2 or 3m quid bracket, if we are lucky he will find one, if he is very lucky he will get 2, but this is going to take a lot of cash to get us the quality of player that we need, or the quality that we ought to be signing.

 

Whether Ashley is prepared to bankroll this, remains to be seen.

 

 

 

Whats frustrating is that we've basically got a clean sheet at the back and the ability to start again, right from the bottom up. We can live with the strikers quite easily, mid is a bit patchy, but overall barring any major injuries we can cope again. At the back there is nothing apart from Taylor. Rozy is unkown, we've no idea what he'll be like, Geremi is another good squad player. If we spent £25-30m on defenders, and that alone, we could build a CL quality defense. Its worth paying over the odds right now for the right player because the difference they'll make to next season will be huge. Its what i'd do. Then next season's money can go on remodeling the mid or attack if needed, while the defense just had a years experience together and will become even better for next.

 

Is that asking too much right now? I don't think it is, and its what i expected. Perfect time to do it (apart from it would be easier and cheaper if we had Europe) maybe they are, and its just not pulling off, but the longer we leave it, the more expensive it will become and we'll end up with Average players which we've done with for the last several season at the back, just different names, and the calamity known in the media and the stands as the defense of NUFC lives on. That's my fear.

[Mick]

 

Agreed. At the moment, we are worse off defensively than we were last season.

 

Yesterday's injury to Barton compounds the need for more players, and not just any players, they have to be good players.

 

Ashley is reaching the stage where like it or not he is going to have to release funds, or we could really be in trouble.

 

 

 

 

Being worse off defensively than last year is debatable, Bramble will not grace/disgrace our defence this season, Moore has gone but hardly kicked a ball and we didn't have Gooch this time last year.

 

On the other hand we've brought in a replacement for Bramble although we don't know how well he'll fit in but the signs look good so far.  On top of that we're not relying on Carr on the right as Nobby has proven since this time last year that he can do a job on the right side of our defence and we have Geremi who can also play in that position.  We've also got the kids who have more experience than this time last year and we have a manager who will probably see that Edgar will make a much better left back than Huntington.

 

I would say we are on a par with this time last year with our defence, at worst.

[Ikon]

I have not read through hole this thread. But what is it that takes such a long time? Is it the board going through everything in the club and trying to sort out stuff that hasn't been done correctly or the best way? is that why they wont release any funds? Or have they released a transfer kitty for Big Sam to spend just that we haven't been able to get the players signed? This coming week and next week will truly decide much on us having a good season or a not so good.

 

I understand that the new board has to look into things in the club before splashing massive cash here and there, but it's taking too much time if that's the reason why we are not getting any new players in...

 

Im impatient but still optimistic about the future. But i dont want to believe in good things too much as i have been disappointed about things so many times before as we all fans have..

[NE5]

BTW I will stick my neck out here and say we will sign at least 3 more players, 2 defenders and a midfielder. If we are lucky, we'll get the 5 or so Sam wants. Still time, it only takes a second to sign a signature on a contract.

 

They have to be good players. As you know, I'm not one of those who thinks big money signings are "trophy" players, they are quality players, full stop.

 

We will not find 3 players good enough for what we want among the 2 or 3m quid bracket, if we are lucky he will find one, if he is very lucky he will get 2, but this is going to take a lot of cash to get us the quality of player that we need, or the quality that we ought to be signing.

 

Whether Ashley is prepared to bankroll this, remains to be seen.

 

 

 

I'm not so sure, this Norway defender we are apparently looking at for example could turn out to be our version of Melburg, or Hyypia (or another Haim) - we just don't know. Obviously I'd rather see players in that I know are quality but this is where I trust the manager, to get in good players regardless of their cost or name. If we have to shop at that level, then I trust the manager 100%.

 

I trust Allardyce too, so far he has bought players that we needed to make us more consistent and strong throgh the middle of the team eg Viduka, Barton and a central defender. However, Viduka and Barton are going to miss the start of the season, and Rozenhal is an unknown quantity.

 

In all probability he could make a couple of astute signings for good fees, but if you are seriously ambitious, there comes a point where the big money and the quality player has to come into the club, these are your front players usually. You simply won't be successful if you don't do this. I don't agree that refusing to pay the money is "progress in the right direction", its progress in the wrong direction. The top players, the ones that will cost big bucks, the ones that all the other winning clubs also want, will simply go somewhere else.

 

 

[Guest Knightrider]

 

Agreed. At the moment, we are worse off defensively than we were last season.

 

Yesterday's injury to Barton compounds the need for more players, and not just any players, they have to be good players.

 

Ashley is reaching the stage where like it or not he is going to have to release funds, or we could really be in trouble.

 

 

 

 

Being worse off defensively than last year is debatable, Bramble will not grace/disgrace our defence this season, Moore has gone but hardly kicked a ball and we didn't have Gooch this time last year.

 

On the other hand we've brought in a replacement for Bramble although we don't know how well he'll fit in but the signs look good so far.  On top of that we're not relying on Carr on the right as Nobby has proven since this time last year that he can do a job on the right side of our defence and we have Geremi who can also play in that position.  We've also got the kids who have more experience than this time last year and we have a manager who will probably see that Edgar will make a much better left back than Huntington.

 

I would say we are on a par with this time last year with our defence, at worst.

 

Good post and on that basis I'd say we are even, but up on the fact we now have a clued up manager in charge. I understand what NE5 is getting at though, we do need defenders.

[Guest Knightrider]

BTW canny thread this, much better than the baseless speculation and transfer talk, people are actually trying to work through some of the problems facing the club and asking whether things can be better done to improve that, in an intelligent manner. Enjoying it thus far. Cheers

[Guest Knightrider]

BTW I will stick my neck out here and say we will sign at least 3 more players, 2 defenders and a midfielder. If we are lucky, we'll get the 5 or so Sam wants. Still time, it only takes a second to sign a signature on a contract.

 

They have to be good players. As you know, I'm not one of those who thinks big money signings are "trophy" players, they are quality players, full stop.

 

We will not find 3 players good enough for what we want among the 2 or 3m quid bracket, if we are lucky he will find one, if he is very lucky he will get 2, but this is going to take a lot of cash to get us the quality of player that we need, or the quality that we ought to be signing.

 

Whether Ashley is prepared to bankroll this, remains to be seen.

 

 

 

I'm not so sure, this Norway defender we are apparently looking at for example could turn out to be our version of Melburg, or Hyypia (or another Haim) - we just don't know. Obviously I'd rather see players in that I know are quality but this is where I trust the manager, to get in good players regardless of their cost or name. If we have to shop at that level, then I trust the manager 100%.

 

I trust Allardyce too, so far he has bought players that we needed to make us more consistent and strong throgh the middle of the team eg Viduka, Barton and a central defender. However, Viduka and Barton are going to miss the start of the season, and Rozenhal is an unknown quantity.

 

In all probability he could make a couple of astute signings for good fees, but if you are seriously ambitious, there comes a point where the big money and the quality player has to come into the club, these are your front players usually. You simply won't be successful if you don't do this. I don't agree that refusing to pay the money is "progress in the right direction", its progress in the wrong direction. The top players, the ones that will cost big bucks, the ones that all the other winning clubs also want, will simply go somewhere else.

 

 

 

Again it's a balancing act isn't it. We won't get into CL places if we don't sign quality players, but quality players are hard to sign when you're not a CL team, and those that do want to join such teams usually insist on clauses, are here purely for the money, or whose careers have stalled. I'd far rather we brought in good players like your Vidukas and build from there, adding to those players with astute hungry players with their whole careers ahead of them and build that way, so we can maintain any success.

[NE5]

BTW I will stick my neck out here and say we will sign at least 3 more players, 2 defenders and a midfielder. If we are lucky, we'll get the 5 or so Sam wants. Still time, it only takes a second to sign a signature on a contract.

 

They have to be good players. As you know, I'm not one of those who thinks big money signings are "trophy" players, they are quality players, full stop.

 

We will not find 3 players good enough for what we want among the 2 or 3m quid bracket, if we are lucky he will find one, if he is very lucky he will get 2, but this is going to take a lot of cash to get us the quality of player that we need, or the quality that we ought to be signing.

 

Whether Ashley is prepared to bankroll this, remains to be seen.

 

 

 

I'm not so sure, this Norway defender we are apparently looking at for example could turn out to be our version of Melburg, or Hyypia (or another Haim) - we just don't know. Obviously I'd rather see players in that I know are quality but this is where I trust the manager, to get in good players regardless of their cost or name. If we have to shop at that level, then I trust the manager 100%.

 

I trust Allardyce too, so far he has bought players that we needed to make us more consistent and strong throgh the middle of the team eg Viduka, Barton and a central defender. However, Viduka and Barton are going to miss the start of the season, and Rozenhal is an unknown quantity.

 

In all probability he could make a couple of astute signings for good fees, but if you are seriously ambitious, there comes a point where the big money and the quality player has to come into the club, these are your front players usually. You simply won't be successful if you don't do this. I don't agree that refusing to pay the money is "progress in the right direction", its progress in the wrong direction. The top players, the ones that will cost big bucks, the ones that all the other winning clubs also want, will simply go somewhere else.

 

 

 

Again it's a balancing act isn't it. We won't get into CL places if we don't sign quality players, but quality players are hard to sign when you're not a CL team, and those that do want to join such teams usually insist on clauses, are here purely for the money, or whose careers have stalled. I'd far rather we brought in good players like your Vidukas and build from there, adding to those players with astute hungry players with their whole careers ahead of them and build that way, so we can maintain any success.

 

........ and in THAT phrase, is the key to success and good buying

 

 

[Baggio]

The problem this club has had in the past is that everything has been with a view of the short term, if Ashley wants to make a success of this club he's going to have to invest in the playing side now and sort out a long term plan on how this club can remain successful in the future too.

 

One way of doing this is looking into and improving our youth set up, it's an area that's been ignored over the years but we've finally started producing a few players capable of making it in the Premiership, something we haven't done since the days of Watson, Howey and Elliott. The area of the club is quite good as young players only have a choice of 3 clubs to choose from, we need to make it so every young player wants to join us instead of Sunderland and Boro and the way to do that is to invest in training facilities for the youth players.

 

Another thing we should look at is bringing in a DOF or a European youth scout to search for the top young talent in Europe and get them to come to us at a young age, other clubs seem to be sitting up and taking notice of the way Arsenal have been doing business over the past few years and looking at exploring the market themselves, both Liverpool and Spurs have invested in top young players over the past 12 months and it's something we should be looking at too.

 

The stadium expansion idea is a good one but we'll need a better team on the pitch before we can attract gates of 60,000 every week, other than that he'll have to look at marketing the club overseas which will be easier if he can get us into the CL, until then his idea of a "World class signing" will certainly turn heads similar to what the MSL are trying to do with Beckham, having a player like that will also make it easier for us to attract other top quality players to the area.

 

The most important thing is an investment in the playing staff now though or we will be in danger of dropping off the pace from the Uefa cup teams, let alone the big 4.

[Dokko]

The problem this club has had in the past is that everything has been with a view of the short term, if Ashley wants to make a success of this club he's going to have to invest in the playing side now and sort out a long term plan on how this club can remain successful in the future too.

 

One way of doing this is looking into and improving our youth set up, it's an area that's been ignored over the years but we've finally started producing a few players capable of making it in the Premiership, something we haven't done since the days of Watson, Howey and Elliott. The area of the club is quite good as young players only have a choice of 3 clubs to choose from, we need to make it so every young player wants to join us instead of Sunderland and Boro and the way to do that is to invest in training facilities for the youth players.

 

Another thing we should look at is bringing in a DOF or a European youth scout to search for the top young talent in Europe and get them to come to us at a young age, other clubs seem to be sitting up and taking notice of the way Arsenal have been doing business over the past few years and looking at exploring the market themselves, both Liverpool and Spurs have invested in top young players over the past 12 months and it's something we should be looking at too.

 

The stadium expansion idea is a good one but we'll need a better team on the pitch before we can attract gates of 60,000 every week, other than that he'll have to look at marketing the club overseas which will be easier if he can get us into the CL, until then his idea of a "World class signing" will certainly turn heads similar to what the MSL are trying to do with Beckham, having a player like that will also make it easier for us to attract other top quality players to the area.

 

The most important thing is an investment in the playing staff now though or we will be in danger of dropping off the pace from the Uefa cup teams, let alone the big 4.

 

In 110% agreement with that. 

 

If that's how the new board are looking at the club then i'd be delighted. We desperately need a DOF and some more experience on the board since were a bit short up there right now. Again same with playing staff but also backroom staff. I like the war room idea, but its no good if its going to be 'filled' with Terry Mac & Lee Clark! 

 

 

[Guest Knightrider]

The problem this club has had in the past is that everything has been with a view of the short term, if Ashley wants to make a success of this club he's going to have to invest in the playing side now and sort out a long term plan on how this club can remain successful in the future too.

 

One way of doing this is looking into and improving our youth set up, it's an area that's been ignored over the years but we've finally started producing a few players capable of making it in the Premiership, something we haven't done since the days of Watson, Howey and Elliott. The area of the club is quite good as young players only have a choice of 3 clubs to choose from, we need to make it so every young player wants to join us instead of Sunderland and Boro and the way to do that is to invest in training facilities for the youth players.

 

Another thing we should look at is bringing in a DOF or a European youth scout to search for the top young talent in Europe and get them to come to us at a young age, other clubs seem to be sitting up and taking notice of the way Arsenal have been doing business over the past few years and looking at exploring the market themselves, both Liverpool and Spurs have invested in top young players over the past 12 months and it's something we should be looking at too.

 

The stadium expansion idea is a good one but we'll need a better team on the pitch before we can attract gates of 60,000 every week, other than that he'll have to look at marketing the club overseas which will be easier if he can get us into the CL, until then his idea of a "World class signing" will certainly turn heads similar to what the MSL are trying to do with Beckham, having a player like that will also make it easier for us to attract other top quality players to the area.

 

The most important thing is an investment in the playing staff now though or we will be in danger of dropping off the pace from the Uefa cup teams, let alone the big 4.

 

Good post Baggio, however I disagree with investing in more facilities for kids  - what they need is better coaches, and I don't mean coaches who can put on a range of training drills while blindfolded, but coaches who understand kids, who can free them from any shackles so their flair, technique and ability shines through and not their physical prowess.

 

We already have fully qualified coaches and world-class facilities, no, it is the whole approach to youth development that is wrong and needs to change, not the qualification of coaches or the facilities. Other than that I think you've raised some excellent points. 

[ohmelads]

No its not, it comes from experience of running a business with revenues of over £300m. It comes from understanding business and how you invest money. Call it 'first principles' if you want.

 

Not sure what the f*** you are on about? If its impossible to break to the top 4 because they have so much more money than us (thats an assumption if you want to focus on those) then we are in a much better position than having Shepherd on board, if this is about the size of Ashley's wealth in relation to other clubs. That really doesnt make any sense to me at all.

 

You seem to fail to realise that the brand is what drives demand for club related products and the eventual broadband HD services that i've been banging on about. So by not changing stuff on the pitch that much, he wont change the brand that much and he wont generate extra demand for products. You tell me to 'take a look' at his area of business expertise as that is a short-cut to not explaining how he would achieve all this without investing in the most important element of the business.

 

Try anwsering the rest of my post too, thats a little harder to work out.

 

I couldn't be arsed discussing speculative figures, what's the point? You haven't worked it out yourself, you've just thrown up some random figures. You seem confident over what Ashley's business plans are, yet you still haven't come out with them other than vague suggestions he'll invest some money - we all know that. Of course a club which performs well on the pitch is more marketable than one which doesn't. I didn't fail to realise that, it would have been stating the bleeding obvious. I have no idea about Ashley's plans and you certainly don't either. He's invested a lot but he could make that back the day he sells up, you make it sound like his money has gone down a black hole! Indeed he has inherited around £80M debt and I do think he intends to improve the club on the pitch and off it - this is all a given! You don't need to explain it all over again, it's blindingly obvious. What is in discussion and what none of us know is to what extent Ashley is prepared to speculate to accumulate, ie release funds for players who may or may not perform.

 

Wanting to do as well as you can is a given, how much money you're prepared to pump into a club is another matter entirely. Which one are we discussing here?

 

I'm not saying Ashley won't invest, I'm rejecting this automatic assumption many on here have made that he will invest vast sums of money despite knowing nothing about him or his intentions. He might, he might not. I haven't even taken a side in this debate, I've just suggested that a club can make a profit by maintaining a decent league position. You've jumped on your high horse and then said you don't even know what I'm going on about.

[Baggio]

The problem this club has had in the past is that everything has been with a view of the short term, if Ashley wants to make a success of this club he's going to have to invest in the playing side now and sort out a long term plan on how this club can remain successful in the future too.

 

One way of doing this is looking into and improving our youth set up, it's an area that's been ignored over the years but we've finally started producing a few players capable of making it in the Premiership, something we haven't done since the days of Watson, Howey and Elliott. The area of the club is quite good as young players only have a choice of 3 clubs to choose from, we need to make it so every young player wants to join us instead of Sunderland and Boro and the way to do that is to invest in training facilities for the youth players.

 

Another thing we should look at is bringing in a DOF or a European youth scout to search for the top young talent in Europe and get them to come to us at a young age, other clubs seem to be sitting up and taking notice of the way Arsenal have been doing business over the past few years and looking at exploring the market themselves, both Liverpool and Spurs have invested in top young players over the past 12 months and it's something we should be looking at too.

 

The stadium expansion idea is a good one but we'll need a better team on the pitch before we can attract gates of 60,000 every week, other than that he'll have to look at marketing the club overseas which will be easier if he can get us into the CL, until then his idea of a "World class signing" will certainly turn heads similar to what the MSL are trying to do with Beckham, having a player like that will also make it easier for us to attract other top quality players to the area.

 

The most important thing is an investment in the playing staff now though or we will be in danger of dropping off the pace from the Uefa cup teams, let alone the big 4.

 

Good post Baggio, however I disagree with investing in more facilities for kids  - what they need is better coaches, and I don't mean coaches who can put on a range of training drills while blindfolded, but coaches who understand kids, who can free them from any shackles so their flair, technique and ability shines through and not their physical prowess.

 

We already have fully qualified coaches and world-class facilities, no, it is the whole approach to youth development that is wrong and needs to change, not the qualification of coaches or the facilities. Other than that I think you've raised some excellent points. 

 

I've never been to the youth training ground so I can't comment, but you often hear how a club has a "World class" this and that but it rarely turns out to be the case, an example is how our training ground is supposed to be excellent only to be rubbished by Allardyce as soon as he got here, I suppose it's what you're used to.

 

To get someone in here who has an idea about youth development would be a big step forward for the club, the club has shared a good relationship with other clubs around Europe so I can't see why we wouldn't be allowed to theirs and see how they've gone about it, you're right in a way that the coaching of the youth players is important but the way to attract young lads over the likes of Boro is to have excellent facilities too.

 

 

[ChezGiven]

No its not, it comes from experience of running a business with revenues of over £300m. It comes from understanding business and how you invest money. Call it 'first principles' if you want.

 

Not sure what the f*** you are on about? If its impossible to break to the top 4 because they have so much more money than us (thats an assumption if you want to focus on those) then we are in a much better position than having Shepherd on board, if this is about the size of Ashley's wealth in relation to other clubs. That really doesnt make any sense to me at all.

 

You seem to fail to realise that the brand is what drives demand for club related products and the eventual broadband HD services that i've been banging on about. So by not changing stuff on the pitch that much, he wont change the brand that much and he wont generate extra demand for products. You tell me to 'take a look' at his area of business expertise as that is a short-cut to not explaining how he would achieve all this without investing in the most important element of the business.

 

Try anwsering the rest of my post too, thats a little harder to work out.

 

I couldn't be arsed discussing speculative figures, what's the point? You haven't worked it out yourself, you've just thrown up some random figures. You seem confident over what Ashley's business plans are, yet you still haven't come out with them other than vague suggestions he'll invest some money - we all know that. Of course a club which performs well on the pitch is more marketable than one which doesn't. I didn't fail to realise that, it would have been stating the bleeding obvious. I have no idea about Ashley's plans and you certainly don't either. He's invested a lot but he could make that back the day he sells up, you make it sound like his money has gone down a black hole! Indeed he has inherited around £80M debt and I do think he intends to improve the club on the pitch and off it - this is all a given! You don't need to explain it all over again, it's blindingly obvious. What is in discussion and what none of us know is to what extent Ashley is prepared to speculate to accumulate, ie release funds for players who may or may not perform.

 

Wanting to do as well as you can is a given, how much money you're prepared to pump into a club is another matter entirely. Which one are we discussing here?

 

Hang on, your premise was that he might not back the manager wasnt it? The likelihood of of this happening is what i am discussing.

 

The figures, £133m buying price, £80m debt, last years profit level and total revenues for the club are all known publicly. How is using those numbers to say he would have been better off putting his money into a bank account, if he is not going to invest in the mess we are in to sort it out, me being speculative? Thats called addressing the facts and the point in discussion.

 

By thinking about the numbers you might develop some insight into your new question, the extent to which Ashley will invest. For me, the response to that is that we will have more £££s than we previously did and will have to at least match the spending of our nearest competitors to keep them as that.

 

You said "For all we know, Ashley might well know this and see football as an ever growing industry where he can invest modest sums to keep the club at a reasonable level high enough to make money from TV rights, merchandising etc"

 

So, with Chelsea, Liverpool, Manu, Arse, Tottenham, Man City, West Ham, Portsmouth all investing heavily and us investing modestly, we are going to tick along and make a profit big enough to justify firstly his initial investments, then all these modest ones?? The £30m extra year from TV will be wiped out by player wage inflation in how many years? Where will the growth in demand for all these merchandise deals come? Without at least matching the investments of other clubs we wont even float in the same spot.

 

The likelihood of Ashley inversting heavily into the club is greater than the likelihood of him not. 

 

 

[ohmelads]

Hang on, your premise was that he might not back the manager wasnt it? The likelihood of of this happening is what i am discussing.

 

The figures, £133m buying price, £80m debt, last years profit level and total revenues for the club are all known publicly. How is using those numbers to say he would have been better off putting his money into a bank account, if he is not going to invest in the mess we are in to sort it out, me being speculative? Thats called addressing the facts and the point in discussion.

 

By thinking about the numbers you might develop some insight into your new question, the extent to which Ashley will invest. For me, the response to that is that we will have more £££s than we previously did and will have to at least match the spending of our nearest competitors to keep them as that.

 

You said "For all we know, Ashley might well know this and see football as an ever growing industry where he can invest modest sums to keep the club at a reasonable level high enough to make money from TV rights, merchandising etc"

 

So, with Chelsea, Liverpool, Manu, Arse, Tottenham, Man City, West Ham, Portsmouth all investing heavily and us investing modestly, we are going to tick along and make a profit big enough to justify firstly his initial investments, then all these modest ones?? The £30m extra year from TV will be wiped out by player wage inflation in how many years? Where will the growth in demand for all these merchandise deals come? Without at least matching the investments of other clubs we wont even float in the same spot.

 

The likelihood of Ashley inversting heavily into the club is greater than the likelihood of him not.

 

Well we agree on some things, we won't stay where we are without investment and he obviously bought the club in order to invest and ultimately make profit through a team which performs better on the pitch. My original point is that we'll have to wait and see just how ambitious Ashley actually is. Assuming we do progress which, with investment I think we will, it's inevitable we'll reach a plateau beyond which we'll need serious investment and good management to go further. I'm talking about breaking the stranglehold of the top 4 and whether Ashley is prepared to try and fund that further down the line. I do believe that with regular top 6 football and a well run business he could gradually be onto a tidy profit with the growth of worldwide merchandising and TV rights. He's clearly not alone in thinking this is a good time to be investing in football, plenty of other owners are doing it. My gut feeling is this takeover is good news if for no other reason than the fact his personal wealth blows Shepherd out of the water, but I'd describe myself as cautiously optimistic as I have no idea what his long term plans are or just how far he's prepared to risk in order to take this club up a level and compete with the big boys.

[Parky]

No its not, it comes from experience of running a business with revenues of over £300m. It comes from understanding business and how you invest money. Call it 'first principles' if you want.

 

Not sure what the f*** you are on about? If its impossible to break to the top 4 because they have so much more money than us (thats an assumption if you want to focus on those) then we are in a much better position than having Shepherd on board, if this is about the size of Ashley's wealth in relation to other clubs. That really doesnt make any sense to me at all.

 

You seem to fail to realise that the brand is what drives demand for club related products and the eventual broadband HD services that i've been banging on about. So by not changing stuff on the pitch that much, he wont change the brand that much and he wont generate extra demand for products. You tell me to 'take a look' at his area of business expertise as that is a short-cut to not explaining how he would achieve all this without investing in the most important element of the business.

 

Try anwsering the rest of my post too, thats a little harder to work out.

 

I couldn't be arsed discussing speculative figures, what's the point? You haven't worked it out yourself, you've just thrown up some random figures. You seem confident over what Ashley's business plans are, yet you still haven't come out with them other than vague suggestions he'll invest some money - we all know that. Of course a club which performs well on the pitch is more marketable than one which doesn't. I didn't fail to realise that, it would have been stating the bleeding obvious. I have no idea about Ashley's plans and you certainly don't either. He's invested a lot but he could make that back the day he sells up, you make it sound like his money has gone down a black hole! Indeed he has inherited around £80M debt and I do think he intends to improve the club on the pitch and off it - this is all a given! You don't need to explain it all over again, it's blindingly obvious. What is in discussion and what none of us know is to what extent Ashley is prepared to speculate to accumulate, ie release funds for players who may or may not perform.

 

Wanting to do as well as you can is a given, how much money you're prepared to pump into a club is another matter entirely. Which one are we discussing here?

 

Hang on, your premise was that he might not back the manager wasnt it? The likelihood of of this happening is what i am discussing.

 

The figures, £133m buying price, £80m debt, last years profit level and total revenues for the club are all known publicly. How is using those numbers to say he would have been better off putting his money into a bank account, if he is not going to invest in the mess we are in to sort it out, me being speculative? Thats called addressing the facts and the point in discussion.

 

By thinking about the numbers you might develop some insight into your new question, the extent to which Ashley will invest. For me, the response to that is that we will have more £££s than we previously did and will have to at least match the spending of our nearest competitors to keep them as that.

 

You said "For all we know, Ashley might well know this and see football as an ever growing industry where he can invest modest sums to keep the club at a reasonable level high enough to make money from TV rights, merchandising etc"

 

So, with Chelsea, Liverpool, Manu, Arse, Tottenham, Man City, West Ham, Portsmouth all investing heavily and us investing modestly, we are going to tick along and make a profit big enough to justify firstly his initial investments, then all these modest ones?? The £30m extra year from TV will be wiped out by player wage inflation in how many years? Where will the growth in demand for all these merchandise deals come? Without at least matching the investments of other clubs we wont even float in the same spot.

 

The likelihood of Ashley inversting heavily into the club is greater than the likelihood of him not. 

 

 

 

 

I'd go as far as to say he was 'locked in' to investing.