Bad Mongo

i was speaking to a mackem at work today and he came up with the point that had wise been the manager and keegan the DoF people would still have backed keegan and had they brought in robinho and kaka behind his back he'd have said nowt.

But none of this happened, so what was the point again?

My confidence in him was lost long before this episode, he's been questionable since he's got here. Nice to see people waking up and smelling the coffee rather than the bullshit he's been spoon feeding the fans since he got here.

Exactly. I was optimistic myself, based on the sounds he made, but it's clear to me now that he's a fraud. He hasn't delivered on any promise that matters.

Well his decision to sack Allardyce was correct, that's all I'm saying.  And whether or not Keegan was 'forced out' we don't know.  Seems it takes a lot less to force Keegan out than might be ideal.

 

Also, I think that a manager leaving because he doesn't agree with your structure and long term plan for the club is not as bad as just hiring an endless string of big name managers, letting them run the club into the ground with reckless spending, then getting rid of them one-by-one.

 

We've all seen that the old way can't deliver consistent progress.

What long term plan? Ashley has failed to deliver on his short term plan. How is he going to fulfil his long term plan if he can't even do that? We were supposed to build on the squad weren't we? Yes, we were. We were supposed to invest in new players? Yes. But the investment is negative, and we haven't added a single body to the squad.

 

The only possible reason to keep faith in Ashley's ambitions for the club is wishful thinking. He hasn't delivered, and there's no reason to believe he ever will.

Yes, he's only sacked one manager, Allardyce. There is only a media circus now because Keegan walked out and the way the fans have reacted. Until then he was keeping fairly quiet wasn't he?

He's only sacked one manager because he's only been here for a year. He's also forced another one out. How you can claim he's any better with regards to managers is a huge mystery, because the evidence against it is staggering, and the evidence for it is absolutely non-existant.

Imagining what Terry Mac's backroom staff might consist of.

 

It's probably just a regular walking stick. He's an old man, but no magician.

 

The way they have lied to the fans isn't wrong because they were lying, but because of the way it was lied?

 

The lying has nothing to do with the system if I'm right in thinking HTT is on about the DOF, if he's not then I've picked it up wrong. 

 

It does seem to be part of the system, though, with the statements that Wise's position was to bring in young players for the academy and report to Keegan, the statements from the owner that Keegan was the one who decided upon which players to bring in, and further that there would be investments to bring in more players, etc. In fact, the lies should be investigated as false advertising: people have bought season tickets under the assumption that Ashley was telling the truth.

 

But sure, my comment was off target.

I'm not sure it's such a fantastic long term plan to persist in selling your best players to better clubs.

That doesn't mean that what the club was trying to do was wrong, it's the way that they've tried to do it where it falls down.  If the scouts/DOF and the others reported to Keegan then it wouldn't have been a problem.

 

The way they have lied to the fans isn't wrong because they were lying, but because of the way it was lied?

That is the Arsenal route in both parts in reality.

No, the difference is that Arsenal are aiming for success.

We're not going down the Arsenal route. How about splitting the second option in two parts: Arsenal - buying young talent in order to create a great team; Us - buying cheap foreigners with potentially great resale value.

"Then Dennis wise appointed out of the blue which has alarm bells ringing in the media and amongst some fans" -- there's nothing there about Wise's appointment being a surprise for Keegan, Indi. It's about the fans and the media.

thats the same "source" that said keegan wanted those 4 superstars though". it wouldn't tie in with all the other evidence about our buget this window. its not impossible that its untrue, but unlikely.

Considering the ridiculous official statement from the club last night, it wouldn't surprise me all that much if the board's attempt at character assassination scored yet another own goal in admitting the real transfer budget was far below what we were led to expect. I don't think they're telling the truth, but I believe the source to be Ashley or Llambias.

The wow signing was a lie.

i think thats more paper bullshit. doesnt tie in with going for modric does it.

It's attributed to someone claimed to be "one of the directors", though. Surely they would call him "a source close to the club" if they just made it up.

No, I am pointing out that it is specifically wrong for people to claim that Keegan had zero idea of the structure he was a part of. Nothing more nothing less.

 

I have not commented on whether Keegan was above or below Wise, that's an invention on your and some other's parts and shows that your ability to be rational has evaporated due to your passionate support of Keegan.

 

All I have been trying to do throughout this thread is attempt to get people to think about the situation logically and hold a balanced view. As the majority have totally bought into the Keegan is totally in the right, the board is totally in the wrong side of the argument that has necessitated asking questions of them in the main. The response of you and others like unbelievable! has been to ignore the fact that I have stated many times that I believe everyone to be at fault and label me as some kind of Ashley apologist, this is a somewhat immature thing to do and is reflected in the petty way you are questioning how old I am. For your information, the answer is almost certainly older than you, not that it's in any way relevant, other than to show that you're unable to have an adult argument without incorrectly and arrogantly assuming that anyone who disagrees with you must be a child. Irony is one of the things that amuses me the most on here so thanks for that, you've really cheered me up with that one.

 

That's about as much of a rise as you're going to get out of me, so I hope you enjoyed it.

Your example can't possibly show "logically" that Keegan knew precisely what kind of structure he was part of (then Wise reported to him, now he should report to Wise: those are two different structures). I'm showing that logically, your so-called "logic" is what in logic is called a non-sequitur. I questioned your age because, for all your talk of logic,  if you were 16 or less, you might be excused. Logic isn't what you think it is.

 

If your profile is correct, and you're 30, then there's no excuse for your bullshitting. Also, you're still younger than me.

How does he feel about being a cult football player for purely linguistic reasons?

Basically this Arsenal analogy they are parading is completely vacuous or a con.

 

That's what I've said, they're trying to make us into another Spurs, not Arsenal. Get in a new manager, promise some ambition, get in a couple of exciting foreigners on the cheap, sell season tickets, and sell whichever players you can get most money from.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if this is a result of Ashley betting against his mate Kemsley that he could make any football club profitable.

They did, but they also sold two of their best players.

Do Keegan's knights have a rebuttal for the claim that KK refused to work co-operatively with the acquisition team? Consider the Smith and Barton rumours - Keegan apparently (reluctantly) said they could be sold if they were replaced, but claimed Xisco and Gonzalez were not adequate replacements. To me, that demonstrates the acquisition team trying to accomodate Keegan who in return offered only intrastringence, recalcitrance and pure pig-headedness.

If Xisco and Nacho were Smith's and Barton's replacement, we would have replaced eight players leaving with six new players, all while not getting that defender and midfielder we were supposed to get.

You, Jonnypd and him, that's 3 people, counting is obviously not your strong point eh? Also, those 3 people have not pointed out any flaw in my logic, they totally missed the entire point of my logic, something you are obviously an expert at.

 

I've explained it for you a number of times now, if you're incapable of understanding it then I'm sorry for you.

 

Keep fishing though, you never know, I might just bite in the end, but don't count on it.

 

Pointing out flaws in your logic is exactly what we've been doing: You claim Keegan knew what he was getting into when what he and the club stated Dennis Wise would work under him (X), and what he was getting into was that he would work under Wise (Y). Your claim is that X = Y when clearly X  = !Y, ergo X != Y. That's the flaw in your logic, and if you can't see it, you're incapable of using logic at all. How old are you?

I will humour you though by explaining why I posted what I posted. In that second article Keegan is quoted as saying that he knew about the DOF situation , that he knew it was Dennis Wise, that he apparently respected Wise and thought he would do a good job. These revelations - well to some of "us" anyway - should shatter the popular delusions that KK had no idea what he was getting himself into and must have been lied to from the start. The reason I point that out is that everyone is pointing to the discrepancies in what the board have said and totally ignoring the discrepancies in what Keegan's said. That way, delusion reigns.

What you choose to ignore is that Keegan's story at the time was consistent with the rest of the club's story until very recently. It's only now, with the club's so-called "facts", that Keegan was supposed to report to some "Director of Football". That has been both the official version and Keegan's: Keegan has the final say on transfers. Wise's role is to recommend players.

Anagram of 'Mike Ashey Dennis Wise" - "Swindle Messiah? Ye, I Ken"  Ok, so it's tenuous.  The board went down, I had to do it.

Dennis Wise is an anagram of Snide Swine. Mike Ashley is an anagram of Aye, He Milks. Coincidence?

I'm sure if Keegan named a player, and it was in our pay structure, we'd have got him. That's how I read that.

 

That's a very creative reading, because that's not at all what Mike Ashley said.

That first set of bold writing should have been half a sentence earlier tbh...if the deal is right.....

 

No. "If the deal is right – and that means it’s the right player who Kevin wants" defines the right deal as the player Kevin wants. That's a definition of the right deal, right there, from Mike Ashley himself. It was a lie.

“Yes, there is. If the deal is right – and that means it’s the right player who Kevin wants – then we will do that deal.

 

“Kevin himself is very particular on who he wants. To use his words, they have to have the right heart for Newcastle United. That is massively important for him – if they don’t, then he is not interested.

 

“The days of buying players at the wrong time are gone.

 

“And I don’t think the people and the structure we have now would have made the mistakes of the past.

 

“The right player at the right time is who we are after now. We want players with the heart and passion to play for Newcastle United and its supporters. Kevin doesn’t stop emphasising that.

 

“If a player doesn’t want to come to the North East, then we are not interested in him. If we think he only wants to come to Newcastle United for the wrong reasons then we’ll say, ‘You’re not for us’ and we’ll look elsewhere.

 

“Players have to tick a lot of boxes for us to be interested.

 

“Kevin inherited, by Premier League standards, a relatively small squad and we have to build that up as well as start producing the next generation of players through the Academy.”

 

If nothing else, the man is a two-faced liar.