Bad Mongo
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Posts posted by Bad Mongo
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Tbh I think Ashley has done a good job since he took us over. He cleared the debt, installed a progressive system that has succeeded in bringing in good players and shipping out bad ones whilst not spending lavish amounts of money and balancing the books in a way that will lead us to be able to spend better in the future, and just be in a more strong financial position as a club as opposed to one that could have gone under with the previous regime's policies.
1) When he bought the club, he bought the debt as well. Paying it was the most economical choice.
2) He's only brought in two players we know can lift the first team, one of them at a club record price for a defender.
3) Ameobi, Smith and Duff are still here; Carr and Ramage were out of contract. The "deadwood" would then be Rozenhal, Emre, Faye and Milner, two of them first team players -- one of which hasn't been replaced. That's pretty fucking progressive.
4) "Will lead us to be able to spend better in the future". And I'm sure they'll promise to do so, yet again. I'm willing to bet that they won't.
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guess you're referring to me?
can you clearly identify a timeline of events with key statements that prove ashley lied and keegan had no knowledge or culpability in events?
if you can i'll read it and judge, until then i'm going to continue to assume that it's largely speculation and hearsay based on pieced together interviews and articles from various places
is the part in bold a fact or a lie though? i'm confused?
again i'll ask, why the vitriol Mongo? please try to explain that to me without the presence of dennis wise (primary culprit allegedly) and a southern-based billionaire owner...
I have obviously no way of knowing what Keegan knew and when he knew it. I believe (and believed) he lied when he said it was his decision to sell Milner, but the reason for it is different: he needed to show that he was in charge. But if it was always part of the deal that he wouldn't be in charge of signings, it would make no sense to claim so. The difference between the lies is that Keegan's protect his authority, which is being undermined by the board, whereas Ashley's are fraudulent.
Those "pieced together interviews and articles from various places" are all from official club publications, by the way. Match day programmes and that NUFC magazine.
The part in bold is based on a) the owner having sold the club to Keegan on the ambition to win something and b) us not even properly replacing all outgoing players. There is a huge gap between stated long term plans and the will to implement those plans. In fact, there's no sign that those actually were the plans at any time.
When you ask "why the vitriol" I have to ask whether you can read. Where is this so-called vitriol? It's nowhere to be found. What I've written is an objective criticism: on the one hand, what has been said by the owner, on the other hand what has been done by the club. If you call that "vitriol", it must be because you're mentally challenged.
I've never attacked Wise or Ashley for being southerners, so I see no reason to answer to your last point.
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So instead of taking my points seriously, you choose to ignore them to support your argument. Nicely done!
Come on: Ashley has lied about who got to decide upon transfers and that there would be money available, that the squad would be expanded. If Dennis Wise et al were doing their job, which I believe they were doing (because if not, they would have gone and Keegan would have stayed), Mike Ashley lied. This is an owner who claimed he wanted to win something, but who's clearly satisfied with a bottom half finish.
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is anyone gonna look me in the internet eye and tell me this doesn't just boil down to a nice bit of dirty regionalism against a southern owner and nasty dennis?
anyone? really?
No problem. It's not about regionalism, it's about an owner lying about how he wants to run the club.
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In all honesty....
The signings we have made appear to be top notch signings, for relatively cheap prices. Obviously we cannot judge too much atm but like so far they have been class, especially spiderman.
If Wise is making these sort of signings, Ashley is saving this money, our debts are wiped ( ? )...do we really have anything to complain about the new regime as of yet?
If Keegan didn't like their plans in a way it's tough shite. We'll have someone who does fit into their plans. No one man is bigger than our club, dare I say it not even Shearer. I know this will spark a lot of debate....I just think that even though I too believe we are far from having everything fine and dandy, we are hardly in a crisis and therefore am most likely not going to be protesting, or at least not as extravagantly as a lot of others will be.
Anyhooo.....
Which of our signings are top notch? Guthrie? Bassong? Xisco? Nacho? The former two clearly aren't, nor were they cheaper than one would expect, and you haven't seen the other two. Then there's Coloccini. He's good, but he didn't come cheap. Not at all. Jonas did come cheap, and has certain strengths, but for how long will people love him when they notice he's less creative than James Milner? He's scored exactly as many goals in his whole career as Milner did in his time here, and in twice as many games. His assist ratio isn't any better. But he runs more and faster. Basically, we have replaced Milner with an older but faster and even harder working version. So much for our youth policy.
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Wise was following the programme Keegan wasn't. It's hardly surprising Ashley came down on his side, I doubt personality had much to do with it. Ashley is running the club as a business, that much is clear. I'm just not convinced anyone else who comes in won't do any different, unless they put the club into debt. That's what has happened at Liverpool and Man U and they have far bigger income resources than us.
So you're defending someone who runs a business on fraudulent claims that he will invest in new players for the squad. "Following the program" means being part of the scam.
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I think most people assume Guthrie was a Keegan signing, so he obviously had some input. He also had a few trialists in, among them Bassong.
I'm not really sure where this has come from myself. It seems much more likely to me that Guthrie is the sort of player Wise would have been looking at as manager of Leeds.
Keegan was supposedly only interested in Lampard, Henry & Beckham.
You mean the Keegan who claimed we would be looking at the same kind of players the likes of Tottenham would go for?
And that Guthrie, a player with offers from the likes of Bolton, would consider going to fucking Leeds? Guthrie played against us in Keegan's first home game, and I'm fairly sure he noticed.
Of course, Spurs have made at least five quite ambitious signings (while selling two of their best players at a massive profit), and we have made only two.
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So you mean they failed to add players to the squad because of Shepherd? That's just ludicrous, and for someone requesting facts it's plain embarrassing.
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I think most people assume Guthrie was a Keegan signing, so he obviously had some input. He also had a few trialists in, among them Bassong.
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That is true, we have only failed relative to everyone else.
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The backlash is nothing to do with previous regimes it's of their own making.
Totally ignoring key areas we needed cover.
Undermining the Manager forcing him to resign.
Screwing up season tickets and ripping fans off with the vision they thought they were buying into over the next 3 years.
Lack of communication and respect for the paying public.
Disrupting the dressing room with word that everyone was up for sale.
I'd say quite a few of their own there like.
I don't want to use this thread to go through all of those points again, as it's obvious people just have opposite viewpoints on a lot of that - both based on a lot of speculation and not a lot of fact.
All I'm saying is that the overly-dramatic reaction to what has happened this week has a lot to do with what has gone before... Souness, Allardyce, our decline over recent seasons.
Why else would anyone mention the last 10 years? As far as I'm concerned that has nothing to do with what is happening now.
What in that list isn't fact, apart from the unknown amount of "force" behind Keegan's resignation?
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It seems that a lot of people think Ashley can be forced to leave NUFC with ease, they are wrong and it will take a stroke of luck (eg fairytale takeover) or a long hard battle.
Throughout his career he rode roughshod through the business community and never cared for both the people in the industry, or whoever got in his way.
Without doubt he thinks that he’ll win this in the end.
Win what in the end? He's not going for the Premiership title, not even a UEFA cup spot. With the press rumours about everything else being spot on, I think he's looking to sell for a tidy profit. There's not all that much profit in owning a club, and I think we can say for certain that he's not after success on the pitch.
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Yes, but whose squad isn't better than last season? Middlesbrough's? West Ham's? Probably. Certainly not Sunderland, Fulham, Manchester City, Aston Villa, and so on. I don't think we'll be relegated, but unless we get lucky with the next manager, I see no reason to expect much improvement. I would have expected top 10 under Keegan, but not now.
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At the very worst this is Mike Ashley's only major mistake since taking over the football club, and I think this is a massive over reaction and is quite frankly out of order, especially as the new owner is new to all of this.
You are all just taking years of frustration with Newcastle out on the current owner, who has hardly had anything to do with it all.
You are allowing a dislike of one individual in the whole setup i.e. Dennis Wise, as well as some weird dislike of Londoners/southerners to convince yourselves that they must all be evil and bad and seeking to destroy Newcastle United.
This is all extremely silly, especially when no one knows exactly what has gone on and has caused the current predicament. It is all rather astonishing.
Keegan resigned as manager. This is the only 100% cast iron fact we have.
What a load of tosh. We have spent less money on transfers than all but 5 clubs, despite claims from the owner there would be money available. 100% cast iron fact. We have failed to buy players in several depleted positions, despite claims from the owner that the squad was thin and needed to be rebuilt. 100% cast iron fact. We have failed to add bodies to the squad, etc.
Problem is, you replace observations with wishful thinking. There is no investment in the team, when it's sorely needed. There was almost no investment in the team last year. None in January. Only blind optimism can make you believe the owner has any ambition for us. Jonas was a shrewd signing, but the rest aren't exactly the work of magicians, are they? Coloccini was well known and wasn't particularly cheap. Guthrie and Bassong are backup players, and Xisco most likely as well. So then we're left with Nacho, the highly ambitious loan deal.
There's absolutely no reason to believe we shall succeed with these people in charge, and with this transfer policy.
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The striker Keegan wanted was Schweinsteiger who turned the move down. We then bought Xisco who Keegan probably wasn't even aware existed, without his approval. This was wrong, but in a way it was right. Keegan wanted to hold onto Smith because his knowledge of Xisco was non-existent. Wise & co needed to act fast to get a striker in and rightly thought Smith was a no-hoper. The rest is history (or whoever's version you believe).
He was the Milner replacement, and isn't a striker. Also, how the hell do you know he turned us down? Some sources say Wise had told Keegan the transfer was droppet by Jimenez. There's no statement by Schweinsteiger, anyehere.
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Where was it stated by the club that all transfers were Keegan's choices? I personally was always under the understanding that Wise and co chose the players and KK just gave it his blessing which is what Keegan himself said. So if you're gonna blame people for this false pretense then Keegan is just as guilty as anyone.
Oh, come on, this should be common knowledge by now.
ASHLEY tells how he wants players with heart and passion for the club and that there is money for Keegan to spend.
“Yes, there is. If the deal is right – and that means it’s the right player who Kevin wants – then we will do that deal.
That's from the interview in that club magazine, hardly a press smear. Two lines, two fraudulent claims to make people buy season tickets.
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slightly improved?
Out - In
David Rozehnal - :colo:
Emre - Guthrie
Carr - Xisco
Ramage - Bassong
Faye - Nacho
Milner - Jonas
That's a strange way of putting it, as we clearly haven't replaced Carr and Ramage at all. We have only one right back. Jonas and Coloccini are our only new first team players, possibly Nacho as well (he'll most likely need time to adapt), but the rest shouldn't be starting. Bassong is merely OK as back-up and Guthrie is one for the future, Xisco is unknown.
Fact is, most teams around us have improved their first teams more. Luckily, that doesn't include Middlesbrough.
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TRon, that's just ridiculous. That interview was barely weeks before he left, and Ashley claimed that a) the right signing is a player Keegan wants who wants to play for Newcastle and b) there was money available for the right signings. Both of those claims were incorrect, as has been proven. Even the official statement from the club contradict them.
How is that "backing your manager in the public"? It undermines his position when actual fact proves it's all bollocks.
What I find laughable is that some people still think these crooks are going to try turning us into Arsenal without investing anything in the squad.
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Wait ... so how come none of the anti Ashley and anti board stuff isn't "rank" specualtion?
That's easy: The club's latest statements contradict their statements before the closing of the transfer window. Now we know that they lied.
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For definitions of 'sense' being synonymous with wishful thinking.
Have we improved the first team? Slightly. Have we improved the squad in numbers? Not at all. Have we brought in players to the positions most needing it? No. Do we have a manager capable of bringing the most out of the players? ... Will we be able to attract one, considering we have no transfer budget and have treated our former manager like shit? Certainly, with extraordinary amounts of luck. But without one, all we have is a squad that is no better than the one Souness had for his first season.
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And you seriously believe Jean-Michel Aulas was the one that decided Houllier wanted Milan Baros?
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The DOF system really isn't that shocking to people outside Britain. As far as i know most clubs in France, Germany, Turkey, and Italy use it.
The difference is that the DoF works together with the manager.
Also, does the following sound like someone who would like to work under Wise
His aggressive and offensive style of football, and his tense relations with the mercurial club president and owner Vittorio Cecchi Gori made Terim a favourite amongst Fiorentina fans. In Fiorentina, Terim had a significant start, beating AC Milan (4-0) and holding Juventus to a 3-3 thrilling draw, and eliminating Milan 4-2 on aggregate to reach the final of the Coppa Italia. However, in the middle of the 2000-2001 season, Terim declared that he was not going to extend his contract with the club since Cecchi Gori did not intend to make the investments that he requested. After his declaration, the team's performance declined significantly, and his continuing clashes with the club president urged him to resign before the season ended.
In the summer of 2001, he was named the coach of AC Milan turning down offers from other clubs like FC Barcelona and Liverpool. Immediately he signed Rui Costa and Ümit Davala to the club. He transformed AC Milan's system, playing with a system very similar to the Total football style of Rinus Michels. It was a simple 4-3-1-2 formation with Rui Costa as the playmaker. While he was coaching AC Milan, the team reached the third round of the UEFA Cup. However, after several disappointing results, his contract was terminated and making his AC Milan career last only 5 months.
No chance.
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This DoF and lack of say on transfers is a massive red herring if you ask me, IN MY OPINION if keegans list was suitable and fitted in with the clubs policy we wouldnt be having the problems we face now. I think it's perfectly viable that a high profile manager would come into this job and have full say on transfers providing they fitted in with the clubs policy, and i can imagine that a current manager would be able to provide a selection of players who would fit in with the policy having been in the game without break.
You forget that we have no transfer budget, and that our most valuable player will be leaving for free next summer.
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It should be possible to do something about this, as all his statements clearly have been fraudulent and misleading. Isn't there some kind of law against false advertising and fraud? He's made millions* of pounds on it.The 3 year season ticket deal was a massive warning sign, i'd feel sick right now if i'd had signed up to that thinking i was watching a KK team being built.
edit *I base this number on absolutely nothing, of course.
Does anyone out there have any kind of confidence in Ashley at all?
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1) Shit argument? If the club has been debt free but otherwise equal, it would have cost £100M more. He bought the club, debt and all, and paid it. It's only what's expected. Also, the point that our club would be bankrupt is just hearsay. The fact that you have to take it for granted to defend the new board says a lot.
2) No, I'm not using "the fact we've spent the club record for a defender as an argument AGAINST ashley", I'm using it against the claim that we're "bringing in good players ... whilst not spending lavish amounts of money", which is only true for Jonas.
3) Keegan also wanted to keep Milner. Of course all three players would need to be replaced if they were sold, so I'm not celebrating the fact that Duff may play on Saturday. And anyway, my point, which was always a counterpoint to the claim that the board had succeeded in "shipping out bad players", still stands: the most expensive deadwood is still there, and Carr and Ramage would have gone no matter what.
4) So you're willing to bet that they'll spend if they spend. I'm not taking you up on that, genius.