Rich

The man's a clown with that Enrique comment, but if he gets us one of these who can stay fit and do the business I'll kiss his feet.

You're right like, with the first bit. It's infuriating. You just have to hope the truth will out when/if it goes to court.

Keegan and the others were appointed within days of each other and Keegan claimed that he knew that we would be bringing in the new structure and even claimed that he was given 3 names and had preferred Wise as DoF. If the timing had been different then I might have been worried but Keegan was even asked something about him leaving last time and claiming something about the job not being what it said in the brochure, he said that this time he wasn't given a brochure. When he was asked about how much he had been promised to spend he was always vague and claimed that he'd have to try and persuade Ashley to spend, I can't remember if he said that he hoped Ashley would fall in love with the team or something. Keegan didn't look/sound right to me for a good long while, if you know what I mean. There were a lot of times where I was struggling to believe if he actually believed what he was saying... I did wonder whether he was often saying things to defend his position/put pressure on the board to back him/in order to try and keep the peace. I think a more accurate reflection of KK was the tirade after the Chelsea game (tirade may be a strong word) as a lot of pent-up frustration appeared to bubble out of him. Despite the improvements on the field something didn't seem right and as the months went by things seemed to be getting more and more suspicious. People were skeptical enough to make it a prominent question (first one asked?) to Mort once upon a time as well. I dunno. You'll remember me saying for a good few months prior to the KK walkout that things were a bit rotten, the posts will be on here somewhere.

Nut, you're an infuriating fucker sometimes. You know I can't answer those questions because I'm not Kevin Keegan. I'll play along though... For all we know he was skeptical, but took a similar approach and hoped he could make it work. That's one possibility. Perhaps on that fateful day in September the transfer window had closed and he realised it was never going to work because of how things turned out. That's as good as I can do, because those questions were fairly daft.

You missed Kinnear, who I'm as guilty of as any for labelling in the way you suggest as it does appear that you're either a cunt or a messiah, you're not wrong there. You're definitely a messiah by that token, though

that's where appointing a good manager comes in, i'd think. similar to sunderland we wasted a lot of money under souness, though at least they have had some tangible on field improvement, cisse and jones is a fair bit better than whatever nomarks were upfront for them when they got promoted. spending the money wasnt the problem, the problem was having a shit manager spend it. had we appointed a good manager that money couldve done wonders for us. Aye, again I can't disagree with the theory there. Speculation again though, innit? nothing is certain, but i think the basic premise of top manager + funds has a fair chance at success. better than shit manager + funds or even top manager + little funds. canny discussion anyway, off to bed now. Night night. Good idea as well. Was planning on being asleep by midnight myself. This fucking place.

I didn't see it coming and I've been going to games since the late 60's. Honestly? There was massive worry when Wise/Jimenez/Vetere were brought in as people rightly realised that it was going to lead to problems with Keegan. There was continued worry (on NUFC.com and on here, etc.) when it appeared Keegan had very little input into the negotiations/signings of players, further than just naming them/sanctioning them. I was personally skeptical, but as usual I hoped it would work and believed it could, which as always proved to be my downfall. When you tend to hope for the best/look on the bright side with this club, you tend to get kicked in the bollocks. Over and over again. Everyone's worst fears were eventually realised, but it's hard to say it was a complete shock when it happened how it happened and the reaction, in particular, was completely expected.

that's where appointing a good manager comes in, i'd think. similar to sunderland we wasted a lot of money under souness, though at least they have had some tangible on field improvement, cisse and jones is a fair bit better than whatever nomarks were upfront for them when they got promoted. spending the money wasnt the problem, the problem was having a shit manager spend it. had we appointed a good manager that money couldve done wonders for us. Aye, again I can't disagree with the theory there. Speculation again though, innit?

the manager didnt say "no" to robinho, and thats a crucial difference. i dont think keegan wouldve said no either. had the abu dhabi fella spenT what was left of the budget on a player hughes felt wasnt good enough then we'd hae a similar situation. though even bringing in players their way can cause problems as the manager has to assemble a team with players given to him, rather than with players he has individually pinpointed to fit into a system. While it would be nice to be bankrolled in the way City are, as you say it's hardly ideal when you've got players coming in that the manager may not necessarily want but then has to fit in anyway in order to appease his higher-ups. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable if I was a City fan, and I'd assume the sensible ones aren't - especially with the position they're in right now. At the end of the day, I still firmly believe the manager should have the final say on everything IF the finances are stable enough (i.e. if a player doesn't NEED to be sold to stave off financial turmoil, etc.)

Well aye, but nobody gets everything right 100% of the time, we're all human at the end of the day. You cannot really fault any owner for backing a manager with cash (as the manager is supposed to know more about buying players than an owner) as long as the money is their own and isn't pushing the club towards administration or whatever (not saying Shepherd did this, by the way, as I dunno what the books were like and what Fred had up his sleeve to sort things out even if it was bad.)

I think the only time we're going to see any real progress is when we get somebody in who has made their money and doesn't have any other business ties and who is happy to focus 100% on running the club to the best of their ability, rather than just having it as a "hobby" and allowing other people (who may not be qualified enough/capable enough) to do the dirty work for them. I think he got by with Chris Mort because Mort was a clever bloke who took the time to listen to fans and implement ideas and suggestions put to him, as soon as he went, though, that side of stuff died a death. In fact, even prior to Mort going things had spiralled down from what they had been. I know it's a daft thing to say, but for example if I had loads of money and wanted to buy a football club, if I got one I would barely sleep for trying to make it the best that it could possibly be. That's the sort of owner we need, really, someone who lives and breathes for the club to be successful and is clever enough to do the best for it/get the best people in on the management/coaching side as well. Obviously one man can't do everything but Ashley seemed to come in and want to do nothing bar provide the money, attend the games and enjoy the spotlight. That's a fair enough analysis isn't it? That's another mistake, if so.

Lerner seems to be the role model for owners in the PL these days, as far as the new ones go. I'm sure brummie could tell the story better than me, but hasn't he been actively improving all aspects of the club as well as backing O'Neill to the hilt? They're getting rewards for it, too, and it's nice to see.

The club had been heading that way the season before Ashley bought the club, so it's not just him. Like I pointed out in the other post, you could say "how come the Woodgate & Huth transfers couldn't come off, and yet 4 months later bring in an American centre-back who'd never played in the top-leagues before". is this the 'shepherd did it so ashley can as well' argument? from what i remember we all criticised shepherd and a fair few wanted him out? is it okay for ashley to do it but not shepherd? this is not a partisan game you know - ashley vs shepherd. either we hold both to the same standards or we dont. it seems far too many people are still in thrall to ashley because he got rid of the loathed shepherd. well when the pig starts acting and dressing like the farmer he deposed, you dont back the pig, you go after him as you did the farmer. and anyway, shepherd had a proven track record in funding his managers, ashley doesnt. even in a climate of clubs spending more than they ever have due to extra tv revenue. This is a very fair point as well to be honest. We have to try and be fair and even-handed in the way that we judge the people in charge of the club. Personally, I wasn't as anti-Shepherd as some, but I did have the feeling that he'd taken us as far as he could. In today's climate, the same might even apply to Ashley as he doesn't appear to have the money available to him to really take us to where we want to be as quickly as we want to get there - especially when you see the money a lot of other clubs have now, we're just falling further and further behind. The only answer may be a Lerner type or a Abu-Dhabhi group type to give us any sort of "quick fix".

but woodgate wouldve been INSTEAD of colo, it wouldve been modric OR scweinsteiger OR aimar (or nothing, as iti turned out in acuality) rather than all of them. and you never know how the rest of the budget and spending wouldve been restructured as a result. all we have to go on is what happened and what was spent, the rest of speculative and some of it nonsense. in reality he;s spent virtually nothing at a time when the rest of the league has been spending loads. I never said we'd be signing all of them! For fuck's sake, this place drives me crackers at times. Your post is as much speculation as mine was, though. I still cannot understand why a bloke would spend hundreds of millions to buy a football club in order to become a "fan". Travel up and down the country to watch them and WANT the team to be shite by not spending any money on it. This is where the logic fails, for me. I do understand the reality, but as I said I can't help but wonder if it came about because of monumental failings in the system RATHER than a lack of money. I cannot make this any clearer this time, surely? He made a transfer-record fee bid for Modric, he broke the transfer record for a defender with Coloccini, Schweinsteiger was apparently another very big deal... he said himself he was willing to finance us to the tune of £20m per season (provided he was being honest) out of his own money on top of what the club was making. There was definitely money there to be spent and Keegan kept telling us so and Ashley himself told us now. Kinnear is now telling us so. None of us have seen the books, none of us know what state the finances were/are in and as a result are speculating and biting each other's heads off all over the shop because of it. People are ASSUMING he's been pocketing money (season tickets, TV money) but who's to say it hasn't been used up by the club already, if the books are really as bad as they might have been? People are ASSUMING he wants £450m for the club, at times, which seems insane to me. Obviously I'm assuming the other way, so nobody really can be "right" - that's why debates of this nature are so futile, ESPECIALLY when people are so fucking dogmatic and unwilling to take on another point of view. It's a huge topic of discussion, but I get royally fucked off by those who just see it as black or white and blame one or the other. It's not going to be that fucking simple is it? People need to Wise up. mine isnt as much speculation though, because i actually touch upon some things that have happened - ie ending up with a loanee from uruguay rather than any of those big name expensive players - funny how none of them came off when there was a fee involved yet we can bring in an inexperienced loanee in the space of a day. to me it is pretty obvious, seeing the trend across the three windows, the whinging about it being an expensive seat, his statement that he wasnt willing to spend much, the focus on resale values or of generating future income through developing players for sale, his strategies at sports direct and the desire to cut costs across the board (even down to players suits) that ashley simply hasnt been willing to invest money into transfers thus far. and the facts bare witness to this, a net spend of £3m since ashley assumed power. in the same time Sunderland have spent close to £70m. even a single big signing like modric wouldnt even take us anywhere near that level of investment, which youd think a new owner would want to make for the reasons in your post. I'm not saying you are wrong, far from it, because all of what you have posted could be true. This is what I mean though, egomaniacs like yourself (and myself at times) seem to be more concerned about being "right" or having people conform to their points of view. It's all about fucking points scoring: "mine isnt as much speculation though, because i actually touch upon things that have happened." Well done. Top marks. You've completely ignored the major point in my post about the potential for it being outside of Ashley's control at the key moments (Wise/Keegan/Jimenez) and the fact that there was obviously money available because of the bids made while Keegan was here, instead doing what I suppose people would call an "NE5" now and making a post purely based on your own thoughts/feelings/observations. That's not debating, or arguing or conversing - that's just pushing your ideology over and over and over again, like many others are doing. At least try to take some things people say in opposition to you on board, please, like I'm trying to do here. I don't think there's any doubt that Ashley's handled a lot of things in a very cock-eyed way since he took over here, but I think he's getting beaten with a lot of imaginary sticks at times and that's what doesn't sit right with me. The facts do appear damning, I'm not going to disagree, but we don't know why that has turned out to be the case, which has been my entire point for the last 40 minutes or whatever. It's hard to believe that it's purely 100% Mike Ashley's fault and that he simply was looking to make a profit out of the club rather than actually wanting us to do well (despite what he says and despite what that Andy Dunn fellow has intimated from him). Obviously, it could be all his fault, but is it likely? Really? PS: I find that Sunderland comparison fairly laughable with the amount of piss-taking that gets done about their "£70m wasted". You can't have it both ways man, you want money to be spent on quality players, not just money spent for the sake of spending it.

I'm guessing Rich has been playing with the posts per page settings. Thought I'd got away with it. Just bumped it up to 30 to see if it makes any difference tomorrow during the game.

An interesting point of view and not a nice one to think about. None of us can say either way though!

but woodgate wouldve been INSTEAD of colo, it wouldve been modric OR scweinsteiger OR aimar (or nothing, as iti turned out in acuality) rather than all of them. and you never know how the rest of the budget and spending wouldve been restructured as a result. all we have to go on is what happened and what was spent, the rest of speculative and some of it nonsense. in reality he;s spent virtually nothing at a time when the rest of the league has been spending loads. I never said we'd be signing all of them! For fuck's sake, this place drives me crackers at times. Your post is as much speculation as mine was, though. I still cannot understand why a bloke would spend hundreds of millions to buy a football club in order to become a "fan". Travel up and down the country to watch them and WANT the team to be shite by not spending any money on it. This is where the logic fails, for me. I do understand the reality, but as I said I can't help but wonder if it came about because of monumental failings in the system RATHER than a lack of money. I cannot make this any clearer this time, surely? He made a transfer-record fee bid for Modric, he broke the transfer record for a defender with Coloccini, Schweinsteiger was apparently another very big deal... he said himself he was willing to finance us to the tune of £20m per season (provided he was being honest) out of his own money on top of what the club was making. There was definitely money there to be spent and Keegan kept telling us so and Ashley himself told us now. Kinnear is now telling us so. None of us have seen the books, none of us know what state the finances were/are in and as a result are speculating and biting each other's heads off all over the shop because of it. People are ASSUMING he's been pocketing money (season tickets, TV money) but who's to say it hasn't been used up by the club already, if the books are really as bad as they might have been? People are ASSUMING he wants £450m for the club, at times, which seems insane to me. Obviously I'm assuming the other way, so nobody really can be "right" - that's why debates of this nature are so futile, ESPECIALLY when people are so fucking dogmatic and unwilling to take on another point of view. It's a huge topic of discussion, but I get royally fucked off by those who just see it as black or white and blame one or the other. It's not going to be that fucking simple is it? People need to Wise up.

Eh? I've attached a URL to the title, hence the reason why it's in a blue linky colour... It's not really noticeable at all on my browser. Doesn't help that I'm a little colourblind either. I'm not having that as an excuse I'm the most colour-defficient person I know (not just red/green, basically, I struggle with everything!) I've banged a link in below, the problem was that the URL was gigantic, I usually would just copy it in below/above the quoted story but it was longer than the width of a page!

Eh? I've attached a URL to the title, hence the reason why it's in a blue linky colour...

Where do you think he's made mistakes? I can't be arsed to get into that at 12.40am, to be honest, as it's a massive subject. We'll have to talk about it next time I see you out and about for a pint! See my post above that for a bit of clarity on my feelings: i.e. this "mistake" may not have been entirely his at all, but he certainly could have taken steps to prevent the situation from happening as it did if he'd been more hands-on/less naive about things.

The bids for Modric, Woodgate, Schweinsteiger, Aimar (?) as well... all of which were for substantial sums. I think if anyone cocked up massively in the transfer window it was Keegan, Wise and Jimenez (and potentially Llambias) for the way that communication seemed to break down/lies were told/things didn't go to plan. I'm very hesitant to blame KK though as I know he would want the best for NUFC. Of course you can go back to another Ashley "mistake" if you believe Wise/Jimenez should never have been brought in anyway, and you can blame him for it due to that too. The whole thing has been a catastrophe, but none of us know exactly where to apportion the blame or what exactly happened - it's infuriating.

He's still not the big, bad villain that people are painting him out to be. I was as angry with him as anyone for the way the Keegan thing unfolded, but after taking a few steps back from the situation it has been hard to completely change my opinion of him after one single event like a lot seem to have done. Aye he's made a huge mistake that has been massively detrimental since it happened to the football club and to the lives of all the fans that follow it with a passion, but I hardly think he's sitting around somewhere smiling about how things have gone wrong - and not just because he could potentially lose money because of it. I suppose we'll see if he stays in how he does things or we'll see with the price he sells the club at, but even before this interview I've been hesitant to paint him 100% as the villain. I don't think there's any excuse for the silence before now though, but I am glad he's finally spoken in public about the current situation (even if it's just a little bit.) More can be read outside of the quotes, to be honest, and this Dunn bloke has obviously had a face-to-face chat with him so it can't all be idle speculation.

Something like that would be great.

I'd prefer 11th like! Night-time or day-time?