macphisto

I would have liked someone with his influence to either get Ashley to make changes to the club setup or leave. Honestly, we could have just relied on agents to send us players which is probably closer to the truth anyway seeing as we primarily only recruited from one country. The staunch defence of Carr in this thread is why I think his role was exaggerated as it was seen as one positive at the club; it gave some fans belief that things might get better through his signings and that the club knew what it was doing. In my view though the perception didn't quite match reality.

Yes, like Charnley was doing his job and Kinnear, Justin Barnes, etc.... Regarding Pardew, I'm sure he was the one who got Demba Ba to the club through his West Ham connections and not Carr.

Not one of them is the equivalent of Robertson in their position and Maguire on the international stage outperforms them too. He might not have identified them initially but I wouldn't be surprised of he when to watch them before giving the go ahead to sign them (Speaking from ignorance but I think Bruce would have played a part in domestic signings).

Not under Newcastle where he was often in contact with Ashley more than the manager.

Name two players Carr signed for us better value than Bruce at Hull with Robertson and Maguire? That is not me defending Bruce but rather to show that someone like Bruce can even get it right now and again and the examples given better than Carr ever did.

No, I don't hold Hughton or Rafa responsible. Hughton was dropped into the role and was only a manager for a short time. Rafa, understandably thought he could change the way the club was run as he was head and shoulders above the other managers we had under Ashley. Once he knew the club wouldn't change then he left. I don't think his job was to strictly scout and recommend players, at least not in the traditional way of doing things; as I said previously he was in direct communications with Ashley, that is not how a normal club operates. He was a crucial part of a dysfunctional setup where players were bought solely for their potential resale value without any care to what the team needed. You also can't say for sure we would have been relegated without Carr as we don't know who we would have signed if he wasn't in place.

Yet you never hear about the other scouts missing their targets as much as we did about Carr. Why was that? If anything he and the club should have been embarrassed by how many top players we "allegedly" lost out on. It comes back to how they used to speak in the fans forum in their condescending tone where they had a "sustainable business model" all backed up by people like Ferdinand and others who claimed Ashley was an amazing businessman. Part of the "sustainable business model" was this great scout in Graham Carr but we couldn't get his top signings as we didn't have the wealth of Abu Dhabi, to paraphrase Ashley, whilst completely ignoring every other team in the league. Not that well paid, we don't know what he was on. He didn't need the money and it must have been manna from heaven to be given a 8 year contract. He also wasn't a normal scout, he was in direct communications with Ashley. I have no time for the bloke and we did get relegated twice during that time and flirted with relegation most seasons. Something as the Chief Scout he had a hand in though by no means the only one responsible for that.

Remarkably well? Judging him by who we did sign and not those that allegedly "got away", he was distinctly average in my view. I do respect your opinions but I'm not too interested in discussing the merits of players we signed under his watch so best to agree to disagree. I'd much rather discuss the merits of signing Rashford and other future players! The main point I was trying to make is that I don't believe anything that came out of the club during Ashley's time and I have nothing but utter contempt for anyone who was willing to work at the club during that time. I hold Carr along with Charnley, most of the managers and others as all being equally responsible for the way the club was allowed to rot.

We should be careful when talking about Carr as I wouldn't believe any information coming out of the club under Ashley. You mention the players above, but his buys were very much hit and miss. It suited the club for fans to think we had a great scout in place but were only held back by our "sustainable business model". You never read about these types of stories regarding scouts at other clubs on a regular basis. As someone who had personal discussions with Ashley and was from a football background, I also hold him partially responsible for the dysfunctional set-up of the club where we targeted players for their potential future re-sale value and not what was needed for the team. If the bloke really was missing out on all these top players then what does it say about his integrity that he was willing to work under Ashley rather than move to a club where he would have had more success in landing his top targets?

No, I don't think they are linked because their historical stats back up what I said. I find it bizarre why so many people are so keen to keep Targett when we are hoping to be challenging in the future. Campaign??? Targett is a solid player who I'd be happy to keep if Howe wants to but I don't understand the way people are going overboard about him. He is a solid player, no more; there's a reason a 26 year old player with 139 Premier League appearances is available for £15 million. We have shown we can sign a really top class full back in Trippier and I'd much rather explore the possibility of having the same level of player on the other side.

Football has moved on a lot since Robert and Ginola, ASM will have to cover his own defensive duties if he wants to be part of the club in the future. As an interim measure, it would be the only reason for keeping Targett who could cover him defensively. We have had such poor teams under Ashley that as a fanbase we are behind the times. Most people are advocating keeping Targett who doesn't do enough in attack and ASM who doesn't work hard enough; the complete antithesis to how the top teams are setup and the way football is moving.

I wonder if there's truth in the stories that the club want to sell him in the summer and he knows he's off?

That's a lot of ifs and 29/30 is not getting on, it's the peak years of his career. The issue with Targett is not his quality but style of play, he offers very little going forward. If that is what Howe wants then fine but I'm sure he'd want a fullback who is more attacking, even if it means we lose a little bit in defence. Then in two years time when we upgrade that position, if we have to, we buy the same type of player but of higher quality. I'll not comment on the last point

How would that work when he left Villa at the first sign that he wasn't a 1st team player?

Are you seriously quoting Liverpool who have Robertson and TAA as their regular fullbacks as an argument to keep Targett???

13 matches and still no assists or goals will also have a lot to do with it too if Howe is looking for an attacking fullback.

I agree with what you're saying but I wonder how big a role Arthur Cox played on the training ground under Keegan?

Italy have a good history of turning top players into managers, Ancelotti, Capello, Mancini. No conversation about great players and top managers is complete without Cruyff. He basically set the template for a lot of future managers, Guardiola a prime example. I wonder if there's something we can learn as a country as our record of top players to good managers isn't great in comparison to others.

You can an add El Chapo to the list too. Always makes me laugh that he finished his playing career at Dorados de Sinaloa, Culiacán, Mexico. I wonder how they could afford his salary?

Blackburn could be a destination. Tony Mowbray's press conference is well worth a watch, certainly isn't hiding anything.

I see where you're coming from but personally I think it's best to just leave it all in the past and enjoy the times we have. There are so many parties who facilitated Ashley's time at the club; media, pundits, NUFC Trust and a large proportion of the fan base itself. I'm just pleased the Ashley era is over and happy to move on.

No, the question was about keeping a player club captain who doesn't start every match. You gave the example of Fernandinho who is in the twilight of his career which is completely different to Lascelles who is at the peak of his career. There's plenty of examples of captains at the end of their career not starting every match (Bryan Robson is one example) but I can't think of one at the peak of their career. It's naturally accepted by supporters and players that aging captains don't start every match whilst someone at the age of Lascelles would be a running joke. The alternative is to remove the captaincy which wouldn't bode well after he's held out for so long. That's why age is linked to the example of Fernandinho.

One is 36, at the end of their career and the other is 28 at what should be the peak of their career. Not sure they're comparable.

Throw in Lascelles too. I'd be amazed if he is still here next season. At his age players don't go from club captain to 4th choice and stay at a club. Also can't see Murphy and Almiron both being at the club. One will definitely leave, wouldn't be surprised if both left.

We also apparently put a bid in for Gosens in January too.