macphisto

I recently read Brilliant Orange: The Neurotic Genius of Dutch Football and it struck me how there's a link from Dutch football in the 70s via Cruyff to Guardiola. The book talks about how it's not enough to win but you have to do it the right way and that Dutch football was also on a mission to show the world how football should be played. Maybe I'm overthinking things but it certainly struck a cord when I was reading it and City's performances in the Champions League. Jan Jongbloed, is an example of what I mean and is something I could see Guardiola doing. Jongbloed made his debut in 1962 where he played for 4 minutes and never featured again until 1974 when he was aged 33. Pretty nondescript career where he played for minor Dutch teams (this at a time when the keepers at Ajax and Feyenoord were winning European trophies) but was selected for both World Cup Finals in the 1970's as he was good with the ball at his feet and could act as a sweeper; there was little consideration given to his abilities as a shot stopper.

I was just googling the deal as I thought Souness had shares in Rangers at the time. If not, I'm sure he benefited some way through his business relationship with Murray, Rangers Chairman. Anyway, I had completely forgot that the police raided the club over the Boumsong and Faye transfers.

Just to make people cry, later that season we signed Boumsong for £8million under Souness when he had only been at Rangers on a free transfer for a few months. Utterly bizarre and then to rub more salt into the wound we let Hughes, a solid squad player, go not long afterwards for peanuts.

Laughing to myself as you've just told it a lot better than how I just did now!!!

I thought the issue was Man U were planning on buying Rooney the following summer so we were used to make them bid sooner than they planned and also start a bidding war to increase his transfer fee. I might be wrong and it was a genuine bid but we had already signed Kluivert that summer to go with Shearer, Bellamy and Shola. The bid may have been genuine with us using the Woodgate fee to fund the move or a smokescreen in an attempt to pacify fans about Woodgate leaving. 2004 was a strange summer as apparently Kluivert and Butt were signed above Robson's head; particularly the latter player as Robson wanted to keep Speed.

Honestly no need to apologise and apologies if I was too strong myself. Honestly, I just detest what became of the club under Ashley. Signing players with the team in mind is all I want from the club and you're right about the bad days being behind us!!!

Do you mean when we bid for him? I don't think we were ever serious bidders. I always thought that was more to help Paul Stretford out, Rooney's agent, by flushing out Man U's interest. Freddie Shepherd was Streford's best man at his wedding and godfather to one of his kids (Chronicle Link). After Newcastle, Shepherd and his son formed a sports agency with Stretford. I'm sure I read Bobby wasn't happy with the club's relationship with Stretford where he almost had an office at the ground.

He was actively part of a football setup where players were bought purely for their resale value with no consideration of how they would fit into a team. That was his remit which he accepted and therefore has to accept some responsibility for how dysfunctional our teams were. As a football person he knew we were set up for failure and if he had any self-respect then he would have left. Like most of our managers and Charnley he knew he was on a good thing. The reason some of his alleged top recommendations were released is that it was a classic Ashley strategy to string the fans along. In a few years time we might be able to buy Carr's first picks, have faith in what the club is doing. Why is it that scouts at other clubs have nowhere near his exposure and even now at Newcastle how often do we hear about Steve Hickson? I know you disagree but for me anyone who lasted that long under Ashley in any capacity is nothing but a parasite who put their own interests first with the club well down their list of priorities.

All of the people at the club had a remit, I'm not sure of the point of bringing that up? Charnley and Barnes were hugely successful as their remit was to make a profit. Apart from two seasons all of our managers did a great job as their remit was not to get relegated. He was an integral part of how the club was set up and therefore deserves some of the blame for how it was run. I'm tired of hearing in general how great he was, the players we missed out on, etc. It was PR spin by the club to give people false hope that we might get success doing it the "Carr Way"; that's why he received so much exposure. Think about it from the club's point of view, without pushing how "good" Carr was and his near "misses", what hope was there for fans to believe the club would be successful? It was the usual Ashley smoke and mirrors. The fact is, he bought a lot of dross which is glossed over by his few successes below, plus Cabaye and Sissoko. Below are his signings above 6 million Euro. Only 4 of the players in bold made a profit and a lot of them contributed to our 2nd relegation. The losses are particularly glaring when you consider most of his players were only here for a short time. You can not say without Carr we would have gone down as that is assuming we would not have bought other players. With regards to coming back up, I'm pleased Carr was not involved as none of his players stuck around the 2nd time we went down. Papiss Demba Cissé: €12.00m, left €5.85m Vurnon Anita: €8.50m, free transfer Mapou Yanga-Mbiwa: €8.00m, left €7.35m Mathieu Debuchy: €6.20m, left €15.00m Rémy Cabella: €10.00m, left €8.00m Siem de Jong: €8.70m, left €2.30m Emmanuel Rivière: €6.32m, left €1.10m Daryl Janmaat: €6.00m, left €8.90m Georginio Wijnaldum: €20.00m, left €27.50m Aleksandar Mitrovic: €18.50m, left €24.70m Florian Thauvin: €18.35m, left €11.00m Jonjo Shelvey: €16.00m (Carr Signing?) Andros Townsend: €15.70m (Carr Signing?) Mbemba: €12.00m, left €4.66m Henri Saivet: €6.00m, free

Quite easy, he helped to facilitate the way the club was run under Ashley. Maybe Barnes needed the money like Carr????? Anyway Mandoon and HTT, it's very late where I am so off to sleep but it's been a good discussion!

Our whole business model was set up for agents to make money, signing for us and then moving on after a few years. Look at the players signed for over 6 million Euro. How many were actually any good and how many stayed for more than two seasons? The agents were laughing all the way and I can't think of another club operating with such a high turnover of their most expensive players. It's interesting to note that once Carr left, we never returned to the model of high player turnover where we spent a decent amount of money. Been a fairly static squad after Rafa. Papiss Demba Cissé: €12.00m Vurnon Anita: €8.50m Mapou Yanga-Mbiwa: €8.00m Mathieu Debuchy: €6.20m Rémy Cabella: €10.00m Siem de Jong: €8.70m Emmanuel Rivière: €6.32m Daryl Janmaat: €6.00m Georginio Wijnaldum: €20.00m Aleksandar Mitrovic: €18.50m Florian Thauvin: €18.35m Jonjo Shelvey: €16.00m (Carr Signing?) Andros Townsend: €15.70m (Carr Signing?) Mbemba: €12.00m Henri Saivet: €6.00m

It's proven we did do it, that's why Keegan left as one of the signings was to do a favour for an agent.

Because we had a relationship with an agency(s) where the premise was that we would provide a platform in the PL and then the player would move on for big money in the future. That's how we were set up and sold to players and agents. If Cabaye had gone to Arsenal then he would have gone for the initial low fee and that's it; there would not be the prospect of a large transfer a few years later. Cabaye would also not have the time to adapt to the league like at Newcastle if he needed a season to bed in.

I don't think he did, I'm sure it was Pardew though I can't find anything through a quick Google.

I would have liked someone with his influence to either get Ashley to make changes to the club setup or leave. Honestly, we could have just relied on agents to send us players which is probably closer to the truth anyway seeing as we primarily only recruited from one country. The staunch defence of Carr in this thread is why I think his role was exaggerated as it was seen as one positive at the club; it gave some fans belief that things might get better through his signings and that the club knew what it was doing. In my view though the perception didn't quite match reality.

Yes, like Charnley was doing his job and Kinnear, Justin Barnes, etc.... Regarding Pardew, I'm sure he was the one who got Demba Ba to the club through his West Ham connections and not Carr.

Not one of them is the equivalent of Robertson in their position and Maguire on the international stage outperforms them too. He might not have identified them initially but I wouldn't be surprised of he when to watch them before giving the go ahead to sign them (Speaking from ignorance but I think Bruce would have played a part in domestic signings).

Not under Newcastle where he was often in contact with Ashley more than the manager.

Name two players Carr signed for us better value than Bruce at Hull with Robertson and Maguire? That is not me defending Bruce but rather to show that someone like Bruce can even get it right now and again and the examples given better than Carr ever did.

No, I don't hold Hughton or Rafa responsible. Hughton was dropped into the role and was only a manager for a short time. Rafa, understandably thought he could change the way the club was run as he was head and shoulders above the other managers we had under Ashley. Once he knew the club wouldn't change then he left. I don't think his job was to strictly scout and recommend players, at least not in the traditional way of doing things; as I said previously he was in direct communications with Ashley, that is not how a normal club operates. He was a crucial part of a dysfunctional setup where players were bought solely for their potential resale value without any care to what the team needed. You also can't say for sure we would have been relegated without Carr as we don't know who we would have signed if he wasn't in place.

Yet you never hear about the other scouts missing their targets as much as we did about Carr. Why was that? If anything he and the club should have been embarrassed by how many top players we "allegedly" lost out on. It comes back to how they used to speak in the fans forum in their condescending tone where they had a "sustainable business model" all backed up by people like Ferdinand and others who claimed Ashley was an amazing businessman. Part of the "sustainable business model" was this great scout in Graham Carr but we couldn't get his top signings as we didn't have the wealth of Abu Dhabi, to paraphrase Ashley, whilst completely ignoring every other team in the league. Not that well paid, we don't know what he was on. He didn't need the money and it must have been manna from heaven to be given a 8 year contract. He also wasn't a normal scout, he was in direct communications with Ashley. I have no time for the bloke and we did get relegated twice during that time and flirted with relegation most seasons. Something as the Chief Scout he had a hand in though by no means the only one responsible for that.

Remarkably well? Judging him by who we did sign and not those that allegedly "got away", he was distinctly average in my view. I do respect your opinions but I'm not too interested in discussing the merits of players we signed under his watch so best to agree to disagree. I'd much rather discuss the merits of signing Rashford and other future players! The main point I was trying to make is that I don't believe anything that came out of the club during Ashley's time and I have nothing but utter contempt for anyone who was willing to work at the club during that time. I hold Carr along with Charnley, most of the managers and others as all being equally responsible for the way the club was allowed to rot.

We should be careful when talking about Carr as I wouldn't believe any information coming out of the club under Ashley. You mention the players above, but his buys were very much hit and miss. It suited the club for fans to think we had a great scout in place but were only held back by our "sustainable business model". You never read about these types of stories regarding scouts at other clubs on a regular basis. As someone who had personal discussions with Ashley and was from a football background, I also hold him partially responsible for the dysfunctional set-up of the club where we targeted players for their potential future re-sale value and not what was needed for the team. If the bloke really was missing out on all these top players then what does it say about his integrity that he was willing to work under Ashley rather than move to a club where he would have had more success in landing his top targets?

No, I don't think they are linked because their historical stats back up what I said. I find it bizarre why so many people are so keen to keep Targett when we are hoping to be challenging in the future. Campaign??? Targett is a solid player who I'd be happy to keep if Howe wants to but I don't understand the way people are going overboard about him. He is a solid player, no more; there's a reason a 26 year old player with 139 Premier League appearances is available for £15 million. We have shown we can sign a really top class full back in Trippier and I'd much rather explore the possibility of having the same level of player on the other side.