Unbelievable

Who said it was the "only way"..? It's as good a measure as any, though, and the fact nobody here ridiculing UV is willing to take him up on his bet tells its own story.

UV or Pip? I'd be more inclined to take Pips but neither are entirely dependent on the activity of NUFC so it's f***ing nonsense - last year was widely recognised as an anomalous year for a lot of teams and based on that, if we stick as we are in the market, i reckon we'll end up doing worse despite having some better players on the books I was referring to UV's proposal FWIW. Quite comical watching people try and squirm it into something else. On the contrary I think most of those other people have explained their reasoning very well. UV's shallow point-scoring exercise of counting goals rather than results is petty at best. It says more about those who want to support such a narrow argument than it does about those who are disputing it. To be fair, his bet was targeted at the supposed improved quality of our ATTACK. I would say goals scored is a pretty good measure for this, certainly better than the possession stat nonsense others have been coming up to counter his argument, wouldn't you agree? No I wouldn't. While Carroll is a formidable centre forward, I have never rated Nolan so highly and neither it seems have the rest of the premiership clubs. Carroll and Nolan did provide an effective Stoke-style partnership but it severely limited our passing game due to Nolan's lack of movement. As Baggio pointed out earlier, we scored more goals than Spurs, does that mean our attacking play was more effective than theirs? Yes, it means exactly that. Not sure how you could argue this... May not have been as pleasing on the eye as Barcelona style attacking, but effective it was.

Since the Premier League became a 20-team league during the 95-6 season, only 8 teams who've finished outside the top 6 have scored more than 56 goals. Unless someone reckons we're going to finish 6th then it's an awful bet man. So what would be your target for goals scored next season bearing in mind our "ambition" of a top 10 finish, and who would score those goals with our current squad (the argument being if we have currently improved attacking wise)?

You must have overlooked the fact we lost our two top scorers.. Easy mistake to make.

UV or Pip? I'd be more inclined to take Pips but neither are entirely dependent on the activity of NUFC so it's f***ing nonsense - last year was widely recognised as an anomalous year for a lot of teams and based on that, if we stick as we are in the market, i reckon we'll end up doing worse despite having some better players on the books I was referring to UV's proposal FWIW. Quite comical watching people try and squirm it into something else. On the contrary I think most of those other people have explained their reasoning very well. UV's shallow point-scoring exercise of counting goals rather than results is petty at best. It says more about those who want to support such a narrow argument than it does about those who are disputing it. To be fair, his bet was targeted at the supposed improved quality of our ATTACK. I would say goals scored is a pretty good measure for this, certainly better than the possession stat nonsense others have been coming up to counter his argument, wouldn't you agree?

Very free

Rather get a replacement striker than a fee tbh..

Your argument essentially comes down to: we may have gone down in numbers, but the players left have just had a really good season, even better than we might have expected beforehand (something I actually kind of agree with). They are still the same players as last year though, aren't they? Also, what is to say they will exceed expectations again?

Well no, not quite, i also mentioned the return of Ben Arfa and Gosling. And that we now have someone with legs to partner Tiote. Look, we are going round in circles. Only time will tell. I for one, am looking forward to the new season and dont get all the pessimism. Yes we need a few more, and there is plently of time for that to happen. As it stands, our first 11 looks decent and should cause some problems. We looks like weve got a bit more pace and players that can do things with the ball. I agree, if we lose the players you mentioned we are going to be seriously lacking - if they arent replaced. We'll see. Fair enough. Still fail to see where Ben Arfa fits into your argument: he was available at the start of last season and he will be this season if things don't change in that respect. So he was injured for most of the season. Do you think none of our players will be injured next season? I would argue there are other players than Ben Arfa that would make us much weaker if they were out injured for a serious amount of time (Colo, Enrique).. But, as you say, we'll see.

So we're back to square one. We've lost Nolan, Campbell and Carroll, and brought in Cabaye, Marveaux and Ba. I said it was debatable that those changes have made us stronger and explained why, player for player and position for position. My conclusion is we are stronger in midfield, but weaker in defense and attack. What don't you agree with?

The squad Elliott, the squad...

Are we stronger now than at the start of last season? It's not rocket science..

Whether we are currently stronger than we started last season is very debatable.. How exactly? We have lost Carroll and have replaced him with Ba. I don't think that constitutes progress, do you? We have lost Nolan, our club captain and goal scorer and replaced him with Cabaye, who looks promising but is a bit of an unknown quantity. Let's call it evens. We have lost Campbell (essential cover at centre back) and got Marveaux (cover for wings with first team potential but also massive crock potential). All in all we haven't done too badly, but we've gone backwards in attack and defense, and (hopefully) improved in midfield. We have also not spent any major transfer funds. As I have argued before, I am relatively happy so far, but don't come and tell me you are happy if this is how the window closes..? Well, Ba For Carroll. Yes, Carroll was unstoppable for us first half of last season. Got to remember he missed a lot of the 2nd half through injury. How many games would we have got out of him? Ba's record was/is very good. So we've lost a good player, but replaced him with one. Campbell - essential? Come on. He was shocking all but 1 game for us. He's finished. As for Nolan, from a playing perspective, i didnt shed any tears to see him go. If Cabaye is the footballer he is made out to be, we will be a lot more mobile in the middle next year and hopefull Tiote wont have to do the running of to men. Add to that the return of Ben Arfa, Meaveux, Gosling and potentially Vuckic, i'd say (on paper) we looking stronger. Just lack a little depth. Again, there is still two months to go before the window ends too. I just dont get all the doom and gloom. I for one, cant wait for the new season. How much Carroll played second half of last season is irrelevant to whether we have become stronger in the striker department since the start of last season. Surely you understand that? Campbell was essential cover, not because he was an excellent option, but because by letting him go we now have no cover if anything happens to Colo, Williamson or Taylor. It does not take John Terry to replace him but since he's gone and we've not got anybody else in to step up when injuries hit us in central defense, we've gone backwards in this area. Surely this is no too complicated? Ben Arfa and Vuckic were here last season and both were fit to play, so they are irrelevant in a comparison. I will give you Gosling, even though it is entirely unsure after nearly 2 years on the sidelines he will ever fulfill his potential with us. Anyway, I already conceded so far we look slightly stronger in midfield than at the start of last season, but we have gone backwards in defense and attack. The two months we still have are irrelevant to the argument as you yourself stated: Which I demonstrated to you is very debatable. Even then, if you are happy to be optimistic about the possible incomings in the next two months, surely you will permit me to be cautious with respect to possible outgoings. After all, we all know what is likely to happen if decent bids come in for Barton, Enrique and even the likes of Colo, Jonas and Tiote. We clearly have different opinions, however, Ben Arfa and Vuckic were fit to play??? If we are talking about 'as it stands' Then Barton, Enrique etc havent been sold. We managed half a season without Carroll, so maybe we are weaker up top than we were the first half of last season, however we are stronger than the second. Again, as it stands, imo, we are stronger than we ended last season. Ben Arfa and Vuckic were more or less fit to play at the start of last season, weren't they? I haven't excluded Barton, Enrique, etc in my comparison to the start of last season, have I? So you conceed we are currently weaker up top than at the start of last season? Good. Now show me how we aren't weaker in defense and it might give your optimism a semblance of credibility.

Whether we are currently stronger than we started last season is very debatable.. How exactly? We have lost Carroll and have replaced him with Ba. I don't think that constitutes progress, do you? We have lost Nolan, our club captain and goal scorer and replaced him with Cabaye, who looks promising but is a bit of an unknown quantity. Let's call it evens. We have lost Campbell (essential cover at centre back) and got Marveaux (cover for wings with first team potential but also massive crock potential). All in all we haven't done too badly, but we've gone backwards in attack and defense, and (hopefully) improved in midfield. We have also not spent any major transfer funds. As I have argued before, I am relatively happy so far, but don't come and tell me you are happy if this is how the window closes..? Since when did Campbell qualify as essential cover? He was f***ing shocking man. The same people who were moaning about Campbell being useless and Nolan panting after 50 minutes are now moaning that we've sold them....how ironic. I want a few more players in especially a top notch striker and right winger, but I'm happy so far See above. He was essential cover because we are now left with only 3 centre backs. If one of them is injured, then what?

Whether we are currently stronger than we started last season is very debatable.. How exactly? We have lost Carroll and have replaced him with Ba. I don't think that constitutes progress, do you? We have lost Nolan, our club captain and goal scorer and replaced him with Cabaye, who looks promising but is a bit of an unknown quantity. Let's call it evens. We have lost Campbell (essential cover at centre back) and got Marveaux (cover for wings with first team potential but also massive crock potential). All in all we haven't done too badly, but we've gone backwards in attack and defense, and (hopefully) improved in midfield. We have also not spent any major transfer funds. As I have argued before, I am relatively happy so far, but don't come and tell me you are happy if this is how the window closes..? Well, Ba For Carroll. Yes, Carroll was unstoppable for us first half of last season. Got to remember he missed a lot of the 2nd half through injury. How many games would we have got out of him? Ba's record was/is very good. So we've lost a good player, but replaced him with one. Campbell - essential? Come on. He was shocking all but 1 game for us. He's finished. As for Nolan, from a playing perspective, i didnt shed any tears to see him go. If Cabaye is the footballer he is made out to be, we will be a lot more mobile in the middle next year and hopefull Tiote wont have to do the running of to men. Add to that the return of Ben Arfa, Meaveux, Gosling and potentially Vuckic, i'd say (on paper) we looking stronger. Just lack a little depth. Again, there is still two months to go before the window ends too. I just dont get all the doom and gloom. I for one, cant wait for the new season. How much Carroll played second half of last season is irrelevant to whether we have become stronger in the striker department since the start of last season. Surely you understand that? Campbell was essential cover, not because he was an excellent option, but because by letting him go we now have no cover if anything happens to Colo, Williamson or Taylor. It does not take John Terry to replace him but since he's gone and we've not got anybody else in to step up when injuries hit us in central defense, we've gone backwards in this area. Surely this is no too complicated? Ben Arfa and Vuckic were here last season and both were fit to play, so they are irrelevant in a comparison. I will give you Gosling, even though it is entirely unsure after nearly 2 years on the sidelines he will ever fulfill his potential with us. Anyway, I already conceded so far we look slightly stronger in midfield than at the start of last season, but we have gone backwards in defense and attack. The two months we still have are irrelevant to the argument as you yourself stated: Which I demonstrated to you is very debatable. Even then, if you are happy to be optimistic about the possible incomings in the next two months, surely you will permit me to be cautious with respect to possible outgoings. After all, we all know what is likely to happen if decent bids come in for Barton, Enrique and even the likes of Colo, Jonas and Tiote.

Whether we are currently stronger than we started last season is very debatable.. How exactly? We have lost Carroll and have replaced him with Ba. I don't think that constitutes progress, do you? We have lost Nolan, our club captain and goal scorer and replaced him with Cabaye, who looks promising but is a bit of an unknown quantity. Let's call it evens. We have lost Campbell (essential cover at centre back) and got Marveaux (cover for wings with first team potential but also massive crock potential). All in all we haven't done too badly, but we've gone backwards in attack and defense, and (hopefully) improved in midfield. We have also not spent any major transfer funds. As I have argued before, I am relatively happy so far, but don't come and tell me you are happy if this is how the window closes..?

Whether we are currently stronger than we started last season is very debatable..

Maybe it's not the best thing to announce all of your intentions for the world to see? How would you phrase that statement about wanting to shift deadwood if you were Pardew? "Yeah we've got some absolute turd players here, we're looking to unload them on some unwitting saps. Then we'll see about replacing them with upgrades." "We are looking to bring in one or two players who significantly strengthen important areas in our first team, and possibly a few promising youngsters who we would slowly blood in, depending on whether we can sell some of the current players on our books who have been told they don't have a future at the club" Easy peasy Japanese.. Like the club would say that. Has any other club released a statement like that? Statements saying players have been told they don't have a future at a club happen all the time. Links please. Here's 36,6 million links for you: http://www.google.nl/search?q=told+he+has+no+future+at+the+club&hl=nl&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=ivns&ei=d2oOTuqYIovsObXp2KIL&start=40&sa=N&biw=1440&bih=764 I will let you find the best examples yourself.. So you can't find many then, despite them apparently happening all the time. Seriously..? Have you never seen or heard an interview with a manager or a player where they mentioned somebody has no future at the club? Let me just give you one example that you should be able to recognise. Remember what Pardew had to say about Routledge when the club foolishly decided to let him leave the club on loan without bringing in a replacement (seems they weren't so worried about letting players go before bringing in new players strangely enough btw..): He was already out the door at QPR by then, he doesn't say that he has to shift him on to be able to bring other players in either, just that we should aim for better. Where are these quotes that apparently happen all of the time when a manager says he's told players they have no future at the club and depending on them leaving he will be able to bring in replacements? Fo f***'s sake Baggio, I think you've completely lost what you were trying to say and are now just arguing for the sake of it.. I said: Note, I did not argue that the club needs to shift deadwood. You did this yourself, when you said: Anyway, Thomas replied to my point about the club having an option to be up front about it if they felt the needed to sell before they buy (something I do not agree with, but you seemingly do): And I phrased it in a way that would be not too disrespectful to the players involved (especially if they had been told internally before) and would clarify such a course of action to the fans (again: I would personally not condone such a course of action, so all hypothetical as far as I am concerned. I was just arguing your corner for a second, which you seem to have overlooked). To which you replied: I then retorted: That's when you decided to go all POIDH on me, and I showed you proof, first by giving you millions of links to articles of players who had been told (reportedly) they didn't have a future at the club, and then when you still failed to grasp my point, by pointing to a recent real case example from within our own club. This was a statement from our very own manager concerning one of our very own players (which he still is; the fact the quotes were after he left on loan to QPR (how respectful btw; what was he trying to achieve?) does not change the fact Routledge is still on our books and has been told he is surplus to requirements, not in a private meeting, but on national radio no less). I have not said that this is often said in combination with a 25 man squad argument, or a sell before buy announcement, because it isn't. Nor have I argued the statement would normally come directly from the manager, or be an official press release from a club. I was asked how Pardew could have politically phrased such an argument if he wanted to (once again: your/his argument, not mine!) and I did. Now you are trying to make it look like I am the one advocating your ridiculous statement and then scorn me for it..? Great tactic if it wasn't so logically flawed. Or, to make a longs story short: you said this yourself, which is the very same point you are arguing with me over now..:

Maybe it's not the best thing to announce all of your intentions for the world to see? How would you phrase that statement about wanting to shift deadwood if you were Pardew? "Yeah we've got some absolute turd players here, we're looking to unload them on some unwitting saps. Then we'll see about replacing them with upgrades." "We are looking to bring in one or two players who significantly strengthen important areas in our first team, and possibly a few promising youngsters who we would slowly blood in, depending on whether we can sell some of the current players on our books who have been told they don't have a future at the club" Easy peasy Japanese.. Like the club would say that. Has any other club released a statement like that? Statements saying players have been told they don't have a future at a club happen all the time. Links please. Here's 36,6 million links for you: http://www.google.nl/search?q=told+he+has+no+future+at+the+club&hl=nl&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=ivns&ei=d2oOTuqYIovsObXp2KIL&start=40&sa=N&biw=1440&bih=764 I will let you find the best examples yourself.. So you can't find many then, despite them apparently happening all the time. Seriously..? Have you never seen or heard an interview with a manager or a player where they mentioned somebody has no future at the club? Let me just give you one example that you should be able to recognise. Remember what Pardew had to say about Routledge when the club foolishly decided to let him leave the club on loan without bringing in a replacement (seems they weren't so worried about letting players go before bringing in new players strangely enough btw..):

Like the 'no capital outlay this summer' quotes before we went out and signed Tiote and Ben Arfa? Surely that should tell you not to jump to conclusions from quotes and statements. Oh, I don't need to go back until the summer to find some quotes that have later been proved to be misleading, and I'm sure neither would you if you tried real hard to remember what happened in January.. Fact is there is no reason for these quotes or the one you just mentioned from last year other than to gradually lower our expectations. We spend what, 3 or 4 million last summer, on our return to the Premier League after being relegated the year before? Whoopifuckingdoo.. At the same time there's no need to say that they're trying to shift on dead wood to free up space for new players (if that is the case) if the only benefit of it is to stop people from spending all of their time on messageboards over analysing every comment to death. To be honest, I sometimes think the people at the club should communicate more and better with the fans, but if all they can come out with is bollocks like this from Pardew it makes me wonder if we're all not better off if they just shut up and implemented their great "five year plan" in silence... (When are we supposed to be "challenging for everything" again Derek?) We won't be challenging for anything major with the huge spenders about, we simply can't compete with them. I've accepted it, perhaps you should too. I won't. There's the main difference between you and me in a nutshell. You will happily settle for mediocrity, whereas I will quite happily hold them to their promise or point out where they fail until the day they either accomplish in what should be their ambition with the club or the day they sell up and fuck off..

Maybe it's not the best thing to announce all of your intentions for the world to see? How would you phrase that statement about wanting to shift deadwood if you were Pardew? "Yeah we've got some absolute turd players here, we're looking to unload them on some unwitting saps. Then we'll see about replacing them with upgrades." "We are looking to bring in one or two players who significantly strengthen important areas in our first team, and possibly a few promising youngsters who we would slowly blood in, depending on whether we can sell some of the current players on our books who have been told they don't have a future at the club" Easy peasy Japanese.. Like the club would say that. Has any other club released a statement like that? Statements saying players have been told they don't have a future at a club happen all the time. Links please. Here's 36,6 million links for you: http://www.google.nl/search?q=told+he+has+no+future+at+the+club&hl=nl&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=ivns&ei=d2oOTuqYIovsObXp2KIL&start=40&sa=N&biw=1440&bih=764 I will let you find the best examples yourself..

Like the 'no capital outlay this summer' quotes before we went out and signed Tiote and Ben Arfa? Surely that should tell you not to jump to conclusions from quotes and statements. Oh, I don't need to go back until the summer to find some quotes that have later been proved to be misleading, and I'm sure neither would you if you tried real hard to remember what happened in January.. Fact is there is no reason for these quotes or the one you just mentioned from last year other than to gradually lower our expectations. We spend what, 3 or 4 million last summer, on our return to the Premier League after being relegated the year before? Whoopifuckingdoo.. At the same time there's no need to say that they're trying to shift on dead wood to free up space for new players (if that is the case) if the only benefit of it is to stop people from spending all of their time on messageboards over analysing every comment to death. To be honest, I sometimes think the people at the club should communicate more and better with the fans, but if all they can come out with is bollocks like this from Pardew it makes me wonder if we're all not better off if they just shut up and implemented their great "five year plan" in silence... (When are we supposed to be "challenging for everything" again Derek?)

Maybe it's not the best thing to announce all of your intentions for the world to see? How would you phrase that statement about wanting to shift deadwood if you were Pardew? "Yeah we've got some absolute turd players here, we're looking to unload them on some unwitting saps. Then we'll see about replacing them with upgrades." "We are looking to bring in one or two players who significantly strengthen important areas in our first team, and possibly a few promising youngsters who we would slowly blood in, depending on whether we can sell some of the current players on our books who have been told they don't have a future at the club" Easy peasy Japanese.. Like the club would say that. Has any other club released a statement like that? Statements saying players have been told they don't have a future at a club happen all the time.

Like the 'no capital outlay this summer' quotes before we went out and signed Tiote and Ben Arfa? Surely that should tell you not to jump to conclusions from quotes and statements. Oh, I don't need to go back until the summer to find some quotes that have later been proved to be misleading, and I'm sure neither would you if you tried real hard to remember what happened in January.. Fact is there is no reason for these quotes or the one you just mentioned from last year other than to gradually lower our expectations. We spend what, 3 or 4 million last summer, on our return to the Premier League after being relegated the year before? Whoopifuckingdoo..

Maybe it's not the best thing to announce all of your intentions for the world to see? How would you phrase that statement about wanting to shift deadwood if you were Pardew? "Yeah we've got some absolute turd players here, we're looking to unload them on some unwitting saps. Then we'll see about replacing them with upgrades." "We are looking to bring in one or two players who significantly strengthen important areas in our first team, and possibly a few promising youngsters who we would slowly blood in, depending on whether we can sell some of the current players on our books who have been told they don't have a future at the club" Easy peasy Japanese..