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It's an interesting point but one i don't agree with. And a lot of it is down to the same reasoning I used with Messi.....goalkeepers these days are so overprotected compared to how it used to be....keepers really were fair game. Try and witness Villa beating Manchester United in the 58 Cup Final, pointedly the "goal" Peter McParland wins it with for Villa. There isnt a cat in hells chance it would stand today. If Banks or Shilton or even Ray Clemence played today, they'd start for England. Surely your point strengthens tmonkeys? If 'keepers get more protection now, as well as being better shot stoppers etc then surely it's harder to score against them now? I didn't say they were better shot stoppers today, because in my opinion they aren't. Keepers had to be stronger then. They'd come and claim crosses and corners far more and as rev said; they caught the ball and not punched. They also would try not to parry, but if they had to, they'd go at the ball with the correct hand unlike many keepers today.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Should've read this first I guess...I agree with your Grandad.

It's an interesting point but one i don't agree with. And a lot of it is down to the same reasoning I used with Messi.....goalkeepers these days are so overprotected compared to how it used to be....keepers really were fair game. Try and witness Villa beating Manchester United in the 58 Cup Final, pointedly the "goal" Peter McParland wins it with for Villa. There isnt a cat in hells chance it would stand today. If Banks or Shilton or even Ray Clemence played today, they'd start for England.

That French side, just to prove your point had two fantastic centre halves in Bossis and Tresor too.

Remember watching him on World of Sport a few times playing for New York Cosmos alongside Beckenbauer, Chinaglia and Steve Hunt.

Stricter rules and referees have allowed Messi to be kicked an awful lot less than his predecessors. And that's a good thing. We want to see the best players on the pitch . Pele, as the spiritual leader of the greatest team in history, and a career which lasted 4 World Cups, 2 of which he was continuously assaulted on the pitch to prevent him from playing, is the greatest player of all time. GB's point is a good one too. Everybody renembers the Rossis and Kempes' of the World, few recall the Scireas and the Passarellas.

Would agree from a certain perspective, though what always peevs me re this debate is how defensive players, or less 'creative' players are always left out or at best an after thought. For me the greatest footballer of all time is Beckenbaeur. The manner of his play, his leadership, what he gave to his sides marks him above (just) the others. Breitner, Lahm, Moore, Baresi, Maldini, Cannavarro All true greats but rarely get a mention as individuals. Pele, Cruyff, Messi,Platini,Di Stefano, Best, Ronaldo all magnificent creative and exciting players, and to some degree imo the debate is a fatuous one. Creativity and forward play v defensive play, which is just as vital to a team. I adored the 82 side of Brazil, Zico et al where stunning, but they won nowt. France of the 80s with Tigana, Giressse etc played a great brand and simply entertained as well. The Dutch side of 88 won and played a great brand. Do you have to be one of the forwards to be in the top ten? Also to be a great, or considered one of the best do you have to have played at the highest level internationally? if so bye bye Best, Di Stefano. Probably I would say, to have tested yourself at the highest level. As for Maradona, well its churlish to question his inclusion on footballing grounds...or is it? Whatwever discretions he had, drug abuse, and who's to say that wasn't prior to 94? On the field he produced magic, but on the field he also deliberatley cheated and lied about cheating. To be a great it's about the full package for me. Being true and honest to the sport you represent. You may have the talent you may have the titles or accolades but if they are tainted by cheating (Armstrong etc), or sullied by on field and off field actions then a question mark hangs over you imo. Maradona should not have been on the field to score that wonder goal. One of the best individual goals I have ever seen, but he should have been sent off for deliberate cheating before it ever happened. Thats why for me he is poison and despite his 'great' play his reputation is blackened. Just as Henry's is, he knew, he lied and he cheated. They both cheated the sport they professionally represented. That discounts them as being considered the greatest ever imo. Messi is alraedy up there amongst the Ronaldo's, Cruyff's and Pele's for me and if he wins it with a fairly average side then his status will surely be confirmed. 100% agree. Great post. Edit: You can't mention the France team of the 80s and miss out Platini's name though.[emoji1]

Cruyff was the most dominant of his time definitely, though his time was shorter due to disputes with the Dutch FA.Had he played in 78 , Holland would almost certainly have won it .

Pele was a more complete player than Messi is. As Tooj said, two footed and power to add to the artistry.

Yet you could easily say would Messi have survived the brutality that Pele or Maradona faced? Think I posted something on here a while ago why I firmly believe Pele is the greatest of all time, simply because he is the most complete player to have ever played the game and for me that still stands. This is coming from a massive Messi fanboy as well btw. (Ask Shak ) Just about to post this. Spot on. Maradona also gets some leeway here. The game was physically harder in their day. Both were kicked from pillar to post. These days that doesn't happen to anywhere near the same regularity.

Him and us belong together.

That's your opinion and all power to you. However I don't believe Champions league is superior to International tournament football. The only thing about International football that is shite is the friendlies.

I think he slots in the upper echelon of the group below Pele and Maradona. However he could join them with a match winning performance in Sunday.

Ron Vlaar would easily be the best central defender at Manchester United. I think he could go higher personally. Chelsea will need a Terry replacement at some point. Would also make a good partner for Kompany.

The one you hosted in 82 is comfortably the best World Cup I've seen in my lifetime, and I started as a six year old in 74. 90 is second best and 78 third. My dad says that's the only tournament he actually shed some tears for Brazil going out. He says 5th of July is the worst date he's experienced as a Brazilian football fan and says that yesterdays loss comes close but is still eclipsed by that loss. Mate, they were so special. I'll never forget watching the Scotland game.....another Friday night job. And the Ghillie Jockoes having the cheek to take the lead...you could actually see the hackles rise and they proceeded to tear therm apart

The one you hosted in 82 is comfortably the best World Cup I've seen in my lifetime, and I started as a six year old in 74. 90 is second best and 78 third. Northern Ireland likes this. Remember that Friday night game and Billy Hamilton and Gerry Armstrong. I remember giggling like the schoolboy I was when Lopez Ufarte had his name mentioned and also the ridiculous style the Spanish players tucked the sides of their shorts in so they looked like nappies. Aside from that it was about Brazil playing stuff I'd never seen the likes of and Argentina failing miserably for them but hilariously for us whilst they were getting schooled in the South Atlanitic by HM Armed Forces.

The one you hosted in 82 is comfortably the best World Cup I've seen in my lifetime, and I started as a six year old in 74. 90 is second best and 78 third.

That and Vlaar taking the first pen were idiotic managerial decisions. You've got a keeper stood there knowing the manager doesn't think he's any good at saving pens. I mean, what could go wrong sending an Aston Villa central defender to take a pen in a shoot out?

Falk off. They're ours.

Shit cross from Bo Dallas.

Wouldn't want to share a sandwich with him though.

Cillesen looks like Stuart Broad.

Is Ron Vlaar the only footballer whose surname is how the locals pronounce the club he plays for?

You speak as though Brazil have had no no nonsense defenders. On the contrary, they've had many over the years. David Luiz is the exception to the rule....he clearly is a very talented footballer just not as a centre back.

It's quite obvious when you look back at events in history to be able to pinpoint why events occur. I've looked into it and I think it's clear that Brazil just haven't been the same since Ron left. However fair play to The Sun for getting him back here to finish his sentence.