Hughesy

Care to point to some examples where he hasn't worked hard for the team? Wasn't really the point - more pointing out that it is perfectly acceptable to expect talent and industry. The point is that it's perhaps a bit of a myth that HBA is lazy. Also you don't get many players with the flair of Beardsley that will chase down every ball like a total lunatic. For example Bergkamp was clearly a pretty impeccable professional but you could be forgiven for thinking he was a bit aloof at times. Suppose I'm saying it's not black and white, just because he doesn't work as hard as Beardsley doesn't mean he doesn't put the work in that you'd expect of a flair player. I agree that stereotypical flair player doesn't chase down every ball. But chasing down every ball is something that can be taught/encouraged without a marked downturn in that flair player's effectiveness. But it is difficult to teach a hard worker to become more talented. FWIW - I want Ben Arfa to play.

Care to point to some examples where he hasn't worked hard for the team? Wasn't really the point - more pointing out that it is perfectly acceptable to expect talent and industry.

What I don't quite understand is why people seem to think you can only have talent or hard work. Beardsley combined both and Ben arfa isn't fit to lace his boots. There is no reason why Ben arfa should be exempted from hard work because he is talented. He should be encouraged (or told) to work for the team and get on with it.

Pards opening himself up to be shot down by talking about MON's 5 man midfield tactics there. So you know what they're going to do then there's not much excuse if we don't cope with it really is there? Might be better sticking to discussing your own team methinks. That's more than a little bit simplistic. Just because you know how a team is going to line up doesn't stop the fact that: a) tactics may not work. For example, just because they line up with a five man midfield, does that mean we should match their men in midfield? Obviously playing 4-4-2 gives you certain advantages over 4-5-1 in certain situations (4-5-1 does over 4-4-2) so Pardew might decide to stick to the system we have been using all season and see if Sunderland want to worry about our formation. b) our players underperforming or their players overperforming.

He doesn't really say anything wrong, but if there's a bandwagon to be leapt on..

Where was this? Dave - you do this every time. You know as well as everyone else that there a number of posters who have suggested that Pardew should be replaced at the end of the season or be 'upgraded' or only given a bit longer to ptove himself. I don't think it is a massive leap for to generalise this as 'wanting Pardew replaced'. It is riddiculously pedantic to keep poiinting out that not everyone is saying sack Pardew now.

It is not a bad indicator to be fair. I think usually the best indicator... Certainly better than some subjective judgement about where a team 'should' be finishing, based on a fairly woolly assessment of the merits of the players of every squad in the league.

If we are constantly revising expectations - at what point would Pardew ever get praise for what he has achieved? I don't quite follow how preseason expectations were, for the sake of argument, 8th-11th, we are currently in 6th (3 points off 4th) and now people are suggesting that actually we have a squad (which we clearly don't) that should be in 6th by virtue of its quality and that therefore Pardew is, at best, matching expectations. It doesn't make sense! At what point is any of the success attributed to Pardew and as part of a wider point, at what time is any success attributed to any manager? Or by virtue of its current league position, is each team achieving what it should be because expectations have been revised? In summary, what I am trying to say is that it seems as if people have had an initial opinion, seen that we are now doing better than that original opinion, and decided that that is definitve proof that actually our squad is better than originally predicted and we are merely at par. And that this improvement is solely down to the innate ability of the players in the squad and has been achieved in spite of our manager?

I think we do. I would make 2 caveats in stating this. First I don't think that Everton and Villa are that far behind on a man for man analysis of their squads and have underachieved this season. Second, as I have pointed out numerous times now, I think there is a very sizeable gap between us in a notional 7th place and Liverpool/Arsenal in 6th. I know it is quite fashionable on here to knock Liverpool, but it is clear they have a good deal more strength in depth than we do. Same goes for Arsenal.

I want to know where all these people who are now saying 6th is a bare minimum for our league position were at the beginning of the season. Because I don't remember there being many ppl, if any, who said that. And that was with the squad as it now is, bar Cisse. Expectations have shot through the roof as a result of our start. We do not have s squad close to the top 6. So to be where we are is a great achievement.

I'm all for being positive, but do people genuinely believe that our SQUAD is even close to the strength of Man City, Man Utd, Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool? Becuase it really really isn't.

Prophet has nailed it. Absolutely spot on.

Incorrect! You must be either Pardew's biggest fan (WE'RE SIXTH) or want him sacked immediately. Pick a side. What is ridiculous is that it feels like it has degenerated into exactly that type of argument as each 'side' gets more and more entrenched in its views. I am 'pro-Pardew' but can see he isn't perfect and has his flaws. Without getting into a playground style argument, i think that the 'pro Pardew' element on this forum are the same - they recognise that he makes mistakes, but can take a more objective look at what he has achieved and the circumstances in which he has achieved it.

What do you expect after a couple of defeats? There are more negatives than positives so those on one side of the argument are inevitably going to have more strings to their arguments. If we'd come in off the back of a 4-0 win today, those defending Pardew would have more than "Well we're sixth" "Poor squad" etc. We could look at the CC normal time and FA Cup game against Blackburn, 2-2 against Spurs etc. as signs of our grit and determination as a team (we're performing with a never-say-die attitude at times), the 3-0 against Man U to show that narrow, direct tactics can result in a good performance/result, the 3-1 against Stoke to show how our rigid, organised, counter attacking football can really damage a team, Blackburn and Villa wins in recent weeks to show that we can grind out a result even whilst under pressure. The thought that we've chanced our way to 6th and the majority of our play this season has been poor is ludicrous. You can't get to challenging in the top 6 on luck alone, and in spite of the manager. It just doesn't happen. We've been very poor in recent weeks, and the football isn't great, but that doesn't negate the whole season. Excellent post - I would add that it is much easier it is to be critical of something and point out negatives than it is to point out positives. There are a whole host of things that we do well and that are positive about Pardew's management - many of which you have pointed out. Who genuinely would have thought that a team including Perch, Simpson, williamson, Shola, Best etc could be 6th? There certainly weren't many on here willing to stick their neck on the line at the beginning of the season. There is no way that our squad is currently a top 6 squad and if we manage to get into the top 6 come May a huge amount of credit has to go to Pardew.

Our players are better than 6th?? I've heard it all now. Priceless stuff.

Can't really reply at length to HTT or Wullie's posts as on Blackberry (and on holiday - this hasn't helped my mood), but there is some fantastic revisionist history going on about Hughton's reign. I can remember many a match under Hughton where we were bloody awful, certainly as bad as anything served up by Pardew (blackpool, west brom, bolton???). Some of the examples given are questionable as well. Not sure why any matches in the Championship should even be considered for obvious reasons. Villa - we played a Villa team without a manager and they could have been out of sight in the first few mins we were that bad. Lucky Carew took that penalty. Arsenal - but for Krul's brilliance we would have lost that. Good backs to the wall performance, but not a tactical masterclass in any way. Rose tinted glasses on that performance or you didn't see it. I'd also love to know what this ideology you think we had under hughton... Anyway - genuinely can't be arsed debating Pardew anymore on here. If you spole to any non-NUFC fan and told them that there were a significant proportion of people advocating his sacking they would think you were mental. Unbelievable stuff.

HTT - we did not pay better football under Hughton or display better tactics. Absolute tosh.

I'd love someone to actually come up with a viable alternative to Pards. The silence is deafening.

Spot on.

Your following the wrong team I feel your pain though. Not sure ill ever witness our team win something in my life time. I was thinking this the other day. Call me sentimental, but I really really want to see us win something with my dad and my brother. I want to share the joy of actually winning a trophy with the man responsible for bringing so much pain and torture into my life..!

Seconded. It's like repeatedly banging your head against a brick wall. A bit painful and ultimately futile.

That's a bit of a patronising view to be honest - people certainly don't need to look at why they watch football because they might think that the team is better served playing Obertan or Taylor ahead of Ben Arfa. I watch NUFC to see them win first and foremost and to a degree that is all I care about. I don't really that fussed about how we do it. In an ideal world -yes, I would like us to play in exciting matches, but that is very much secondary to the end result.

Expectations change. If all we are to base them on is the fact that we were in the second tier two years ago then losing every remaining game this season couldn't be seen as a failure because we've already got enough points to stay up. Very true - but I can't think of many place where expectations go from hoping/wanting to stay up to solidfying a place in the top 6 with a view to having a crack at the top 4 within 2 seasons. That is ludicrous.

Without naming any, I think we are in a far better position than a year or two ago as far as that is concerned. I would just like someone who thinks we can do better than Pards to actually name someone. No-one seems to want to do it. Oddly enough. A waste of time, considering how narrow minded you are. What an inventive way to avoid naming someone.

Without naming any, I think we are in a far better position than a year or two ago as far as that is concerned. I would just like someone who thinks we can do better than Pards to actually name someone. No-one seems to want to do it. Oddly enough.