Hughesy

That's one of the key points. People keep assuming that by playing a more defensive system Pardew has somehow cost us points. How do we not know that Pardew's caution has not won points during this season? You make a good point, however I'd add that good management is about knowing when to adopt certain strategies, not deciding on one and sticking to it stubbornly whether it works or not. We've had our fair share of managers who've done that here recently so a lot of people are wise to the pit falls, good league position or not. At home to Wolves, Swansea, QPR for example, you play your best attacking players and have a go. So whilst I'd say Pardew's defensive approach has certainly won us points this season, the points away at QPR, Man U and Blackburn particularly, where the defensively minded drilled capabilities of our team helped us grind out results, i think he's cost us just as many points if not more by being too cautious. Totally agree with you. Was just trying present the other side of the coin.

That's one of the key points. People keep assuming that by playing a more defensive system Pardew has somehow cost us points. How do we not know that Pardew's caution has not won points during this season?

This is one of my main gripes with the SJP crowd like, there was people shouting for Krul to shoot yesterday from the half way line ffs One of my main gripes with the SJP crowd is the people who take "shoooooooooot" seriously. Yeah - I don't think it actually made Krul think 'they've got a point there, might have a pop from here'.

This exactly - I find it endlessly fascinating that one player can look so brilliant one minute and so awful the next. It's just so frustrating that his career couldn't have worked out better as he really does have a lot of the attributes required to have been a very good player.

In an ideal world, Tiote shouldn't have to react the way he has done to ensure Sessegnon was sent off. But let's remember that Sessegnon was the guy who hit Tiote and it was undeniably a red card offence. If Tiote feels he has to exaggerate the contact to ensure that Sessegnon is sent off, I can't see that there is much wrong with that. It is only a completely different level to a) the actual striking by Sessegnon/tackle by Cattermole and b) feigning injury when no contact has actually been made.

Just One will do. That hurts...

Was unaware that each and every post had to make a stunning contribution.

We clearly had improved massively defensively over last season though. Before Saylors injury only Spurs & Manchester city managed to score more than one goal against us in 13 games, thats a ridiculous record. They both needed penalties to achieve that. Only chelsea managed it with 2 goals in the last minute after we lost Colo on 25 mins & Saylor at the end also. Pardew earns no faith achieving that? Because thats a crazy record with our defence. Giving a chance to youngsters like Vuckic, Abeid etc isnt an improvement in terms of ideas? Or trying Jonas in the middle which actually worked nicely for a period wasnt a sign hes willing to think outside the box? Hes done more for our setup defensively than in terms of creating flowing football sure, but as i say look at the defense hes working with. If he believes we'll score regardless as we had been, does it not make sense to sway parts of the side toward covering your weakest link? A balanced side is more stable than one which relies on one or the other isnt it? There'll be some reason why those positives don't count. Just give it a few mins..

I don't think anybody does disregard our league position, I just think some people see past it while still recognising it as being the most important measurement of where we are. Fair enough, however I don't think that everyone is recognising it as the most important measurement of where we are. Or there wouldn't be some many people suggesting he is nothing more than average manager who is tactically and/or that we should look to upgrade our manager in the near future. Please note I am paraphrasing general sentiments there from a wide range of people.. Not many people are calling for Pardew to be sacked, but people are rightly questioning his tactics and team selections. Also people are questioning the same stuff which West Ham and Southampton fans had about him so there is a pattern emerging here. For the record, we won't get a better manager while the fat b****** still owns this club or he offers a ridiculous wage to a manager but I'm having big doubts about his man-management and his hoofball tactics. I think he makes mistakes in his tactics and team selection - but then to a certain degree, all managers do. I do however think he gets more right than he gets wrong. In addition, I wouldn't argue with that many of his decisions. Not picking Ben Arfa more regularly is one where I think he has got it wrong (although I can see why he has made the decisions he has on occasions). Resorting to a direct style of play in the last 2 months has been a mistake, but we weren't playing like that earlier in the season. I genuinely don't think it is a tactic per se, but more a result of the deficiencies in our personnel (Simpson, Williamson etc), the arrival of the Africa Nations Cup and injuries and suspensions suffered (most importantly Cabaye and Saylor). However, he has got a lot right.

I don't think anybody does disregard our league position, I just think some people see past it while still recognising it as being the most important measurement of where we are. Fair enough, however I don't think that everyone is recognising it as the most important measurement of where we are. Or there wouldn't be some many people suggesting he is nothing more than average manager who is tactically and/or that we should look to upgrade our manager in the near future. Please note I am paraphrasing general sentiments there from a wide range of people..

Love the way that O'Neill dragged the 4th official in front of him to protect him from the raging Pards after our penalty was given..!

You should have just done what Jon did when he couldn't back up something he said and just said that it was me. Sorry - it was you..! To be honest, I am more than happy to have a reasoned discussion on Pardew's strengths and weaknesses, as I recognise that he has both. But I do feel many of the good things Pardew has done are overlooked, regarded as being unattributable to him or expected. In addition, I think it is too simplistic to overlook the position we are actually in. We are in 6th and could well finish there. For people to disregard this or claim it is a weak argument just doesn't wash with me. But I do agree that league position is not the only indicator to be reviewed (although I find it incredibly hard to not regard it as the most important indicator of success).

Go on then, where's these posts where people say league position doesn't matter or it's the way we play that counts. I am not sure I have the time or inclination to go through all the posts to find specific examples, but those are certainly sentiments that have been expressed by many.

We still hoofed it, but it was mixed with passing, movement and crossing. I don't mind the occassional long ball or direct football but every f***ing time? Krul was getting some abuse where we were sat for lumping it long all the time. Simposn's only tactic in the first half was to clip it wide to the channels where ther was no-one there because Taylor was in midfield and Cisse was being tightly marked. Its awfula and s*** full stop. First half was bad. Very bad. I thought we played some good stuff in the second half.

and that is why santon got subbed, he didnt hoof it for pardew Taking Santon off was a very odd decision. As people have said, should have been Simpson.

You're wasting your breath fella. I know, people will look back on their posts on here with utter f***ing embarrassment! Jeez, there's some fuckwits gan about. I think some of his tactics and decisions are far from perfect, but come on. Realism needs to hit some of these fuckers clean on the nose. 3 good examples of what TRon was going on about earlier. I've yet to see many well-argued, convincing arguments against Pardew apart from ones along the lines of 'we play hoofball', 'league position doesn't matter, it's the way we play that counts' and 'Pardew's so negative, he's costing us points'. All of which can be rebutted.

What about the second half?

If only he had just put his foot through that ball at 94 mins..

It's Williamson's standard way of defending at set pieces, and the ref may have been watching for it. Normally Willo gets very close to his opponent so it's not so obvious who's doing what, but on this occasion he didn't. The other thing that needs some clarity is goalkeepers jumping off the line before a penalty is kicked. Even though it's not allowed, they all manage to get away with it. I'm not saying that Mignolet's save was any more blatant than others that you see, but it's actually not that difficult a law to enforce, and I don't understand why the convention is that refs turn a blind eye. Yeah - don't get me wrong, Williamson does it quite often and it was a foul. But if you are going to give that, then consistency is absolutely crucial.

Not sure if it has already been debated ad nauseam - but referees really need to get some consistency over what constitutes a penalty in the box. Can see why Williamson's foul was a penalty, but I can think of about 5 occasions where similar fouls were committed by Sunderland players. Annoyed me to hear commentators saying it was the right call but ignoring all the other occasions it occurred.

Really struggling to work out what complaints they could possibly have about the ref?

Any level of derision and scorn is acceptable so long as you preface it with "I'm of course happy that we're in sixth, but" because that makes it objective and unbiased.

I really don't approve of play-acting in general, but don't mind nearly as much if you are actually embellishing something that has actually happened. Sessegnon's actions were worthy of a read quite clearly, so I am not that bothered if Tiote 'makes a meal of it' to ensure that the red card is actually given.

Leave it man. Its Pardew lovers against Ben Arfa. Crazy if you follow both threads. Explain my post then? I like Pardew and can see his flaws. I like Ben Arfa and can see his flaws. All along I have said I would play Ben Arfa, but can see reasons why Pardew may not always start. Not that strange a stance. Was quoting Elliotman. Have nothing to do with your opinion. Leave it man. Its Pardew lovers against Ben Arfa. Crazy if you follow both threads. Explain my post then? I like Pardew and can see his flaws. I like Ben Arfa and can see his flaws. All along I have said I would play Ben Arfa, but can see reasons why Pardew may not always start. Not that strange a stance. Was quoting Elliotman. Have nothing to do with your opinion. Fair enough - was obviously getting my wires crossed due to your reaction in the other thread.