Switching full-backs, N'Zogbia, 4-3-3 & Big Sam's thinking?

[Guest optimistic nit]

To your first question HTT. I ask because it's clear you've put in the time and thought to really analyze the future movements of Big Sam. I personally can hardly ever be bothered to type more than one 5 line paragraph. I reckon Sam pays you to be his internet street-team.. telling us he knows what he's doing.

 

I too thought Smith was Viduka's replacement, i'm not so sure anymore. More likely the Dyer replacement.

 

Oba is more likely to nick a goal in an away game where we are under the kosh. He has the ability to score from absolutely nothing, with either foot, from anywhere around the 25 yard area. Owen can't do this, he needs the ball in the box. His inclusion in the team smacks me of someone scared to drop the star player.

 

He's manager of Newcastle United. We have managed to avoid a relegation battle with managers like Souness and Roeder. We aren't getting relegated. We don't need 4-5 short term signings.

 

I think Big Sam is winging it.

 

My thoughts on Big Sam are borne out of close study of him, his methods and watching a hell of a lot of Bolton over the years because I've always thought "he'd do for us" so I like to think I have a good understanding of his methods and what not and an insight into how he thinks.

 

My next victim target is Aidy Boothroyd. 

 

I don't buy into Big Sam's comments about Smith replacing Dyer, as a body maybe, but not positionally. I think he was signed as a striker with the possible intention of letting Ameobi go eventually and maybe to replace Viduka long-term, or both.

 

I think Martins carries arguably our biggest goal threat so I agree, however he does require a number of chances to get on the scoresheet, perhaps more than Owen, and Sam being into his stats and whatnot, perhaps Owen just gets the nod. I'd ditch Owen though and start Martins alongside either Smith or Viduka because of his pace, explosiveness and his ability to harass which Owen rarely does.

 

Regarding Sam whinging it - well this is one job that will find him out so we'll know if he really is whinging it  the longer he is in the job. His Bolton record suggests to me though he's not as daft as he looks. There really is a lot of method to his madness.

 

I don't think Smith was brought in with the idea of letting Ameobi go, I remember quotes from Allardyce when he spoke of his four strikers naming Owen, Viduka, Oba and Shola, he also spoke about English target men and said there was only Crouch, Davies and Ameobi out there.

 

I stand corrected then. I actually thought Ameobi would do well under Big Sam but doesn't seem to get a look in, perhaps the manager doesn't rate him. Interesting he talked about Crouch, maybe we'll be after him in January? Would be a good signing and while this may shock some I'd personally trade Owen for him if that was the deal.

 

On Crouch.

 

I'f you're going to play like monkeys you buy a zoo.

 

I don't get the stick Crouch gets

 

Scores goals - check

Creates goals - check

Works hard - check

Has good technique - check

Good option up front - check

 

Like Sam, he's not as daft as he looks, although ideally I'd prefer a more rounded striker at the club but I certainly wouldn't turn my nose up if we were interested as he's a good proven player ideal for 4-3-3.

 

Pace and movement the lynchpin of the 433 for a forward nocheck.

 

Ah that old chestnut, pace. I prefer mobility and intelligence myself which Crouch has. Centrally pace isn't too important anyway, Davies never had any and Bolton were successful using 4-3-3. Providing you have pace either side of course.

 

I've said before that Crouch playing the same role as Davies did at Bolton would be unstoppable in the air, he's not the best when he needs to get power and direction into a header but for flick on's we'll struggle to find better.

 

Being great in the air is important if you as the striker want to score goals from crosses ala Shearer or Sir Les but if you want to cause havoc for the opposition and create openings for team-mates you don't need to be great in the air, just an ability to flick it on and as Allardyce is big on the second ball, what better player for such a job?

 

Who's he flicking it to out of interest?...All the play is behind him if he's just received a hoof from Enrique.

 

Barton I imagine will be used in a similar way to how Nolan was, the main support of attack from midfield. And if we are playing 4-3-3 I imagine there will be players either side of Crouch, pacy players to get in between the full-backs. It isn't just about flick-ons though, it's about holding the ball up and having a presence centrally to focus opposition minds away from other areas.

 

I see.

 

What worries me about all this systems lark is that we don't have one single forward who has one clue on how to play in a 433 apart from Duff who looks like he's going to be the next permacrock.

 

Then we teach the players we've got to play that way, similar to how he trained Diouf and Anelka to play it when he was at Bolton.

 

That would be ideal but the two players you mention have assets our forwards can only dream about apart from the fact they have a lot of football intelligence compared to the likes of Martins and Milner and the still learning zoggy.

 

In a 433 the forwards are always needing to analyse the game and re-positon so they can make the extra man (the core of the system).

 

We have Owen (goalhanger) Martins (derranged run anywhere shoot if poss). Not ideal.

 

 

 

The crux of our problems. Big Sam can't do what he wants to do, what he knows will work and bring us rewards, because he doesn't have the players. He has tried to fit them in but it's clearly not going to work. He's even compromised and went to 4-4-2 but even then things are not going too well. It's clear to me Allardyce isn't comfortable with 4-4-2 just like his players aren't comfortable with 4-3-3 and sadly for us, they are not too comfortable at 4-4-2 either it seems. We'll know more in January and the following summer.

 

Why cant he do what he wants to do? He had the summer to recruit the players he wanted and needed and he used it very wisely. I always thought of SA as a manager who doesnt compromise and isnt afraid to drop anyone. I personnaly think that its a simple case of this season being transistion.

 

Quoted for truth.

[midds]

I. Hate. Quote. Pyramids.  >

[Parky]

It's nothing to do with transitional its all to do with trying to be too clever.

 

Put yer best players in thier correct positions on the park week in week out for a start. [GordonRamsey/]

[midds]

It's nothing to do with transitional its all to do with trying to be too clever.

 

Put yer best players in thier correct positions on the park week in week out for a start. [GordonRamsey/]

 

Not exactly quantum physics is it?

[TRon]

I read the whole post but I don't really buy it. In a nutshell, this season is supposed to be a training ground for next season and beyond. If you are a season ticket holder why would you pay to watch training sessions on a match day? Especially as Allardyce himself has stated he's in the results business?

 

 

[Parky]

It's nothing to do with transitional its all to do with trying to be too clever.

 

Put yer best players in thier correct positions on the park week in week out for a start. [GordonRamsey/]

 

Not exactly quantum physics is it?

 

Exacertedly.

[midds]

It's nothing to do with transitional its all to do with trying to be too clever.

 

Put yer best players in thier correct positions on the park week in week out for a start. [GordonRamsey/]

 

Not exactly quantum physics is it?

 

Exacertedly.

 

So why can't/won't he do it iyo Parky?

 

Not being arsey, I just wonder why he can't see what thousands of us can. Square pegs, square holes etc.

[Parky]

It's nothing to do with transitional its all to do with trying to be too clever.

 

Put yer best players in thier correct positions on the park week in week out for a start. [GordonRamsey/]

 

Not exactly quantum physics is it?

 

Exacertedly.

 

So why can't/won't he do it iyo Parky?

 

Not being arsey, I just wonder why he can't see what thousands of us can. Square pegs, square holes etc.

 

IMO he's lost some of his vision as a manager under the pressure of moving to us and thus lost some critical distance on his own descisions.

 

We have to accept it will take HIM time to get his balance...It's a big job and there is a lot going on. I seriously think he underestimated what managing us was all about.

 

In some ways he's overcompensating now and seeing problems or forseeing danger when in reality there probably isn't that much of a threat ie bad choices he's made in some away games and the very startling comments about 0-0's.

 

He's also trying to micro-manage too much the postional variations on a very new side who haven't played together much...Far better IMO to give them simpler goals and expectations and postions they like playing in (tinker 20 games in not now).

 

I've got grave doubts about the coaching atm. Play a pass to someone 15 yards away and roll your foot over the ball (crazy I know) don't semi-chip it cause the extra 2 seconds that takes to control the player is closed down (Look at Blackburn today). Crisp positive passing without silly touches (Emre is the worst for this). Give players time to think and appreciate space (Man City).

 

His inner doubts are making him think about the opp too much is the crux of it hence all the conservatism and tinkering.

 

No one has got away with playing narrow football (we don't always do it tbf) in the PL bar Chelsea and had success and thier staff and players are on another planet.

 

 

 

 

 

[midds]

I'd go along with that Parky. It's almost like he's trying TOO hard to come up with something special for each game that will counter the opposition. I think he realises that he's basically on trial and he has to prove his worth as a tactician and has, as you mention, micro-managed things so much that the focus has shifted to coping with the opposition rather than attacking them.

 

I just hope he realises that in trying to be too cute, he's actually hindering his chances of winning the game each week.

 

 

[Parky]

I'd go along with that Parky. It's almost like he's trying TOO hard to come up with something special special for each game that will counter the opposition. I think he realises that he's basically on trial and he has to prove his worth as a tactician and has, as you mention, micro-managed things so much that the focus has shifted to coping with the opposition rather than attacking them.

 

I just hope he realises that in trying to be too cute, he's actually hindering his chances of winning the game each week.

 

 

 

 

 

Use fresh local produce don't over do the sauces let the the simple clean ingredients speak for themselves. 

[midds]

I'd go along with that Parky. It's almost like he's trying TOO hard to come up with something special special for each game that will counter the opposition. I think he realises that he's basically on trial and he has to prove his worth as a tactician and has, as you mention, micro-managed things so much that the focus has shifted to coping with the opposition rather than attacking them.

 

I just hope he realises that in trying to be too cute, he's actually hindering his chances of winning the game each week.

 

 

 

 

 

Use fresh local produce don't over do the sauces let the the simple clean ingredients speak for themselves. 

 

 

Exactly. 

[merlin]

One thing to note, if we give SA the time to buy all the players he wants for a 4-3-3 and then he fails, we're royally f*****. The next manager will have to have ANOTHER overhaul of the squad because he'll most likely be wanting to play a 4-4-2 (as most managers do).

 

On the other hand, if SA can change his mindset and continue with the 4-4-2 then even if he fails, the players will be there for the next manager.

 

The obvious thing to do is bring in another manager who also prefers the 4-3-3 formation.

 

Who? Mourinho?

 

None of the managers we were linked with after Roeder left and who we could possibly attract prefers the 4-3-3. Not Houllier, Eriksson, Van Gaal, Koeman etc.

 

If Ashley gives Sam the cash to spend and SA decides to go with the 4-3-3, there's little room for failure. We'll be left with a squad bereft of players who excel in a 4-4-2 and would struggle to attract a good manager presuming that Allardyce left when we were in the shits.

 

Van Gaal, Houllier and Koeman have all played 4-3-3 at one time or another, it depends on what players they have available.

 

But the idea of not backing Allardyce with transforming his squad to the system he wants to play is just crazy, if that's the way of thinking then we were wrong to give him the job in the first place.

 

Your last sentence is the crux of the whole problem....

We were effectively hamstrung by the Bungling Fat One's final c--k up and we are now between a rock & a hard place as the Yanks say.

[jep]

 

So why can't/won't he do it iyo Parky?

 

Not being arsey, I just wonder why he can't see what thousands of us can. Square pegs, square holes etc.

 

 

 

I think it's just that he's trying to make quadrilateral trapezoid holes and pegs, really.

[fredbob]

It's nothing to do with transitional its all to do with trying to be too clever.

 

Put yer best players in thier correct positions on the park week in week out for a start. [GordonRamsey/]

 

Kinda have to disagree with that, Real Madrid have been suffering that 'theory' for years now. For me, its a cae of tryin to enforce a system of play which is uncomfortable to the players that he has at his disposable, his ideal system at home would be 433, now anyone on this board could fill about 8/9 of those positions without hesitation "with the best players" but if you look at the Bolton set up at the end, you see that the players he had all fitted in his system perfectly.

 

For example, if you look at the forward line of Stellios, Davies/Anelka(?), Diouf. (Cant remember how Anelka fitted in), you have  3 forwards who have roles which suit there style of play. Stellios are the hard working grafting forwards who get back and niggle, and you have the out and out striker who is able to knock on the ball for long balls while the 2 forwards make advanced runs, Now if you look at our frontline, we have no one like that. I.e, grafting forwards who work non stop, support the midfield and are able to get in the box and make advanced runs, we dont have that, we have owen and Martins, they certainly arent this type of player.

 

Now you might try and argue that Zog and Milner could play there, and again i dont agree , when defence turns to attack and you require 2 forwards who are able to play inside the opposition box, put themselves about physically and provide a potent threat, you still arent gonna get that from Zog and Milner, whereas you will get that from Diouf and Stellios. For me its the frontline that is causing the problems for the rest of the squad, if he wanted to play the 3 in midfield then he be able to do that, no problms, he has the players to do so, the backline whilst not exactly organsied and water tight definetely has a very good combinations of players.

 

So, for me its a case of Allardyce not being able to play the type of system he wants, his style of play is not suited to the system he's trying to implement. Its a big problem because SA is specialized at playing one type of system and play. If you were to ask Ferguson or Wenger to play percentage long ball football they'd fail, when Mourihno was asked to play open attacking football he struggled to implement it. The same thing is happening with SA, he's either tryong to play his style into an unfamiliar system and struggling (Long ball, 442 Sunderland?) or he's trying to play an unfamilar style of play with an unfmailar system (passing game, 442 Reading). As of yt he actually hasnt had one game to play his preffered system with the right players.

 

[Parky]

It's nothing to do with transitional its all to do with trying to be too clever.

 

Put yer best players in thier correct positions on the park week in week out for a start. [GordonRamsey/]

 

Kinda have to disagree with that, Real Madrid have been suffering that 'theory' for years now. For me, its a cae of tryin to enforce a system of play which is uncomfortable to the players that he has at his disposable, his ideal system at home would be 433, now anyone on this board could fill about 8/9 of those positions without hesitation "with the best players" but if you look at the Bolton set up at the end, you see that the players he had all fitted in his system perfectly.

 

For example, if you look at the forward line of Stellios, Davies/Anelka(?), Diouf. (Cant remember how Anelka fitted in), you have  3 forwards who have roles which suit there style of play. Stellios are the hard working grafting forwards who get back and niggle, and you have the out and out striker who is able to knock on the ball for long balls while the 2 forwards make advanced runs, Now if you look at our frontline, we have no one like that. I.e, grafting forwards who work non stop, support the midfield and are able to get in the box and make advanced runs, we dont have that, we have owen and Martins, they certainly arent this type of player.

 

Now you might try and argue that Zog and Milner could play there, and again i dont agree , when defence turns to attack and you require 2 forwards who are able to play inside the opposition box, put themselves about physically and provide a potent threat, you still arent gonna get that from Zog and Milner, whereas you will get that from Diouf and Stellios. For me its the frontline that is causing the problems for the rest of the squad, if he wanted to play the 3 in midfield then he be able to do that, no problms, he has the players to do so, the backline whilst not exactly organsied and water tight definetely has a very good combinations of players.

 

So, for me its a case of Allardyce not being able to play the type of system he wants, his style of play is not suited to the system he's trying to implement. Its a big problem because SA is specialized at playing one type of system and play. If you were to ask Ferguson or Wenger to play percentage long ball football they'd fail, when Mourihno was asked to play open attacking football he struggled to implement it.

 

I agree with you as well. I could see after the Wigan game although we won it and created a hatful of chances due mainly to their mistakes and the sending off we weren't creating the right kind of chances, we couldn't really carve them up as we failed to do with Derby and Reading. So with the current players his system or variations of it will continue to misfire. I'm saying he should go to plan B ditch the system for now and play 442 and put the players where they want to play and play to our strengths.

[fredbob]

I absolutely agree, i think htis squad defnintely needs to play 442, the reason i say its transistional is because he wont be able to get the forwards he wants in the jan transfer window, and so he'll need to get them in the summer. I also dont think SA will be able to play 442, i just dont think he can implement a style of play to fit the system in order to utilizes the 3 qulaity strikers he has.

[Colos Short and Curlies]

I'd go along with that Parky. It's almost like he's trying TOO hard to come up with something special special for each game that will counter the opposition. I think he realises that he's basically on trial and he has to prove his worth as a tactician and has, as you mention, micro-managed things so much that the focus has shifted to coping with the opposition rather than attacking them.

 

I just hope he realises that in trying to be too cute, he's actually hindering his chances of winning the game each week.

 

 

 

 

 

Use fresh local produce don't over do the sauces let the the simple clean ingredients speak for themselves. 

 

You Gordon Ramsey or what eh?!

[Parky]

I'd go along with that Parky. It's almost like he's trying TOO hard to come up with something special special for each game that will counter the opposition. I think he realises that he's basically on trial and he has to prove his worth as a tactician and has, as you mention, micro-managed things so much that the focus has shifted to coping with the opposition rather than attacking them.

 

I just hope he realises that in trying to be too cute, he's actually hindering his chances of winning the game each week.

 

 

 

 

 

Use fresh local produce don't over do the sauces let the the simple clean ingredients speak for themselves. 

 

You Gordon Ramsey or what eh?!

 

Honoured to be even referred in the same post to the great man.

[Guest fraser]

In the second-half of the Bolton match at SJP last season they effectively dismantled us by using Anelka and Diouf as wide men. It was clearly a 4-3-3 but with width. I think this is the problem for us as, N'Zogbia apart, we don't have that pace out wide. Milner is excellent but not rapid. My theory is that Allardyce could not do it all in the summer, especially with new owners examining the debt and probably not prepared to back him for financial rather than any other reasons. He chose to try to sort out the defence and given time may yet have done so, although defensively the matches against Reading and Portsmouth were a disaster.

 

I also think that some of our people just aren't playing well or are not quite fit. Ideally I wouldn't have bought Smith but he is a better passer of the ball than he's shown for us. Emre isn't there fitness wise and Barton, similarly. The lack of form, whether because of the newness of the players or just coincidence has served to magnify our difficulties.

 

This is a transitional season, I wouldn't subscribe to the theory that it's little more than practice for next season, but I need to see improvement over a period. We're bottom half now and that's about as low as we should go and I expect a top-half finish. Any less than that and I would start to question whether Sam is the man for the job.

 

I also expect him to recruit pace sooner rather than later.

[Colos Short and Curlies]

In the second-half of the Bolton match at SJP last season they effectively dismantled us by using Anelka and Diouf as wide men. It was clearly a 4-3-3 but with width. I think this is the problem for us as, N'Zogbia apart, we don't have that pace out wide. Milner is excellent but not rapid. My theory is that Allardyce could not do it all in the summer, especially with new owners examining the debt and probably not prepared to back him for financial rather than any other reasons. He chose to try to sort out the defence and given time may yet have done so, although defensively the matches against Reading and Portsmouth were a disaster.

 

I also think that some of our people just aren't playing well or are not quite fit. Ideally I wouldn't have bought Smith but he is a better passer of the ball than he's shown for us. Emre isn't there fitness wise and Barton, similarly. The lack of form, whether because of the newness of the players or just coincidence has served to magnify our difficulties.

 

This is a transitional season, I wouldn't subscribe to the theory that it's little more than practice for next season, but I need to see improvement over a period. We're bottom half now and that's about as low as we should go and I expect a top-half finish. Any less than that and I would start to question whether Sam is the man for the job.

 

I also expect him to recruit pace sooner rather than later.

 

Playing Martins AND N'Zogbia on the wings in a 4-3-3 would immediately give us frightening pace for counter attacks.

 

And although they aint lightening, both Barton and Emre can get up to support the front man for knock backs with adequate pace

[Guest fraser]

In the second-half of the Bolton match at SJP last season they effectively dismantled us by using Anelka and Diouf as wide men. It was clearly a 4-3-3 but with width. I think this is the problem for us as, N'Zogbia apart, we don't have that pace out wide. Milner is excellent but not rapid. My theory is that Allardyce could not do it all in the summer, especially with new owners examining the debt and probably not prepared to back him for financial rather than any other reasons. He chose to try to sort out the defence and given time may yet have done so, although defensively the matches against Reading and Portsmouth were a disaster.

 

I also think that some of our people just aren't playing well or are not quite fit. Ideally I wouldn't have bought Smith but he is a better passer of the ball than he's shown for us. Emre isn't there fitness wise and Barton, similarly. The lack of form, whether because of the newness of the players or just coincidence has served to magnify our difficulties.

 

This is a transitional season, I wouldn't subscribe to the theory that it's little more than practice for next season, but I need to see improvement over a period. We're bottom half now and that's about as low as we should go and I expect a top-half finish. Any less than that and I would start to question whether Sam is the man for the job.

 

I also expect him to recruit pace sooner rather than later.

 

Playing Martins AND N'Zogbia on the wings in a 4-3-3 would immediately give us frightening pace for counter attacks.

 

And although they aint lightening, both Barton and Emre can get up to support the front man for knock backs with adequate pace

 

With Viduka central? It would work for me. And to clarify I thought Bolton were one of the best teams at SJP last season on their second-half performance AFTER Sam has adjusted things!

[Cronky]

For 4-3-3, you need strikers who can go wide, like Diouf. None of our strikers can really do that. However, we do have midfield players who can play up front-ish ie Duff, Milner - possibly Zoggy and Emre as well. Of those, I'm only really confident about Duff. It's a shame we lost Dyer, because I think that system would have suited him well.

[Colos Short and Curlies]

 

With Viduka central? It would work for me. And to clarify I thought Bolton were one of the best teams at SJP last season on their second-half performance AFTER Sam has adjusted things!

 

Dukes or Smith really, would have the Fat Aussie as first choice but it would appear that he wont be playing more than 2 games in a row

[Skirge]

I think Martins can play wide, not his best position but he can play there, he did put in a  good cross for Owen's goal vs Wigan, also has good apce and can go past players.

 

I would not use Zoggy as a LB though, I reckon he is not to clever there and is also wasted, use him as a wing back if you play 3 CB's then fine otherwise LW only.

[greydos]

The first post is waaaaaaaaaaaay too long!!

 

I read it thoroughly and my response in summary is that most of the points stated in it apply to any formation, particularly 442. For instance, the "he's training zoggy at left back so he can defend as a wide forward" argument applies equally to wingers in a 442. The wide players in any formation have to track back, that's the nature of football.

 

Also, because mourinho plays it doesn't make it the best formation, as in history you'll find more things have been won with 442 than any other formation.

 

"Transitional Play" is another baffling concept as the 1994 and 1999 Man U teams were the best at counter-attacking when they had to, quality centre midfield passing spraying the ball to Giggs, Kanchelskis et al an rapidly turning defence to attack. Same with us under SBR, the pace of dyer, robert and bellamy allied to solano's craft often seen us tear up the other end of the field and score goals. Being able to counter-attack a team does not depend on systems, but personnel. Pace and ability to trap the ball at high speed and execute final ball passing is the key to effective counter-attacking  in my eyes.