Would you trust Allardyce with Ashley's money?

[ohmelads]

Enrique and Faye look like good signings, even if they haven't set the world alight. Beye has looked rusty at times but I think he'll get better with games. Start those three with Taylor/Cacapa every week and give that four a chance to gel, then we might see an organised defence.

 

The jury is out on the rest of the signings though.

[madras]

I think the worry for me isn't so much whether I'd trust him to spend the money (I still think the likes of Roze, Enrique etc) will turn out to be decent long term buys.

 

However, the worry for me is more about how he's turning out the current first team.

 

They seem to have no gameplan, set formation, direction or will to put their bollocks on the line.

 

SIX of the eleven today we're Allardyce buys.

 

The worry for me, and the minimum I thought we'd get when we appointed Sam, is the lack of organisation and commitment.

 

At Bolton, he used what he had really well. They were strong, committed, organised and never knew when they were beaten. We don't look like any of that.

 

So, in my opinion, he'll probably not let us down in the market - the question for me is can he use what he has effectively? and can he get us results?

 

Those are the key questions.

 

 

Why'd you think that is?

 

Some thing's that might be relevant:

 

He had a long time at Bolton to instil those values within the fabric of the club.

 

We've not had any of that for a very long time.

 

Maybe it just takes longer than we think?

aswell as planning for the future you have to remember the present. and continually sending out unbalanced teams is doing no good in the present.

 

the better the present ,the better his plans for the future can be, what is sending out teams  to get 0-0 draws at derby-reading-sunderland and, it now appears home games against anyone half decent doing for the present or future of the club.

 

I'm not trying to defend any of that though. I'm just wondering why it is that Sam doesn't seem to be behaving like himself.

plenty of managers have been "1 clubbers" who just couldn't re-create what they could do at another,usually bigger club.

[Mick]

 

It's not plying with words to point out that the amount of time and leeway that various managers have received is something based upon something amounting to faith, rather than fact.

 

I never said that I knew Sam was going to improve things, I said I believed he would, I said I knew it would take time for any changes to take effect.

 

There are more places than just Bolton for bringing people in from, I'd be disappointed if that was the only place we were looking for staff. There are plenty of people that could do those jobs, I'd have thought that it might be one area in which Sam might really feel the benefit of being at a "bigger" club than Bolton too. This isn't a criticism of what you said by the way, just a response to it, I just wonder why that whole area appears to have ground to a halt.

 

Allardyce chose to look at people he worked with, probaby because of the reduced risk.  I don't know where we are in that process but it's up to the manager to go for alternatives if plan A fails, I doubt that he's been told that it's ex-Bolton or nobody.

[Howaythelads]

The club and job is simply too big for him.

 

The answer to the question is definitely no.

[indi]

I think the worry for me isn't so much whether I'd trust him to spend the money (I still think the likes of Roze, Enrique etc) will turn out to be decent long term buys.

 

However, the worry for me is more about how he's turning out the current first team.

 

They seem to have no gameplan, set formation, direction or will to put their bollocks on the line.

 

SIX of the eleven today we're Allardyce buys.

 

The worry for me, and the minimum I thought we'd get when we appointed Sam, is the lack of organisation and commitment.

 

At Bolton, he used what he had really well. They were strong, committed, organised and never knew when they were beaten. We don't look like any of that.

 

So, in my opinion, he'll probably not let us down in the market - the question for me is can he use what he has effectively? and can he get us results?

 

Those are the key questions.

 

 

Why'd you think that is?

 

Some thing's that might be relevant:

 

He had a long time at Bolton to instil those values within the fabric of the club.

 

We've not had any of that for a very long time.

 

Maybe it just takes longer than we think?

 

I'm not sure to be honest but in Barton, Smith etc he's bought grafters and even they don't look like they fancy the fight.

 

How long did he have at Bolton before they looked like comfortably finishing in the top half?

 

Maybe it is just time, but he's not a little old Bolton now so he won't have the luxury of infinite patience from either the paying public or the owner.

 

He needs to be up for this challenge - it's gonna be the biggest of his career.

 

I'm not sure how long he took at Bolton they were in the second tear at the time he took over after all, but I'm willing to bet that it was longer than he's had here so far.

 

Barton: I think given his injury it's too early to tell anything about him at present.

 

Smith: I think was a mistake, he quite obviously views this as a step down from ManU - but then it is, to be fair - and I think that much like Butt, it'll take him a while to get over that and start playing properly for us. That doesn't resolve the fact that nobody seems to know what position he should play and that he never really looks good enough in any of them, though. That's the reason I wouldn't have bought him myself. I also think that there's an issue with the owner nailing his colours to the mast quite so obviously and all.

 

I agree that this is definitely the biggest challenge of Sam's career and I understand what you say about the fans not having unlimited patience, but as I've said the board should be trying to make Sam believe they have confidence in him, even if they don't, otherwise he's never going to be confident enough to do what he thinks is right and what's the point in having a manager that isn't doing what he thinks is right!?!

[indi]

 

It's not plying with words to point out that the amount of time and leeway that various managers have received is something based upon something amounting to faith, rather than fact.

 

I never said that I knew Sam was going to improve things, I said I believed he would, I said I knew it would take time for any changes to take effect.

 

There are more places than just Bolton for bringing people in from, I'd be disappointed if that was the only place we were looking for staff. There are plenty of people that could do those jobs, I'd have thought that it might be one area in which Sam might really feel the benefit of being at a "bigger" club than Bolton too. This isn't a criticism of what you said by the way, just a response to it, I just wonder why that whole area appears to have ground to a halt.

 

Allardyce chose to look at people he worked with, probaby because of the reduced risk.  I don't know where we are in that process but it's up to the manager to go for alternatives if plan A fails, I doubt that he's been told that it's ex-Bolton or nobody.

 

No, but he might have been told it's nobody.

[Mick]

The club and job is simply too big for him.

 

The answer to the question is definitely no.

 

Agreed and as usual we're the ones who pay for it and I don't mean financially.

[indi]

I think the worry for me isn't so much whether I'd trust him to spend the money (I still think the likes of Roze, Enrique etc) will turn out to be decent long term buys.

 

However, the worry for me is more about how he's turning out the current first team.

 

They seem to have no gameplan, set formation, direction or will to put their bollocks on the line.

 

SIX of the eleven today we're Allardyce buys.

 

The worry for me, and the minimum I thought we'd get when we appointed Sam, is the lack of organisation and commitment.

 

At Bolton, he used what he had really well. They were strong, committed, organised and never knew when they were beaten. We don't look like any of that.

 

So, in my opinion, he'll probably not let us down in the market - the question for me is can he use what he has effectively? and can he get us results?

 

Those are the key questions.

 

 

Why'd you think that is?

 

Some thing's that might be relevant:

 

He had a long time at Bolton to instil those values within the fabric of the club.

 

We've not had any of that for a very long time.

 

Maybe it just takes longer than we think?

aswell as planning for the future you have to remember the present. and continually sending out unbalanced teams is doing no good in the present.

 

the better the present ,the better his plans for the future can be, what is sending out teams  to get 0-0 draws at derby-reading-sunderland and, it now appears home games against anyone half decent doing for the present or future of the club.

 

I'm not trying to defend any of that though. I'm just wondering why it is that Sam doesn't seem to be behaving like himself.

plenty of managers have been "1 clubbers" who just couldn't re-create what they could do at another,usually bigger club.

 

Yeah, they have.

 

There are also a growing number of managers who were previously considered to be good that came here and failed. Why do you think that is?

[Mick]

 

No, but he might have been told it's nobody.

 

Mort has been saying recently that he's still looking for people at different levels, I think he specifically mentioned management of different areas within the club.

[Minhosa]

I think the worry for me isn't so much whether I'd trust him to spend the money (I still think the likes of Roze, Enrique etc) will turn out to be decent long term buys.

 

However, the worry for me is more about how he's turning out the current first team.

 

They seem to have no gameplan, set formation, direction or will to put their bollocks on the line.

 

SIX of the eleven today we're Allardyce buys.

 

The worry for me, and the minimum I thought we'd get when we appointed Sam, is the lack of organisation and commitment.

 

At Bolton, he used what he had really well. They were strong, committed, organised and never knew when they were beaten. We don't look like any of that.

 

So, in my opinion, he'll probably not let us down in the market - the question for me is can he use what he has effectively? and can he get us results?

 

Those are the key questions.

 

 

Why'd you think that is?

 

Some thing's that might be relevant:

 

He had a long time at Bolton to instil those values within the fabric of the club.

 

We've not had any of that for a very long time.

 

Maybe it just takes longer than we think?

 

I'm not sure to be honest but in Barton, Smith etc he's bought grafters and even they don't look like they fancy the fight.

 

How long did he have at Bolton before they looked like comfortably finishing in the top half?

 

Maybe it is just time, but he's not a little old Bolton now so he won't have the luxury of infinite patience from either the paying public or the owner.

 

He needs to be up for this challenge - it's gonna be the biggest of his career.

 

I'm not sure how long he took at Bolton they were in the second tear at the time he took over after all, but I'm willing to bet that it was longer than he's had here so far.

 

Barton: I think given his injury it's too early to tell anything about him at present.

 

Smith: I think was a mistake, he quite obviously views this as a step down from ManU - but then it is, to be fair - and I think that much like Butt, it'll take him a while to get over that and start playing properly for us. That doesn't resolve the fact that nobody seems to know what position he should play and that he never really looks good enough in any of them, though. That's the reason I wouldn't have bought him myself. I also think that there's an issue with the owner nailing his colours to the mast quite so obviously and all.

 

I agree that this is definitely the biggest challenge of Sam's career and I understand what you say about the fans not having unlimited patience, but as I've said the board should be trying to make Sam believe they have confidence in him, even if they don't, otherwise he's never going to be confident enough to do what he thinks is right and what's the point in having a manager that isn't doing what he thinks is right!?!

 

Indi - I'm not disagreeing with you by any means.

 

I've said elsewhere I'm firmly in the give him time/we need continuity camp.

 

It's just there's very little in the way of positives in terms of how the team is set up and the manner in which they're playing.

 

I'm not doubting Barton as a buy or character by the way. I think he'll do a job it's just another example of a typical 'get stuck in, fire up the crowd, never say die' kind of buy who hasn't portrayed that in any of his (albeit limited) minutes on the pitch.

 

Same for Butt, Smith, Geremi etc who I would think would try to lift the crowd and colleagues by grabbing the game by the scruff of the neck even if that means rattling the opponents by bullying tactics or whatever.

[indi]

 

No, but he might have been told it's nobody.

 

Mort has been saying recently that he's still looking for people at different levels, I think he specifically mentioned management of different areas within the club.

 

Fair enough then, but he needs to get on with it as much as Sam does.

[indi]

 

 

Indi - I'm not disagreeing with you by any means.

 

I've said elsewhere I'm firmly in the give him time/we need continuity camp.

 

It's just there's very little in the way of positives in terms of how the team is set up and the manner in which they're playing.

 

I'm not doubting Barton as a buy or character by the way. I think he'll do a job it's just another example of a typical 'get stuck in, fire up the crowd, never say die' kind of buy who hasn't portrayed that in any of his (albeit limited) minutes on the pitch.

 

Same for Butt, Smith, Geremi etc who I would think would try to lift the crowd and colleagues by grabbing the game by the scruff of the neck even if that means rattling the opponents by bullying tactics or whatever.

 

I didn't think you were, I was just continuing the conversation.

 

I too am surprised to not see much progress so far, but the thing that surprises me the most is the way Sam is behaving, which isn't how I'd have expected. He's chopping and changing and making strange substitutions and playing different formations, all of which are pretty much the last thing I'd have expected from him, and I want to know why this is.

[Minhosa]

 

 

Indi - I'm not disagreeing with you by any means.

 

I've said elsewhere I'm firmly in the give him time/we need continuity camp.

 

It's just there's very little in the way of positives in terms of how the team is set up and the manner in which they're playing.

 

I'm not doubting Barton as a buy or character by the way. I think he'll do a job it's just another example of a typical 'get stuck in, fire up the crowd, never say die' kind of buy who hasn't portrayed that in any of his (albeit limited) minutes on the pitch.

 

Same for Butt, Smith, Geremi etc who I would think would try to lift the crowd and colleagues by grabbing the game by the scruff of the neck even if that means rattling the opponents by bullying tactics or whatever.

 

I didn't think you were, I was just continuing the conversation.

 

I too am surprised to not see much progress so far, but the thing that surprises me the most is the way Sam is behaving, which isn't how I'd have expected. He's chopping and changing and making strange substitutions and playing different formations, all of which are pretty much the last thing I'd have expected from him, and I want to know why this is.

 

Agree. Maybe its the politics of a big club.

 

How many other times has he had to 'manage' such big names/personalities as Owen/Viduka?

 

How many other times has he had a really big budget?

 

Can he change is 'sales pitch' to potential new players from 'we're a little club but you can be part of something great etc etc'?

 

Can he attract the big names or even the players wanted by the top clubs?

 

All unanswered at the minute for me and he's got it all to do because those questions perhaps shouldn't be answered by now - BUT what should be is sending his teams out organised, committed and in a system thats effective, if not pretty.

[Parky]

If you want to attract big name players for whom there is competition you need a big name manager. Simple fact.

[Minhosa]

If you want to attract big name players for whom there is competition you need a big name manager. Simple fact.

 

How did Roeder attract Martins then?

[indi]

If you want to attract big name players for whom there is competition you need a big name manager. Simple fact.

 

Or a shit load of cash.

 

Is that (what you've written, not the above) a realistic option for us at the moment though and would getting rid of Sam after less than half a season in charge improve or worsen our chances?

[Parky]

If you want to attract big name players for whom there is competition you need a big name manager. Simple fact.

 

Or a shit load of cash.

 

Is that (what you've written, not the above) a realistic option for us at the moment though and would getting rid of Sam after less than half a season in charge improve or worsen our chances?

 

We shouldn't consider firing anyone till the summer ideally, but football is a funny old game eh?

[Parky]

If you want to attract big name players for whom there is competition you need a big name manager. Simple fact.

 

How did Roeder attract Martins then?

 

Cause no one else wanted him, he couldn't get a game at Inter, he wasn't/isn't worth the money, he's really 29 years old? Fuvk knows..

[Mick]

If you want to attract big name players for whom there is competition you need a big name manager. Simple fact.

 

How did Roeder attract Martins then?

 

See the bit in bold.

[Minhosa]

If you want to attract big name players for whom there is competition you need a big name manager. Simple fact.

 

How did Roeder attract Martins then?

 

See the bit in bold.

 

I think there would have been other takers for Martins to be honest.

 

Obviously in the minority.

 

Regardless, he was still a big name for a shit manager to attract.

[indi]

Here's my attempt at answering:

 

 

 

Agree. Maybe its the politics of a big club.

 

How many other times has he had to 'manage' such big names/personalities as Owen/Viduka?

 

I think he's managed a few big names pretty well in the past, names that you'd have thought were way too big for Bolton at the time, but who were happy to play there under Sam.

 

How many other times has he had a really big budget?

 

Almost certainly never, that doesn't necessarily mean he won't be able to handle it if he was given one and the figures show that he actually hasn't had one here yet. We'll just have to wait and see what happens, I guess.

 

Can he change is 'sales pitch' to potential new players from 'we're a little club but you can be part of something great etc etc'?

 

To be honest I think we might be an equally hard, if not harder, sell than Bolton were, at the moment. Won nothing for ages, massive pressure from the fans, poor squad, new owners, little time to settle in before getting judged, etc, etc, etc.

 

Can he attract the big names or even the players wanted by the top clubs?

 

Can the club attract big names or players wanted by the big clubs!?! Would you come here? Are we in a position to attract the best players in the world regardless of who's manager? Certainly not for football reasons. Perhaps we need to reassess where exactly we are in the grand scale of things, are we actually competing against the big clubs? I don't think we are, we haven't been for a long time now. At the moment we're competing against the likes of City, Spurs, Villa, etc, and if you look at the type of players the successful amongst that set of clubs are buying they aren't world stars they're good quality, but lesser well-known players from abroad. The best players that those clubs can hope to attract for primarily footballing reasons. If you aim above that then the only thing that's going to secure players is money and you end up with overpaid mercenaries who don't give a shit about playing for the club, mentioning no names. Sam's signings so-far seem to fit within the realistic limits of whom we can attract, the only one I'd question on the level is Smith for the reasons I've already stated, which mean that he's a big-name, but not really a big star.

 

Basically what it boils down to is that we need to be able to walk before we can run. If we try to go from where we are to challenging for the title immediately we'll fall flat on our faces, again.

 

All unanswered at the minute for me and he's got it all to do because those questions perhaps shouldn't be answered by now - BUT what should be is sending his teams out organised, committed and in a system thats effective, if not pretty.

 

I agree, and again, I wonder why he isn't.

[Minhosa]

Indi,

 

I'll not quote your reply otherwise this post will end up massive.

 

With regard to the 'managing big names' thing, I'm not in total agreement because even though he's had the Djorkaeff's, Anelka's, Okocka's and Diouf's of the world to manage they've all either been virtually finished or really damaged goods.

 

Big names - yes, big names needing to prove something - yes, big names like golden boy Owen - no.

 

Agree with regard to Newcastle being hard sell at the minute. Lets face it, the main attraction over the last five years has been ££££££££.

 

I agree we need to walk before we can run but we need to be buying players that are better than those being signed by Spurs and Man City otherwise we're accepting sixth place downover.

[Parky]

Here's my attempt at answering:

 

 

 

Agree. Maybe its the politics of a big club.

 

How many other times has he had to 'manage' such big names/personalities as Owen/Viduka?

 

I think he's managed a few big names pretty well in the past, names that you'd have thought were way too big for Bolton at the time, but who were happy to play there under Sam.

 

How many other times has he had a really big budget?

 

Almost certainly never, that doesn't necessarily mean he won't be able to handle it if he was given one and the figures show that he actually hasn't had one here yet. We'll just have to wait and see what happens, I guess.

 

Can he change is 'sales pitch' to potential new players from 'we're a little club but you can be part of something great etc etc'?

 

To be honest I think we might be an equally hard, if not harder, sell than Bolton were, at the moment. Won nothing for ages, massive pressure from the fans, poor squad, new owners, little time to settle in before getting judged, etc, etc, etc.

 

Can he attract the big names or even the players wanted by the top clubs?

 

Can the club attract big names or players wanted by the big clubs!?! Would you come here? Are we in a position to attract the best players in the world regardless of who's manager? Certainly not for football reasons. Perhaps we need to reassess where exactly we are in the grand scale of things, are we actually competing against the big clubs? I don't think we are, we haven't been for a long time now. At the moment we're competing against the likes of City, Spurs, Villa, etc, and if you look at the type of players the successful amongst that set of clubs are buying they aren't world stars they're good quality, but lesser well-known players from abroad. The best players that those clubs can hope to attract for primarily footballing reasons. If you aim above that then the only thing that's going to secure players is money and you end up with overpaid mercenaries who don't give a shit about playing for the club, mentioning no names. Sam's signings so-far seem to fit within the realistic limits of whom we can attract, the only one I'd question on the level is Smith for the reasons I've already stated, which mean that he's a big-name, but not really a big star.

 

Basically what it boils down to is that we need to be able to walk before we can run. If we try to go from where we are to challenging for the title immediately we'll fall flat on our faces, again.

 

All unanswered at the minute for me and he's got it all to do because those questions perhaps shouldn't be answered by now - BUT what should be is sending his teams out organised, committed and in a system thats effective, if not pretty.

 

I agree, and again, I wonder why he isn't.

 

...also for whatever reason SA bought too many def players in the summer.

[tmonkey]

Given

Beye

Cacapa

Faye

Jose Enrique

Milner

Geremi

Butt

N'Zogbia

Martins

Smith

 

That was the team that gave the best performance this season based on one game against a decent side (Everton) - and it might have something to do with both wingers being on either wing at the same time, along with a strike partnership that actually involves a partnership as opposed to two incompatible forwards being lumped together.

 

We do have a decent team within the current squad, but it wont get a chance because Big Sam feels the need to be overly clever - rotating players, changing formations, changing positions, etc.

[Mick]

Given

Beye

Cacapa

Faye

Jose Enrique

Milner

Geremi

Butt

N'Zogbia

Martins

Smith

 

That was the team that gave the best performance this season based on one game against a decent side (Everton) - and it might have something to do with both wingers being on either wing at the same time, along with a strike partnership that actually involves a partnership as opposed to two incompatible forwards being lumped together.

 

We do have a decent team within the current squad, but it wont get a chance because Big Sam feels the need to be overly clever - rotating players, changing formations, changing positions, etc.

 

8 of those players started today, the 9th was on the bench.