The Times today speculated that the players have turned on Allardyce

[Keefaz]

I don't how else to say it: people need to either back the team or shut the fuck up, for a few months at least.

[ChezGiven]

Bobby Robson - 11th and 11th first 2 seasons. We gave him time and it came right.

 

Last season we finished 13th.

 

We are currently 11th. I can understand frustration with the performances, but to just give up completely?

 

I can't understand that, and we will look like the mongs of the Premier League if we sack another manager so soon.

 

Excellent point about SBR.

 

SBR was making progress, not trying to get ball players to lump it long to small strikers like Sam has done at times this season.

 

 

 

No in his last season all he did was get us to lump it to Shearer.

[TRon]

Bobby Robson - 11th and 11th first 2 seasons. We gave him time and it came right.

 

Last season we finished 13th.

 

We are currently 11th. I can understand frustration with the performances, but to just give up completely?

 

I can't understand that, and we will look like the mongs of the Premier League if we sack another manager so soon.

 

Excellent point about SBR.

 

SBR was making progress, not trying to get ball players to lump it long to small strikers like Sam has done at times this season.

 

 

 

No in his last season all he did was get us to lump it to Shearer.

 

the point being made was about SBR's first two seasons though.

[ChezGiven]

Bobby Robson - 11th and 11th first 2 seasons. We gave him time and it came right.

 

Last season we finished 13th.

 

We are currently 11th. I can understand frustration with the performances, but to just give up completely?

 

I can't understand that, and we will look like the mongs of the Premier League if we sack another manager so soon.

 

Excellent point about SBR.

 

SBR was making progress, not trying to get ball players to lump it long to small strikers like Sam has done at times this season.

 

 

 

No in his last season all he did was get us to lump it to Shearer.

 

the point being made was about SBR's first two seasons though.

 

True. I just thought i'd hoy that in there anyway.

[johnnypd]

when people are saying give allardyce time, are they thinking -

 

a) his brand of football - long balls, battlers with limited talent in midfield, no real width or creativity, chopping and changing, fining people for taking long shots, playing for draws even against the worst teams  - will take time to work, and will one day be effective.

 

or

 

b) hoping he suddenly changes his brand of football?

 

Because he's not going to do B, all the people complaining about Big Sam learning from his errors and amending the mistakes he's been making recently, it simply is not going to happen. IMO Allardyce is not adaptable, it is his way or nothing, he won't change to suit the environment or the players at his disposal, and would rather misuse players to fit systems and tactics they don't suit. the only way he'll be effective is if we give him time to completely change the club and completely overhaul the playing staff, so that the club suits him and not the other way round. but he'll only get time if he can sort us out short-term. first of all he needs to earn the time and clout within the club to make the long-term changes. i'm not convinced we should go in for this wholesale alteration to suit one man who has never really achieved anything in the game. even if in a few years he has managed to implement all the changes he would've liked, all those things we moan about will still be evident, only the allardyce style of football will be more effective then because the whole club - players and backroom staff - will be geared towards it whereas now it is not.

[Parky]

when people are saying give allardyce time, are they thinking -

 

a) his brand of football - long balls, battlers with limited talent in midfield, no real width or creativity, chopping and changing, fining people for taking long shots, playing for draws even against the worst teams  - will take time to work, and will one day be effective.

 

or

 

b) hoping he suddenly changes his brand of football?

 

Because he's not going to do B, all the people complaining about Big Sam learning from his errors and amending the mistakes he's been making recently, it simply is not going to happen. IMO Allardyce is not adaptable, it is his way or nothing, he won't change to suit the environment or the players at his disposal, and would rather misuse players to fit systems and tactics they don't suit. the only way he'll be effective is if we give him time to completely change the club and completely overhaul the playing staff, so that the club suits him and not the other way round. but he'll only get time if he can sort us out short-term. first of all he needs to earn the time and clout within the club to make the long-term changes. i'm not convinced we should go in for this wholesale alteration to suit one man who has never really achieved anything in the game. even if in a few years he has managed to implement all the changes he would've liked, all those things we moan about will still be evident, only the allardyce style of football will be more effective then because the whole club - players and backroom staff - will be geared towards it whereas now it is not.

 

I'd expect professional players to adapt and understand that SA is in charge. Put them all on double training everytime an article from Owen's mates appears in The Times. 

[Keefaz]

when people are saying give allardyce time, are they thinking -

 

a) his brand of football - long balls, battlers with limited talent in midfield, no real width or creativity, chopping and changing, fining people for taking long shots, playing for draws even against the worst teams  - will take time to work, and will one day be effective.

 

or

 

b) hoping he suddenly changes his brand of football?

 

Because he's not going to do B, all the people complaining about Big Sam learning from his errors and amending the mistakes he's been making recently, it simply is not going to happen. IMO Allardyce is not adaptable, it is his way or nothing, he won't change to suit the environment or the players at his disposal, and would rather misuse players to fit systems and tactics they don't suit. the only way he'll be effective is if we give him time to completely change the club and completely overhaul the playing staff, so that the club suits him and not the other way round. but he'll only get time if he can sort us out short-term. first of all he needs to earn the time and clout within the club to make the long-term changes. i'm not convinced we should go in for this wholesale alteration to suit one man who has never really achieved anything in the game. even if in a few years he has managed to implement all the changes he would've liked, all those things we moan about will still be evident, only the allardyce style of football will be more effective then because the whole club - players and backroom staff - will be geared towards it whereas now it is not.

 

You seem to know a lot about what Allardyce can and can't do, like. Where's your evidence?

[Mowen]

Can I just point out that the Times confirmed absolutely fuck all.

[ChezGiven]

Can I just point out that the Times confirmed absolutely fuck all.

 

[Guest alex]

The bit in the Guardian is even worse. It's like a rumour you'd hear off a taxi driver.

[Guest Elan]

when people are saying give allardyce time, are they thinking -

 

a) his brand of football - long balls, battlers with limited talent in midfield, no real width or creativity, chopping and changing, fining people for taking long shots, playing for draws even against the worst teams  - will take time to work, and will one day be effective.

 

or

 

b) hoping he suddenly changes his brand of football?

 

Because he's not going to do B, all the people complaining about Big Sam learning from his errors and amending the mistakes he's been making recently, it simply is not going to happen. IMO Allardyce is not adaptable, it is his way or nothing, he won't change to suit the environment or the players at his disposal, and would rather misuse players to fit systems and tactics they don't suit. the only way he'll be effective is if we give him time to completely change the club and completely overhaul the playing staff, so that the club suits him and not the other way round. but he'll only get time if he can sort us out short-term. first of all he needs to earn the time and clout within the club to make the long-term changes. i'm not convinced we should go in for this wholesale alteration to suit one man who has never really achieved anything in the game. even if in a few years he has managed to implement all the changes he would've liked, all those things we moan about will still be evident, only the allardyce style of football will be more effective then because the whole club - players and backroom staff - will be geared towards it whereas now it is not.

 

:clap:

[TRon]

when people are saying give allardyce time, are they thinking -

 

a) his brand of football - long balls, battlers with limited talent in midfield, no real width or creativity, chopping and changing, fining people for taking long shots, playing for draws even against the worst teams  - will take time to work, and will one day be effective.

 

or

 

b) hoping he suddenly changes his brand of football?

 

Because he's not going to do B, all the people complaining about Big Sam learning from his errors and amending the mistakes he's been making recently, it simply is not going to happen. IMO Allardyce is not adaptable, it is his way or nothing, he won't change to suit the environment or the players at his disposal, and would rather misuse players to fit systems and tactics they don't suit. the only way he'll be effective is if we give him time to completely change the club and completely overhaul the playing staff, so that the club suits him and not the other way round. but he'll only get time if he can sort us out short-term. first of all he needs to earn the time and clout within the club to make the long-term changes. i'm not convinced we should go in for this wholesale alteration to suit one man who has never really achieved anything in the game. even if in a few years he has managed to implement all the changes he would've liked, all those things we moan about will still be evident, only the allardyce style of football will be more effective then because the whole club - players and backroom staff - will be geared towards it whereas now it is not.

 

:clap:

 

Ditto. Good post and spot on IMO.

 

[Guest alex]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not calling for Allardyce's head. However, I personally believe that apart from the games against Bolton, West Ham, Tottenham and Everton, we have been WORSE than last season. Last season we at least had some attacking flair and played with players in their right positions. Everyone who believes we are better off right now are just seeing what they want to see.

 

As I've said. If Allardyce hasn't upped his game considerably (tactics, team selections, use of subs, results etc.) by the end of December:

 

a) I will have lost all of my remaining trust and belief in him (which is running very low as it is)

b) it will take a lot to win me back to his side

c) i will seriously question anyone who still has faith in him and thinks he deserves time.

 

As many people have said.... you can only give the right man time. If he doesn't show that he his the right man between now and the start of 2008 we should be looking elsewhere, because it's been shit so far, and anyone saying otherwise is obviously in denial.

 

I hope he does turn it around however.

So, 13 games in (iirc) we have to discount 4 good performances because it doesn't fit your argument? Seems a bit unfair to me. Also, in which games have we been worse than the defeat to Birmingham last year in the cup?

I agree with the bit after the first paragraph btw.

[Keefaz]

when people are saying give allardyce time, are they thinking -

 

a) his brand of football - long balls, battlers with limited talent in midfield, no real width or creativity, chopping and changing, fining people for taking long shots, playing for draws even against the worst teams  - will take time to work, and will one day be effective.

 

or

 

b) hoping he suddenly changes his brand of football?

 

Because he's not going to do B, all the people complaining about Big Sam learning from his errors and amending the mistakes he's been making recently, it simply is not going to happen. IMO Allardyce is not adaptable, it is his way or nothing, he won't change to suit the environment or the players at his disposal, and would rather misuse players to fit systems and tactics they don't suit. the only way he'll be effective is if we give him time to completely change the club and completely overhaul the playing staff, so that the club suits him and not the other way round. but he'll only get time if he can sort us out short-term. first of all he needs to earn the time and clout within the club to make the long-term changes. i'm not convinced we should go in for this wholesale alteration to suit one man who has never really achieved anything in the game. even if in a few years he has managed to implement all the changes he would've liked, all those things we moan about will still be evident, only the allardyce style of football will be more effective then because the whole club - players and backroom staff - will be geared towards it whereas now it is not.

 

:clap:

 

Why would you applaud a load of baseless assumptions?

[Guest Sniffer]

Even though  Liverpool didn't score at least six, as they should have done, I think you can count the performance up there with the B'ham game. If not, you are splitting hairs as both games were diabolical. Does the degree really matter?

[ChezGiven]

Even though  Liverpool didn't score at least six, as they should have done, I think you can count the performance up there with the B'ham game. If not, you are splitting hairs as both games were diabolical. Does the degree really matter?

 

Opposition was worlds apart though.

[Guest alex]

Even though  Liverpool didn't score at least six, as they should have done, I think you can count the performance up there with the B'ham game. If not, you are splitting hairs as both games were diabolical. Does the degree really matter?

Well the opposition on Saturday was far superior the Birmingham side that murdered us. And it was to demonstrate things were just as bad (or worse) last year when people were suggesting last season wasn't as bad.

[Guest alex]

Even though  Liverpool didn't score at least six, as they should have done, I think you can count the performance up there with the B'ham game. If not, you are splitting hairs as both games were diabolical. Does the degree really matter?

 

Opposition was worlds apart though.

 

Yes, but Liverpool weren't great by any stretch of the imagination. We were just shit.

Weren't you arguing we were worse than last year though?

[Guest Sniffer]

We only had 10 men against B'ham.

[Mr. Snrub]

I don't how else to say it: people need to either back the team or shut the fuck up, for a few months at least.

 

So everyone should just pretend everything is going fine and not be allowed to voice concerns about shite we currently are?

 

Keep it up Big Sam, you're doing a terrific job!

[johnnypd]

when people are saying give allardyce time, are they thinking -

 

a) his brand of football - long balls, battlers with limited talent in midfield, no real width or creativity, chopping and changing, fining people for taking long shots, playing for draws even against the worst teams  - will take time to work, and will one day be effective.

 

or

 

b) hoping he suddenly changes his brand of football?

 

Because he's not going to do B, all the people complaining about Big Sam learning from his errors and amending the mistakes he's been making recently, it simply is not going to happen. IMO Allardyce is not adaptable, it is his way or nothing, he won't change to suit the environment or the players at his disposal, and would rather misuse players to fit systems and tactics they don't suit. the only way he'll be effective is if we give him time to completely change the club and completely overhaul the playing staff, so that the club suits him and not the other way round. but he'll only get time if he can sort us out short-term. first of all he needs to earn the time and clout within the club to make the long-term changes. i'm not convinced we should go in for this wholesale alteration to suit one man who has never really achieved anything in the game. even if in a few years he has managed to implement all the changes he would've liked, all those things we moan about will still be evident, only the allardyce style of football will be more effective then because the whole club - players and backroom staff - will be geared towards it whereas now it is not.

 

You seem to know a lot about what Allardyce can and can't do, like. Where's your evidence?

 

this season and bolton under big sam. everything we're complaining about now was present in his bolton side but that club was geared towards him and his football so it was moderately successful. they hoofed it up, they filled the side with hefty midfield battlers, resorted to head tennis, long throws as the mainstay of their attacking strategy, played it direct and through the middle, chopped and changed (sam only kept the same side 3 times in 53 games through 2006 or something like that), negative defensive tactics (despite this they still conceded more goals than roeder's newcastle which had far worse individuals in it) defending a deep line and launching it to their 2 or 3 attackers, people may mention diouf and anelka but he only signed anelka for the last season and even then he often played nolan, pederson, stelios and davies in forward or wide positions they were not used to. not sure if the fining for long-shots is hearsay or truth but it has been widely reported that he discourages it. that is not neccessarily a bad thing, wenger does the same, as well as limit aerial crosses as you are more likely to lose the ball, but it shouldn't just be applied indiscriminately, in some conditions it might make the players fearful of making mistakes and want to just get rid of the ball instead of chancing it.

 

now that he is in an alien environment without his established backroom setup, different fans, chairman who didn't pick him and is ambigious about backing him, players who aren't suited to his style of football and so on, he is struggling and hasn't adapted the style of football to suit the club/players. look at how he's used ameobi and viduka as targetmen and promoted the big-man/small-man partnership, even tho both are very unsuited to the role. everyone thought it was just an honest mistake but he's persisted with it, the only time he didn't was when smith, viduka and ameobi were all out against spurs, then kept martins-owen against reading (although he then subbed martins early in the 2nd half for the useless smith). i think sam would rather persist in playing people out of position in unfamiliar ways because he probably thinks in the long-term they'll get used to it and it'll pay dividends, i'm not so sure.

 

i'm not saying get rid of allardyce btw i'm just in the "unsure" camp at the moment and playing devil's advocate a bit. i think he'll do a decent job given time but only on his terms and until they're met we won't do much. i don't think he's suddenly going to magic out of the present tactics but that there's a method to the madness and that he'll persist with them until it either works or he's forced to change by disasterous results. at bolton they had a few runs of 5 or 6 successive defeats and he never really changed the style they played, but stuck through it. that seems to be his way.

[ChezGiven]

Even though  Liverpool didn't score at least six, as they should have done, I think you can count the performance up there with the B'ham game. If not, you are splitting hairs as both games were diabolical. Does the degree really matter?

 

Opposition was worlds apart though.

 

Yes, but Liverpool weren't great by any stretch of the imagination. We were just shit.

 

I thought Liverpool were good. Yes we were shit obviously.

[tmonkey]

Even though  Liverpool didn't score at least six, as they should have done, I think you can count the performance up there with the B'ham game. If not, you are splitting hairs as both games were diabolical. Does the degree really matter?

 

Opposition was worlds apart though.

 

Massive difference in the teams we had out though. Ramage, Huntington, Pattison, Sibierski were in that team as half the squad was out injured. And Taylor was sent off too.

 

I agree with Sniffer. I think the performance was worse against Liverpool for the players we had out there. We were torn to shreds practically every time they attacked, schoolboy defending would be an understatement. That wasnt the case against Birmingham, who put their chances away but essentially merely took advantage of poor squad depth, reserve players not good enough for top flight football, complacency under a shiite manager, and a sending off.

[Keefaz]

I don't how else to say it: people need to either back the team or shut the fuck up, for a few months at least.

 

So everyone should just pretend everything is going fine and not be allowed to voice concerns about shite we currently are?

 

Keep it up Big Sam, you're doing a terrific job!

 

Yeah, basically. What's booing and chanting going to do other than heap pressure on an already pressurised manager and group of players? If everyone tries to get behind him, we can at least say we gave him a fair crack at the whip.

[Guest alex]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not calling for Allardyce's head. However, I personally believe that apart from the games against Bolton, West Ham, Tottenham and Everton, we have been WORSE than last season. Last season we at least had some attacking flair and played with players in their right positions. Everyone who believes we are better off right now are just seeing what they want to see.

 

As I've said. If Allardyce hasn't upped his game considerably (tactics, team selections, use of subs, results etc.) by the end of December:

 

a) I will have lost all of my remaining trust and belief in him (which is running very low as it is)

b) it will take a lot to win me back to his side

c) i will seriously question anyone who still has faith in him and thinks he deserves time.

 

As many people have said.... you can only give the right man time. If he doesn't show that he his the right man between now and the start of 2008 we should be looking elsewhere, because it's been s*** so far, and anyone saying otherwise is obviously in denial.

 

I hope he does turn it around however.

So, 13 games in (iirc) we have to discount 4 good performances because it doesn't fit your argument? Seems a bit unfair to me. Also, in which games have we been worse than the defeat to Birmingham last year in the cup?

I agree with the bit after the first paragraph btw.

 

No, I'm not discounting those four games, but is four good games in 13 good enough?

 

Birmingham 5-1 = Yes it was horrific, but we had 11 first team players out that day. And Birmingham were flying high and full of confidence in the Championship.

 

I would say the loss to Liverpool was worse because we didn't even force a corner or a shot on target, and we had the majority of of our team available.

 

I would say the loss to Portsmouth was up their because we created so little with almost a full squad, and showed a complete lack of ability to change the game at all.

 

I would say the performance at Sunderland was worse than the Brum defeat. If a manager can't motivate a team enough to put on any kind of display against your fierce rivals you have to question his ability.

 

I would say the defeat at Derby was up their because Derby were so demoralised due to recent results, but they walked all over us.

We'd capitulated at home to absolute shite like Sheff Utd already at this stage last year. We also never scored at home after the Alkmaar game. Fair enough if you think we're as bad but I don't see us as being worse. I reckon we'll finish higher than last season too.