I can't see things changing much I'm afraid...

[Guest Knightrider]

Not this season or the next, not unless Big Sam can bring in some serious quality in key areas. He built a quality squad at Bolton (in relative terms, i.e. considering his budget and the size of Wannderers etc.) but he had 8 years to do so and didn't quite have the expectation levels to deal with that he does here so he could bring in unknowns and turn them into stars, while he also had the good fortune of being able to rescue quality players like Diouf and Anelka without any kind of competition and on the cheap or at knockdown prices. He can't do that here, turn players into stars and there are not many stars needing rescued at the moment. Rozehnal at Bolton would have been another Haim while Cacapa would have turned into another Campo for example - top players for them. Here they are average and in Cacapa's case very short-term.

 

He needs money and good money and he needs it now. People may say £18m (or whatever he spent in the summer) is a lot and it is, but not enough to turn Souness' and Roeder's Newcastle into a top 6 outfit in one season, especially factoring all the off-field requirements that were missing when he joined the club. That money simply strengthened a very small squad into an average squad, hardly strengthening the first-team. If we are to move onto another level though we need to add at least three high level players to the first-team thus making regulars like Smith, Milner et al into squad players which would strengthen us two-fold. The board need to release the money to do so and Big Sam himself needs to ignore any desires to strengthen the squad further with a multitude of signings that may well give us further strength in depth but wouldn't improve the first-team to the level it needs to improve.

 

I'm not advocating releasing £40m or something like that but spending £8-10m each on a few players over Jan, the summer window and the following one after that.

 

We badly need a top drawer centre-half, a playmaker, some genuine quality on the right flank and one top drawer centre-forward.

 

I'm not advocating big names either, as long as these players are quality and will fit in with the manager's methods that will do for me.

 

We need only look back at Sir Bobby's time here. Had he spent that £16m on 5 players instead of just two in Robert and Bellamy, I doubt we'd have progressed as quickly as we did under him. We could also look at Everton. For a number of years Moyes would spend his money on squad players but over the last year and a half any money he's had he's decided to invest in quality or players he percieves to be quality, big money on Johnson, Yakubu and a big money attempt to sign Fernandes.

 

Indeed Wenger himself prefers to spend any money he has on quality rather than quantity, adding to his team with good players every window. In fact all your top managers do that. Fergie wouldn't think twice spending all his budget on 2 top players or as was the case with Rooney, just the one.

 

I think Big Sam's summer dealings was him paying for the past mistakes of the previous board and their appointments who neglected to strengthen the squad, instead doing what I'm advocating now on players like Owen, Duff, Martins, £42m worth of talent. Well, as far as I'm concerned the squad is reasonably strong in terms of depth now, I mean our bench tomorrow could contain Harper, Taylor, Geremi, Owen and Enrique, a far cry from Roeder's usual bench which included academy kids, a Man Utd loan signing and Sibierski at times.

 

So now we need to do a Shepherd, spend big on a few players. Only this time the right players which I'm confident Big Sam will be able to sign unlike his predecessors.

 

In January a number of good players could become available, players like Crouch, Diouf, Anelka and maybe SWP. Those are the kind of players we need to be looking at and if we spent say £16m on Crouch and Diouf for example I think that would be a good investment because not only are they quality players but they would also be ideal for how Big Sam wants us to play.

 

Imagine lining up with Diouf and N'Zogbia, or Diouf and Duff wide of Crouch? Then in the summer buy that playmaker and a centre-half. Then you can go back to padding out the squad again to keep improving it and freshening it up as players get older (Viduka, Cacapa) and as players become unhappy (Ameobi, Taylor maybe).

 

 

If we don't do this I feel we will go nowhere under Big Sam or with any manager at the helm for that matter. Now I'm confident if Sam was giving say 5 years, he could turn us into a top 6 outfit like he did with Bolton working the transfer market like he has done all his career and I would be prepared to accept that personally, but I doubt there would be many who would join me.

 

Anyone?

 

Sadly in this day and age the only way to fast-track progress is by spending big money ala Man City or Chelsea because money rules and no club these days are prepared to give managers the kind of time Big Sam enjoyed at Bolton. We don't have to follow that exact example of Man City and Chelsea though and I doubt we would anyway (I wouldn't want us to), but we could spend big on one player at a time instead of spending say £18m on 5 or 8 as we did in the Summer.

 

Otherwise Big Sam will end up getting the chop at some stage. You are only as good as the tools you have at your disposal and from where I sit we are an average team with no true outstanding individuals crying out for some genuine quality in the right areas. Well we do have quality, but neither Owen or Viduka are exactly the type of player you can rely on and build a team around are they where as the likes of N'Zogbia have potential but that's it at this moment in time?!

 

Many fans assumed Big Sam would walk into this job and do what he did at Bolton but on a bigger scale and are therefore disappointed we are not this strong, consistent team, but forgetting he had 8 years to build Bolton up, was under zero pressure compared to what he's under here so could give players like Haim an opportunity and work on them over the course of years not months to turn them into stars and that finishing in the top 10 was considered an achievement.

 

NUFC and his new job here is a whole new ball game.

 

You can't be a miracle worker at NUFC, i.e. expect him to do what he did at Bolton on a much bigger scale though. That would be like asking Fergie to go to Bolton and win them the League without any money. NUFC demands quality players, our aspirations demand such players and these players demand big money, or rather their clubs do. And so should Sam. If he wants to join the likes of Rafa as a top manager he needs a leg up.

 

If these type of funds aren't forthcoming in Jan at the least that to me would suggest Big Sam isn't going to be here long....

[Dave]

One day next year I might read that.

[Guest Knightrider]

One day next year I might read that.

 

It was meant to be a short post, but I can't help myself

[Decky]

Read bits and pieces there, i said this in another thread:

 

Im fully behind Sam, i really believe that in 2 years he will have a good side built here, i even believe next season we will be alot stronger, we havent been the best now because Sam has a system but doesnt have all the players he needs  yet to suit that system, in another window or two we will begin to see his side take shape.

 

At the end of the day if the likes of Souness and Roeder get a season and a half, someone like Big Sam deserves at least the same.

 

Is that basically what your saying?

[Guest Knightrider]

Read bits and pieces there, i said this in another thread:

 

Im fully behind Sam, i really believe that in 2 years he will have a good side built here, i even believe next season we will be alot stronger, we havent been the best now because Sam has a system but doesnt have all the players he needs  yet to suit that system, in another window or two we will begin to see his side take shape.

 

At the end of the day if the likes of Souness and Roeder get a season and a half, someone like Big Sam deserves at least the same.

 

Is that basically what your saying?

 

Yes, but far more eloquently

[Guest Brewcastle]

It shouldn't be neccesary to spend many years (8) to bring NUFC into top six. We were there 3 years in row, just 3 seasons ago. And went direct from Ch.ship to 3rd in mid. 90's, and stayed in the top.

If Sam is the right one, he doesnt need many years. If he starts to show some progress, it's OK for me he can go on for a while. But so far,g he looks clueless about so much he do (or not do)  in my eyes.

[Zero]

Honestly I just have a glance, it's too long...

Robson's signing is actually a very risky type, e.g. Cort, Viana, Bramble cost us a lot of money.

The best bargain under Robson's era is Acuna, O'Brien(I know he is s***, but at 1m he is a bargain), not to mention the cheap cost of Garragher, Bernard and Distin(loan). His big signings transform the team into next level but it's the cheap signings that constitutes the real backbone of the team. Without such kind of players the big signings are useless.

However I do agree that we need a few 8m+ signings now. Yes you can blame Sam for signing Geremi, Smith, Barton... such kinda grafters that limits our play, but they actually are good backbone-type players. I am not saying that they are indispensable players but when needed they can do a fair job and help the others shine. So now we have enough of them and Sam should start to buy players like Manuel Fernandes.

 

And Arsenal is simply incomparable. Check out the cost of their defense line, the cost of Fabregas, the ridiculous price of Rosicky and Van Persie...It is just crazy, a cheap signings by Wenger may turn out even more valuable than a 10m+ big signings. The theory simply doesn't apply for Arsenal.

[Zero]

It shouldn't be neccesary to spend many years (8) to bring NUFC into top six. We were there 3 years in row, just 3 seasons ago. And went direct from Ch.ship to 3rd in mid. 90's, and stayed in the top.

If Sam is the right one, he doesnt need many years. If he starts to show some progress, it's OK for me he can go on for a while. But so far,g he looks clueless about so much he do (or not do)  in my eyes.

 

I would say 2 seasons is the limit. After that if things still doesn't look good he should be fired.

 

Oh yea he should resign to save us compensation.

[Crumpy Gunt]

At this moment in time I would consider NUFC are merely treading water. Allardyce is the final link to Fred/Halls regime but I think Ashleys hands are tied at this moment in time - how could he sack a manager before he had been in charge for a single match?. (Although performances in general will be loosening the P45 pen - if theres a God it will anyway)

 

Had he got control 1 month earlier I doubt Sam would have got the job. I think we'll have to see this season out before Ashley makes a decision - a decision that is very likely to be influenced by those who decide the Allardyce brand of turgid shite football just isn't worth £500 up front.

 

[Dave]

At this moment in time I would consider NUFC are merely treading water. Allardyce is the final link to Fred/Halls regime but I think Ashleys hands are tied at this moment in time - how could he sack a manager before he had been in charge for a single match?. (Although performances in general will be loosening the P45 pen - if theres a God it will anyway)

 

Had he got control 1 month earlier I doubt Sam would have got the job. I think we'll have to see this season out before Ashley makes a decision - a decision that is very likely to be influenced by those who decide the Allardyce brand of turgid shite football just isn't worth £500 up front.

 

 

Fair enough, that.

[Guest Knightrider]

Honestly I just have a glance, it's too long...

Robson's signing is actually a very risky type, e.g. Cort, Viana, Bramble cost us a lot of money.

The best bargain under Robson's era is Acuna, O'Brien(I know he is s***, but at 1m he is a bargain), not to mention the cheap cost of Garragher, Bernard and Distin(loan). His big signings transform the team into next level but it's the cheap signings that constitutes the real backbone of the team. Without such kind of players the big signings are useless.

However I do agree that we need a few 8m+ signings now. Yes you can blame Sam for signing Geremi, Smith, Barton... such kinda grafters that limits our play, but they actually are good backbone-type players. I am not saying that they are indispensable players but when needed they can do a fair job and help the others shine. So now we have enough of them and Sam should start to buy players like Manuel Fernandes.

 

And Arsenal is simply incomparable. Check out the cost of their defense line, the cost of Fabregas, the ridiculous price of Rosicky and Van Persie...It is just crazy, a cheap signings by Wenger may turn out even more valuable than a 10m+ big signings. The theory simply doesn't apply for Arsenal.

 

All the Acunas et al in the world wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference if Sir Bobby didn't sign Robert and Bellamy, two quality players (risky ones admittedly) but just as importantly, two right players for that team. I agree it is the squad players that provide the backbone of a squad, but wouldn't you say we now have that type of squad? Lets not forget either that by signing quality for the first-team, you push current first-teamers down into the squad pecking order meaning it gets strengthened anyway (the squad).

[Decky]

At this moment in time I would consider NUFC are merely treading water. Allardyce is the final link to Fred/Halls regime but I think Ashleys hands are tied at this moment in time - how could he sack a manager before he had been in charge for a single match?. (Although performances in general will be loosening the P45 pen - if theres a God it will anyway)

 

Had he got control 1 month earlier I doubt Sam would have got the job. I think we'll have to see this season out before Ashley makes a decision - a decision that is very likely to be influenced by those who decide the Allardyce brand of turgid shite football just isn't worth £500 up front.

 

 

Interesting point, maybe Ashley wants to spend big money here but is waiting to see if Sam is the man he wants to spend that money, i think if Sam gets sacked in the summer and Ashley gets his man we will begin to spend big money, however it remains to be seen weither or not Ashley will get us a good manager.

[Gallowgate Toon]

Cacapa certainly isn't average.

[Mick]

No manager deserves anything out of football, they've got to earn it and Allardyce hasn't done that so far.  He's got a very important 5 months coming up for both him and us because if he doesn't show he's worth time then he's gone because he'll have had enough time to have shown something.

 

I'm glad he's been given time but he's got to prove that he can take the club forwards.

 

His signings haven't been too good so far and you can't put that down to money, if it was money related then Smith Barton and Enrique would automatically be better than Beye and Faye, they aren't.  It doesn't matter how much you spend, you can screw up, just look at Souness for proof.

 

[Guest Knightrider]

At this moment in time I would consider NUFC are merely treading water. Allardyce is the final link to Fred/Halls regime but I think Ashleys hands are tied at this moment in time - how could he sack a manager before he had been in charge for a single match?. (Although performances in general will be loosening the P45 pen - if theres a God it will anyway)

 

Had he got control 1 month earlier I doubt Sam would have got the job. I think we'll have to see this season out before Ashley makes a decision - a decision that is very likely to be influenced by those who decide the Allardyce brand of turgid shite football just isn't worth £500 up front.

 

 

I agree, if things stay the way they are for much longer, then fans will probably determine whether he stays or goes but all managers need money and good money to buy quality. Souness and Roeder were able to spend big on one or two "quality" players so it would be foolish in my opinion for the board not to see what Big Sam could do with some extra money.

 

I disagree that we are treading water though, I think we've consolidated and can only kick-on from here providing the manager gets the time and funds to carry out that next part of the task.

 

Btw, who would you like to see replace Big Sam with? A lot of people are quick to say get rid or he's not the right man but hardly ever make sense when they talk about who they'd like to see replace him. It's either bollocks like Mourinho or sideway steps like Hughes. Or even more comical, Shearer!

 

Nah, for once I think we need to stick with our manager who looking at the average players we have, isn't doing too bad all things considered. Fair enough if we were right down at the bottom but we are actually ahead of that team whose manager a few fans, yourself included I seem to remember, would like here.

 

Lets face it, there would be no point in sacking the manager without first giving him some time and money where we will then be in a much better position to judge and determine whether he is indeed the right man or not, because I guarantee that whoever did come in would need exactly the same things; time and money.

 

Furthermore I can guarantee that all managers play players out of position, pick odd lineups, lose matches against so-called easy sides, and generally do things some fans don't like or agree with.

 

The very things that our fans just don't seem to have any patience for these days, things that have grown men stamping their feet like bairns and booing and hissing like girls.

 

Pathetic.

[Dave]

Btw, who would you like to see replace Big Sam with? A lot of people are quick to say get rid or he's not the right man but hardly ever make sense when they talk about who they'd like to see replace him. It's either bollocks like Mourinho or sideway steps like Hughes. Or even more comical, Shearer!

 

Whilst it's not for the fans to identify and install managers, I do agree when people mention those you have there.

[Guest Knightrider]

No manager deserves anything out of football, they've got to earn it and Allardyce hasn't done that so far.  He's got a very important 5 months coming up for both him and us because if he doesn't show he's worth time then he's gone because he'll have had enough time to have shown something.

 

I'm glad he's been given time but he's got to prove that he can take the club forwards.

 

His signings haven't been too good so far and you can't put that down to money, if it was money related then Smith Barton and Enrique would automatically be better than Beye and Faye, they aren't.  It doesn't matter how much you spend, you can screw up, just look at Souness for proof.

 

 

Where Big Sam is concerned, I think you're right he does have to earn it but only because he isn't Ashley's man and therefore it actually makes sense for Ashley to 'wait and see' first in many ways. However it's not the most ideal conditions for the manager nor indeed the club because he does need money, regardless. All managers need money. We can't expect him to manage Newcastle successfully without it, not now or whenever.

 

Yes his signings haven't all worked, that's to be expected though, most are hit and miss regardless of the manager, club and indeed players. But they are not lost causes, they can become good players in time. They still have that chance to prove themselves. Some might. Some won't. I do think the manager was correct to sign the players he did or had good justification for signing who he did. I mean for a period of the summer window he had to look at a certain type of player due to the internal review. In that respect I don't think he can be damned on the transfer front, not yet.

 

Anyway, it's quite simple for me. The board need to back him or sack him. Waiting to see could be 2003 all over again when Shepherd and Co decided to "keep the powder dry" until we safely made it into the Champions League proper. We didn't of course and the rest is history.

 

We won't improve to any great or greater degree as we are without some injection of cash to strengthen the first team with some quality players.

 

And if that type of funding isn't forthcoming, then the manager in my eyes will be working with one hand tied behind his back which will make it doubly hard to prove himself and with it take this team further to a satisfactory final league finish anyway.

 

But then maybe that's what people want. It's clear to me a good size don't want him here and will take that if it means he goes at the end of the season.

 

I just hope if that does happen, the new people are better at picking managers than the previous lot were.

[Shearer9]

As long as there's some kind of measurable progress as far as the league table is concerned, I'm happy to see Sam stay on.  I think if a quality manager had come into Bolton situation they would have been able to take the progress Sam had made and turn it into consistent European campaigns.  Add a few of the quality players that HTT's talking about and Bolton could be pulling a Man City right now, challenging the top 4.  Instead, they hired Lee and began to dismantle the squad.  Once Diouf and Anelka leave, there will be little left to indicate that Sam was in charge there.  Amazing how quickly things can fall apart. 

 

There's no reason that Sam shouldn't get the chance to spend bigger in the window and in the summer.  His hand was forced, he had to fill out the squad and get some depth in there or else we'd be playing academy kids by now due to injury problems.  I find it inconceivable that Sam doesn't realize the aesthetic value of the football is shite right now and that we need quality flair players.  People throw that around all the time, but I think it's stupid to suggest that he doesn't know that.  Sam's been around, and everybody watches the likes of Arsenal and Man Utd every week, he knows flair players are what are needed to be successful.

[Guest Knightrider]

Btw, who would you like to see replace Big Sam with? A lot of people are quick to say get rid or he's not the right man but hardly ever make sense when they talk about who they'd like to see replace him. It's either bollocks like Mourinho or sideway steps like Hughes. Or even more comical, Shearer!

 

Whilst it's not for the fans to identify and install managers, I do agree when people mention those you have there.

 

It isn't no, but it does show the level of stupidity among our fans when they blindly throw this and that name about without putting any thought into it. The number of times people have mentioned managers like Moyes, Hughes et al as good alternatives is hilarious because they often cite the very things they like about those managers that were strengths of Big Sam at Bolton or use these manager's clubs as identification of their management skills, again Bolton and Big Sam all over.

 

Yet you can guarantee the moment things turn sour, these very morons will be jumping on the manager's back just like they're doing now and have done for years now even when we had a good manager. Remember the booing against Wolves that season we finished 5th?

 

Honestly, why anyone would want us to sack Sam and replace him with Hughes or Moyes or managers like that baffles me because neither are any better and those two in particular are arguably worse.

 

I don't know about you but if we are to sack the manager once again I want a fucking exceptional manager in because seriously, if I had to endue more booing and talk of sackings once again from these utter cretins I think I may well lose the will to follow this club I dearly love. Talk about the lunatics running the asylum man!

 

Nah, I'll take my chances with Allardyce myself for the time being. At least you know what you're getting with him and even his harshest critics will probably concede that with a bit of time and funding he'd have us in the top 6. We could even finish there this season if we were to sign some good players in Jan and things go our way that's how strange the league is this season, no-one is consistent or standing out in that league we'd like to get closer to. I mean, we are what, 5 points off top 6?

 

You can imagine the reactions if we did finish there mind, the manager would turn from a cunt as some on here like to call him to a saint overnight so fickle and thick are wor fans.

[Guest Knightrider]

Hughes' record last 3 seasons:

 

15th, 6th, 10th

 

Big Sams' record last 3 seasons:

 

6th, 8th, 7th

 

Current positions in the table:

 

Newcastle 9th

Blackburn 10th

 

Aye, lets swap managers... 

 

[Guest Knightrider]

Or how about Moyes?

 

Moyes' record last 5 seasons:

 

7th, 17th, 4th, 11th, 6th

 

Net transfer spend: 23.7m

 

Big Sam's record last 5 seasons:

 

17th, 8th, 6th, 8th, 7th

 

Net transfer spend: £8.6m

 

Again, lets swap managers...

[Guest Knightrider]

O'Neill?

 

Last 5 seasons in the Premiership:

 

9th, 10th, 10th, 8th, 11th

 

Current position in the table: 8th

[Guest Knightrider]

Harry Redknapp, he was flavour of the month not so long back...

 

9th, 15th, 20th, 17th, 9th

 

(various clubs)

 

Curbishley?

 

12th, 7th, 11th, 13th, 15th

 

David O'Leary's looking to get back into football...

[Guest]

Ok, you've established Allardyce is near the top of what is widely regarded an average bunch of British managers...

[Decky]

I think the problem is we should have alot more points than we have now but because of bad tactics and formations in games like:

 

Derby (A), (H)

Sunderland (A)

Boro (A)

Reading (A)

 

We are left in 9th place, which is good yes, but alot of fans cant help wonder just where we would be right now if Sam did things like play Zog on the left of Midfield, not play Smith, not play Geremi etc.