Tooj Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 I'm not worried about N'Zogbia. I'd definitely like to see him on the wing in the near future, however i feel that playing him at left-back will have helped him as an all-round player. It'll have taught him some of the defensive responsibilities that a winger needs to adapt to - this was something that Robert never fully understood - and i feel that playing him a bit deeper for a while will have helped him towards becoming a 'complete' winger. It'll also have given him a greater desire to get forward and impress once he is nudged up to his preferred position. You could tell yesterday that he gave up on being a defender, he just didn't play at left-back, and i bet he did that on his own accord. What is most pleasing is that Sam could see this and could understand. Obviously, he's far from being 'complete' at the moment, but having him at left-back for this shortish time will have helped, imo. Very much looking forward to him going back into midfield now, though. I have a sneaky feeling we'll see a 4-4-2 with Charlie on the wing against City... Personally I couldn't care if Charlie never understood his defensive responsibilities if he gave us anywhere near as much as what Robert did with regards to productivity in the final third. Is this the same Robert that was slated at every opportunity by a huge section of the fans? It was indeed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
toptoon Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 In terms of development though I actually think he's getting a really good education at the moment and while it may not be the best option for the team, it can only do his game a world of good learning to play dual roles, especially long term. Have to say I don't agree at all. Charles needs to develop as a out and out Winger, holding him back and sticking him Left Back is not only damaging the team but its damaging the progression of one of the best young attacking players at the club. Seeing N'Zogbia get pulled to pieces by Shuan Wright-Phillips was not a sight I enjoyed yesterday nor did I think it was doing him good "in terms of development". Agree with Gallogate end. Play him on the LW ffs and Milner on the RW we need creativity. There both good at tracking back and digging in when needed. Smith or/and Martins can defend from the front an drop back into the MF when needed. We need to be more creative and maybe thenwe can look at introducing Owen or Viduka to finish our chances. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shak Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 My biggest gripe is the fact that all season we've had absolutely nobody capable of beating his man in the final third and doing something a bit different while N'Zogbia, though not the finished article, is certainly capable of doing that and has been stranded at left-back where he's not only wasted in an attacking sense, but also a weak link defensively. All this "playing him at left back will improve him in the long run" talk is guff as far as I'm concerned as well. I'd have thought actually playing him in the position that he's going to spend his career would improve him much more long term personally. As has been said, he's still got to work on his ability to consistently effect the game in the attacking third. Hard to see him doing that at left-back. But it may improve him slightly in a defensive sense in the long-run, so whoop di-do!! With Duff back now there's even more competition for the left side spot and if I'm being honest I've absolutely no faith in Allardyce to ever give him a run of games in that position to even try and make it his own. Two years ago he was our most promising young player, coming off the back of a great season on the left where, while not the finished article by any means, he looked to be a potential star in the making. Since then I doubt he's ever gotten two starts in a row on the left side. If that's not an absolutely dreadful display of attempting to nourish your best young talent, then I don't know what is. And it pisses me off, quite frankly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shayno Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Think he would be awesome on the left side of a three man midfield. Linking up with Duff and Enrique on the left Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Knightrider Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 My biggest gripe is the fact that all season we've had absolutely nobody capable of beating his man in the final third and doing something a bit different while N'Zogbia, though not the finished article, is certainly capable of doing that and has been stranded at left-back where he's not only wasted in an attacking sense, but also a weak link defensively. He has done what you're asking from left-back though, as has Milner at times so you're overexagerating a little I feel. I mean most of our good play comes down the left which is pretty strong in an attacking sense with N'Zogbia and Milner down there. All this "playing him at left back will improve him in the long run" talk is guff as far as I'm concerned as well. I'd have thought actually playing him in the position that he's going to spend his career would improve him much more long term personally. As has been said, he's still got to work on his ability to consistently effect the game in the attacking third. Hard to see him doing that at left-back. But it may improve him slightly in a defensive sense in the long-run, so whoop di-do!! You simply can't underestimate the education he's getting in terms of development, this is one of the reasons why England fails at international level because our players are brought up in fixed positions instead of learning to play a number of them to improve their all-round game. With Duff back now there's even more competition for the left side spot and if I'm being honest I've absolutely no faith in Allardyce to ever give him a run of games in that position to even try and make it his own. All I care about is the team, if N'Zogbia stays at left-back and Duff plays on the left-wing ahead of N'Zogbia I couldn't care less so long as we're getting joy out of it. This clamour to have him in on the left-wing is actually amusing, given that the player himself would prefer to play in the middle. Two years ago he was our most promising young player, coming off the back of a great season on the left where, while not the finished article by any means, he looked to be a potential star in the making. Great season? He did OK in an exceptionally poor side. He has since never quite excelled on the left-flank as a winger, for me anyway. Since then I doubt he's ever gotten two starts in a row on the left side. If that's not an absolutely dreadful display of attempting to nourish your best young talent, then I don't know what is. And it pisses me off, quite frankly. Perhaps now we can see how many of our players get too big for their boots or why NUFC has had a problem with players thinking they are bigger than the club, because fans care more for the individual than the team or rather have a twisted way of looking at things through a player's perspective rather than the team or indeed the manager's. "Poor Charlie, stranded at left-back" "BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" IMO anyway. PS I'm not saying you're stamping your feet or care more about the individual than the team btw. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shak Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 My biggest gripe is the fact that all season we've had absolutely nobody capable of beating his man in the final third and doing something a bit different while N'Zogbia, though not the finished article, is certainly capable of doing that and has been stranded at left-back where he's not only wasted in an attacking sense, but also a weak link defensively. He has done what you're asking from left-back though, as has Milner at times so you're overexagerating a little I feel. I mean most of our good play comes down the left which is pretty strong in an attacking sense with N'Zogbia and Milner down there. All this "playing him at left back will improve him in the long run" talk is guff as far as I'm concerned as well. I'd have thought actually playing him in the position that he's going to spend his career would improve him much more long term personally. As has been said, he's still got to work on his ability to consistently effect the game in the attacking third. Hard to see him doing that at left-back. But it may improve him slightly in a defensive sense in the long-run, so whoop di-do!! You simply can't underestimate the education he's getting in terms of development, this is one of the reasons why England fails at international level because our players are brought up in fixed positions instead of learning to play a number of them to improve their all-round game. Still reckon he'd be better served getting a game or two in a position he has a furute in personally, but fair enough. With Duff back now there's even more competition for the left side spot and if I'm being honest I've absolutely no faith in Allardyce to ever give him a run of games in that position to even try and make it his own. All I care about is the team, if N'Zogbia stays at left-back and Duff plays on the left-wing ahead of N'Zogbia I couldn't care less so long as we're getting joy out of it. This clamour to have him in on the left-wing is actually amusing, given that the player himself would prefer to play in the middle. The team is my main concern as well, which is obvious. I just feel, very strongly, that the team would benefit with what I BELIEVE to be our most exciting young player being used to his full potential. I may be wrong and he may turn out shit, and fair enough. But is it so much to ask he gets a chance there? Two years ago he was our most promising young player, coming off the back of a great season on the left where, while not the finished article by any means, he looked to be a potential star in the making. Great season? He did OK in an exceptionally poor side. He has since never quite excelled on the left-flank as a winger, for me anyway. Our stand out player at age 19, I'd say that's fairly good, personally. And he's not excelled there since, which goes back to my point about his treatment. I don't hold a grudge against Duff personally for it (anymore ), but once Duff was bought it was clear N'Zogbia was playing second fiddle in that spot. Has he shined there in his few opportunities? No, but I really think he was poorly treated, particularly by Roeder who clearly didn't want him at the club at all. Since then I doubt he's ever gotten two starts in a row on the left side. If that's not an absolutely dreadful display of attempting to nourish your best young talent, then I don't know what is. And it pisses me off, quite frankly. Perhaps now we can see how many of our players get too big for their boots or why NUFC has had a problem with players thinking they are bigger than the club, because fans care more for the individual than the team or rather have a twisted way of looking at things through a player's perspective rather than the team or indeed the manager's. "Poor Charlie, stranded at left-back" "BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" IMO anyway. PS I'm not saying you're stamping your feet or care more about the individual than the team btw. Again, I'll go back to my point about wasting what I personally believe to be potentially our most dangerous player and ask how exactly this helps the team, which has been absolutely inept going forward, on the whole? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Knightrider Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 N'Zogbia went into a huff when we signed Duff so is to blame also for his no shows last season. It wasn't all Roeder's fault. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shak Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 N'Zogbia went into a huff when we signed Duff so is to blame also for his no shows last season. It wasn't all Roeder's fault. Roeder started it... Anyway, sadly I've picked a bad time to start a debate. Going away on holiday for a week or so right now so I'll just wish everyone a Happy New Year's and be on my way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shak Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Actually, since a ban won't effect me in the slightest. Wullie and 2J are absolute wankers, Dave too. And Gejon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Knightrider Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Aye happy New Year Shak. May you get your wish that N'Zogbia ends up on the left Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 just saw the man himself in the gate, didn't look happy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 just saw the man himself in the gate, didn't look happy He never does though. Constantly looks like he's straining for a shit. Although not as much as Andy Cole does. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fugazi Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 just saw the man himself in the gate, didn't look happy There's a surprise, was he on his phone? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATB Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 just saw the man himself in the gate, didn't look happy I think I never seem him smile and I dont think he ever will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 just saw the man himself in the gate, didn't look happy There's a surprise, was he on his phone? no but he had the ipod headphones in Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Get rid. Too skillful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 he's only our best player when on the ball (and even then it's only been the last couple of games).still, as a defender he lacks most defensive qualities Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 he's only our best player when on the ball (and even then it's only been the last couple of games).still, as a defender he lacks most defensive qualities That's when most good players are at their best tbf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 he's only our best player when on the ball (and even then it's only been the last couple of games).still, as a defender he lacks most defensive qualities That's when most good players are at their best tbf not when in the defensive positions Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 he's only our best player when on the ball (and even then it's only been the last couple of games).still, as a defender he lacks most defensive qualities That's when most good players are at their best tbf not when in the defensive positions Point taken Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 I've said before that I think he looks better as an attacking force playing at left back because he gets more space. Playing as a winger you rarely receive the ball without the opposing fullback being in your face and often the defending team will double up on you. You just have to see how many times Milner faces up to two defenders around the box and then lays the ball back to an unmarked N'Zogbia to cross. I'm not convinced N'Zogbia will look half as threatening when playing in a more advanced position right now but if he works on his passing and ball retention he certainly could be in the future. That is precisely the reason why Sam has decided to use him as a left back. Just because he does well attacking from defence does not mean that he'd be even more effective if pushed further forward. Zoggy's assets are his pace, his acceleration and his change of direction. If given time and space, he can use those assets. Unfortunately his touch on the ball is not great, and if he receives the ball under pressure in a tight area, as wingers usually have to do, he more often than not loses it. This becomes even more obvious on the occasions when he gets shifted into the centre, when he looks completely lost and unable to retain or use the ball constructively. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 I've said before that I think he looks better as an attacking force playing at left back because he gets more space. Playing as a winger you rarely receive the ball without the opposing fullback being in your face and often the defending team will double up on you. You just have to see how many times Milner faces up to two defenders around the box and then lays the ball back to an unmarked N'Zogbia to cross. I'm not convinced N'Zogbia will look half as threatening when playing in a more advanced position right now but if he works on his passing and ball retention he certainly could be in the future. That is precisely the reason why Sam has decided to use him as a left back. Just because he does well attacking from defence does not mean that he'd be even more effective if pushed further forward. Zoggy's assets are his pace, his acceleration and his change of direction. If given time and space, he can use those assets. Unfortunately his touch on the ball is not great, and if he receives the ball under pressure in a tight area, as wingers usually have to do, he more often than not loses it. This becomes even more obvious on the occasions when he gets shifted into the centre, when he looks completely lost and unable to retain or use the ball constructively. are we forgetting that he's not very good defensivly (even in midfield his defensive capabilities are poor...i hope they come with experience) which is a bit of a bugger for a player playing in a defensive position. now i like an attacking full back, brought up watching alan kennedy and irving nattrass me was,but they could defend aswell and the attacking bit was a bonus. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keefaz Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 He's a liability in defence as the match yesterday surely proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 He's a liability in defence as the match yesterday surely proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. to be fair yesterday was his worst defensivly and he doesnt normally get caught out that much but he is no defender Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keefaz Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 He's a liability in defence as the match yesterday surely proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. to be fair yesterday was his worst defensivly and he doesnt normally get caught out that much but he is no defender Not to that extent, but he's had some bad lapses in a number of matches this season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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