Howaythelads Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Sounds like when you tried to rope me into talking about Dyer. In all seriousness. I fail to see why people kick up such a fuss, and have it in for people who have ambition for the football club and are prepared to show it. [i'm talking about the board, in case you don't realise] However, Dire was a talented player. I was watching his early few years a few days ago on video, and a Birmingham supporter who I knew at the time we bought him assured me that he would play for England and be a good player, sprung to mind. Fact is though, he failed to fulfull it due to a s*** attitude, injury problems, and in the end, the club are better off without him because there was basically no way back for him. What would a Birmingham fan know about Dyer?? Was there any point in you diving in with this stupid question? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Ditto? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Ditto? http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ditto 1 : a thing mentioned previously or above — used to avoid repeating a word Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 What? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 What? www.your-pissing-in-the-wind.com Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howaythelads Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 I understand your point but i dont quite see how lowering expectations are a bad thing for the club in the situation we are in now. Ambition and expectations are 2 different things, lowering ambition is a bad bad thing but is by no means affected by attempting to lower the expectations. Not true. If your expectation is Champions league football, your ambition is to win the league. If your expectation is UEFA cup football, your ambition is Champions league football. If your expectation is mid table, your ambition is UEFA cup football. If your expectation is lower table, your ambition is mid table. If your expectation is relegation, your ambition is lower table. In all cases your short term ambition is the next stage above your expectation, so lowering expectation inherently lowers (short term) ambition. What you are saying is that people's current expectation is too high and unrealistic for any manager. All others are saying is that expecting a visible improvement on the previous manager - who was considered bad enough to get rid of - is not an unreasonable expectation. You won't find many people who had Europe this season as a minimum expectation. Having read the comments from Bill and the definition list from Ben, I was going to reply, but you've explained it very well yet again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howaythelads Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Ditto Glad you agree. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 I can't understand why anyone would pour so much of their own money into buying and clearing the debts of a football club if they don't have the ambition of getting them into Europe on a regular basis. It makes no sense at all. I would like to agree. Do you not think its possible that he has made it more saleable ? Instead of saying "clearing the debts", which I'm not undermining in the slightest, clearing the mortgage as it were, is a fantastic thing, why not consider that the price of buying the club was 200m quid ? Of course it's possible. Hope against hope he doesn't decide to just sell up, though I can't see how us not being back in Europe makes us any more desirable. Whether he's here for the long haul or for the quick buck, he must want (need?) us back in Europe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 I can't understand why anyone would pour so much of their own money into buying and clearing the debts of a football club if they don't have the ambition of getting them into Europe on a regular basis. It makes no sense at all. I would like to agree. Do you not think its possible that he has made it more saleable ? Instead of saying "clearing the debts", which I'm not undermining in the slightest, clearing the mortgage as it were, is a fantastic thing, why not consider that the price of buying the club was 200m quid ? Of course it's possible. Hope against hope he doesn't decide to just sell up, though I can't see how us not being back in Europe makes us any more desirable. Whether he's here for the long haul or for the quick buck, he must want (need?) us back in Europe. thats what I've been saying all along, or hoping !!! My point is that showing ambition means taking risks, financial risks. On the other hand, he could settle for mid table financial stability. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredbob Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 I understand your point but i dont quite see how lowering expectations are a bad thing for the club in the situation we are in now. Ambition and expectations are 2 different things, lowering ambition is a bad bad thing but is by no means affected by attempting to lower the expectations. Not true. If your expectation is Champions league football, your ambition is to win the league. If your expectation is UEFA cup football, your ambition is Champions league football. If your expectation is mid table, your ambition is UEFA cup football. If your expectation is lower table, your ambition is mid table. If your expectation is relegation, your ambition is lower table. In all cases your short term ambition is the next stage above your expectation, so lowering expectation inherently lowers (short term) ambition. What you are saying is that people's current expectation is too high and unrealistic for any manager. All others are saying is that expecting a visible improvement on the previous manager - who was considered bad enough to get rid of - is not an unreasonable expectation. You won't find many people who had Europe this season as a minimum expectation. This is the key to yours and the borthers grim entire argument it would appear, and is pretty short sighted and also not what im arguing, because after all, ambition is always in the long term. Its the ultimate goal. The use of "short term ambition" would suggest that you understad that point as well. Im actually saying that as long as the long term, ultimate goal stays the same (which it will do) and we are constantly looking to achieve our ultimate goal, then what harm does lowering the expecations and short term goals have on that ultimate ambtion being achieved? Does lowering the expectations give the management and board a more healthier environment to achieve success. I think so. As for the comment about improvement on Roeder, id have to agree to a certain degree, we havent seen a visible improvement on the field, but in defence of Allardyce and Mort we have seen what appears to be a massive upheaval in what happens off it. This links directly with my view that as long as we are "constantly looking to achieve our ultimate goal" then it would be ok in the long run to lower our expectations a bit in the short term. Dont get me wrong, i dont find what is occuring on the pitch acceptable, but i think with all the changes that have occured off the pitch, its already an improvement on what we saw last year. Maybe that should of been our expectations, to see some stability at the club. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 If stability is finishing mid table every season then i don't want it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredbob Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 If stability is finishing mid table every season then i don't want it. If stablilty is having a healthy environemnt to achieve a considerable amount, then i want it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 If stability is finishing mid table every season then i don't want it. If stablilty is having a healthy environemnt to achieve a considerable amount, then i want it. You need ambition to 'achieve a considerable amount' you don't just get that from stability. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredbob Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 If stability is finishing mid table every season then i don't want it. If stablilty is having a healthy environemnt to achieve a considerable amount, then i want it. You need ambition to 'achieve a considerable amount' you don't just get that from stability. We do have ambition, but we didnt have the means to achieve it at the time that Allardyce took over, ie youth system, scouting, backroon staff etc. There didnt seem to be a plan but there was an apparent burdening debt which looked to afffect the future fo the club. Stability for me is having the platform to achieve something. We look like a different club off the field, but now we need to sort whats going on it. Whats the solution? Sack the manager, taking that stability away or stick with him see where he may lead us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 If stability is finishing mid table every season then i don't want it. If stablilty is having a healthy environemnt to achieve a considerable amount, then i want it. You need ambition to 'achieve a considerable amount' you don't just get that from stability. We do have ambition, but we didnt have the means to achieve it at the time that Allardyce took over, ie youth system, scouting, backroon staff etc. There didnt seem to be a plan but there was an apparent burdening debt which looked to afffect the future fo the club. Stability for me is having the platform to achieve something. We look like a different club off the field, but now we need to sort whats going on it. Whats the solution? Sack the manager, taking that stability away or stick with him see where he may lead us. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz So, we qualified for europe more than everybody but 4 teams, and everybody had a "plan and a platform to achieve something" except us Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredbob Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 If stability is finishing mid table every season then i don't want it. If stablilty is having a healthy environemnt to achieve a considerable amount, then i want it. You need ambition to 'achieve a considerable amount' you don't just get that from stability. We do have ambition, but we didnt have the means to achieve it at the time that Allardyce took over, ie youth system, scouting, backroon staff etc. There didnt seem to be a plan but there was an apparent burdening debt which looked to afffect the future fo the club. Stability for me is having the platform to achieve something. We look like a different club off the field, but now we need to sort whats going on it. Whats the solution? Sack the manager, taking that stability away or stick with him see where he may lead us. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz So, we qualified for europe more than everybody but 4 teams, and everybody had a "plan" except us Crap stat, said it all before but you see what you wanna see. Not saying we didnt have a plan, but do you think we implented the plan to the end seeing as though you wanna go down that route? Boring. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 If stability is finishing mid table every season then i don't want it. If stablilty is having a healthy environemnt to achieve a considerable amount, then i want it. You need ambition to 'achieve a considerable amount' you don't just get that from stability. We do have ambition, but we didnt have the means to achieve it at the time that Allardyce took over, ie youth system, scouting, backroon staff etc. There didnt seem to be a plan but there was an apparent burdening debt which looked to afffect the future fo the club. Stability for me is having the platform to achieve something. We look like a different club off the field, but now we need to sort whats going on it. Whats the solution? Sack the manager, taking that stability away or stick with him see where he may lead us. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz So, we qualified for europe more than everybody but 4 teams, and everybody had a "plan" except us Crap stat, said it all before but you see what you wanna see. Not saying we didnt have a plan, but do you think we implented the plan to the end seeing as though you wanna go down that route? Boring. not for the first time, factual information destroys your entire "opinion" What do you mean "to the end". Are you saying we should have gave Dalglish, gullit, Souness or Roeder 5 years ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thespence Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 We do have ambition, but we didnt have the means to achieve it at the time that Allardyce took over, ie youth system, scouting, backroon staff etc. There didnt seem to be a plan but there was an apparent burdening debt which looked to afffect the future fo the club. Stability for me is having the platform to achieve something. We look like a different club off the field, but now we need to sort whats going on it. Whats the solution? Sack the manager, taking that stability away or stick with him see where he may lead us. What season are we expecting to see the fruits of this plan, any ideas? What if all these other pesky clubs have plans I have a plan that some class maverick, others say it is a timeless classic plan: HAVE BETTER PLAYERS THAN THE OPPOSTION & THEN WHEN YOU PLAY THEM SCORE MORE GOALS THAN THEM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredbob Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 We do have ambition, but we didnt have the means to achieve it at the time that Allardyce took over, ie youth system, scouting, backroon staff etc. There didnt seem to be a plan but there was an apparent burdening debt which looked to afffect the future fo the club. Stability for me is having the platform to achieve something. We look like a different club off the field, but now we need to sort whats going on it. Whats the solution? Sack the manager, taking that stability away or stick with him see where he may lead us. What season are we expecting to see the fruits of this plan, any ideas? What if all these other pesky clubs have plans I have a plan that some class maverick, others say it is a timeless classic plan: HAVE BETTER PLAYERS THAN THE OPPOSTION & THEN WHEN YOU PLAY THEM SCORE MORE GOALS THAN THEM I dont know but lets sack him after 8 months and never find out rahter than giving him a reasonable amount of time to find out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredbob Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 If stability is finishing mid table every season then i don't want it. If stablilty is having a healthy environemnt to achieve a considerable amount, then i want it. You need ambition to 'achieve a considerable amount' you don't just get that from stability. We do have ambition, but we didnt have the means to achieve it at the time that Allardyce took over, ie youth system, scouting, backroon staff etc. There didnt seem to be a plan but there was an apparent burdening debt which looked to afffect the future fo the club. Stability for me is having the platform to achieve something. We look like a different club off the field, but now we need to sort whats going on it. Whats the solution? Sack the manager, taking that stability away or stick with him see where he may lead us. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz So, we qualified for europe more than everybody but 4 teams, and everybody had a "plan" except us Crap stat, said it all before but you see what you wanna see. Not saying we didnt have a plan, but do you think we implented the plan to the end seeing as though you wanna go down that route? Boring. not for the first time, factual information destroys your entire "opinion" What do you mean "to the end". Are you saying we should have gave Dalglish, gullit, Souness or Roeder 5 years ? Facts which dont paint a true picture. Im saying that a plan has an point, do you think that the board implented there plan in the end? Are we reaping the benefits of this plan? Was Souness part of this long term plan? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thespence Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 We do have ambition, but we didnt have the means to achieve it at the time that Allardyce took over, ie youth system, scouting, backroon staff etc. There didnt seem to be a plan but there was an apparent burdening debt which looked to afffect the future fo the club. Stability for me is having the platform to achieve something. We look like a different club off the field, but now we need to sort whats going on it. Whats the solution? Sack the manager, taking that stability away or stick with him see where he may lead us. What season are we expecting to see the fruits of this plan, any ideas? What if all these other pesky clubs have plans I have a plan that some class maverick, others say it is a timeless classic plan: HAVE BETTER PLAYERS THAN THE OPPOSTION & THEN WHEN YOU PLAY THEM SCORE MORE GOALS THAN THEM I dont know but lets sack him after 8 months and never find out rahter than giving him a reasonable amount of time to find out. Did I say sack him? Did you even read my post? What is a reasonable amount of time, how long are YOU willing to give Sam? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 If stability is finishing mid table every season then i don't want it. If stablilty is having a healthy environemnt to achieve a considerable amount, then i want it. You need ambition to 'achieve a considerable amount' you don't just get that from stability. We do have ambition, but we didnt have the means to achieve it at the time that Allardyce took over, ie youth system, scouting, backroon staff etc. There didnt seem to be a plan but there was an apparent burdening debt which looked to afffect the future fo the club. Stability for me is having the platform to achieve something. We look like a different club off the field, but now we need to sort whats going on it. Whats the solution? Sack the manager, taking that stability away or stick with him see where he may lead us. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz So, we qualified for europe more than everybody but 4 teams, and everybody had a "plan" except us Crap stat, said it all before but you see what you wanna see. Not saying we didnt have a plan, but do you think we implented the plan to the end seeing as though you wanna go down that route? Boring. not for the first time, factual information destroys your entire "opinion" What do you mean "to the end". Are you saying we should have gave Dalglish, gullit, Souness or Roeder 5 years ? Facts which dont paint a true picture. Im saying that a plan has an point, do you think that the board implented there plan in the end? Are we reaping the benefits of this plan? Was Souness part of this long term plan? So we didn't have a "plan" during the era of Dalglish, Gullit, Souness and Roeder ? And you think we should have gave all of them more time to implement their "plans" If we had no "plan", then all those 87 clubs we qualified for europe more than, can't have had much of a "plan" themselves, wouldn't you agree ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colos Short and Curlies Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 We do have ambition, but we didnt have the means to achieve it at the time that Allardyce took over, ie youth system, scouting, backroon staff etc. There didnt seem to be a plan but there was an apparent burdening debt which looked to afffect the future fo the club. Stability for me is having the platform to achieve something. We look like a different club off the field, but now we need to sort whats going on it. Whats the solution? Sack the manager, taking that stability away or stick with him see where he may lead us. What season are we expecting to see the fruits of this plan, any ideas? What if all these other pesky clubs have plans I have a plan that some class maverick, others say it is a timeless classic plan: HAVE BETTER PLAYERS THAN THE OPPOSTION & THEN WHEN YOU PLAY THEM SCORE MORE GOALS THAN THEM I dont know but lets sack him after 8 months and never find out rahter than giving him a reasonable amount of time to find out. Whilst I fully agree on giving the right man time - and it can be stongly argued that Sam's Premier League record should merit him a 'fitting in season', I'd question whether he is the right man to give the time to... If we give Sam 4 years he may get us into the top 6 as a matter of course (no one can say he will or he wont). But he has stated before that he wants to retire early, and is therefore unlikely to give us any more of his time. What then? Do we get in another pragmatic defensive coach and continue to be bored? Or do we then get an attacking coach who will need to change the midfield and forward line? Or do we look for a younger, forward thinking coach who we can look to long term and also allow succession planning to take place? (Had this discussion at work this week and it was easier to talk about then get it down in a short post so apologies if it seems muddled...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colos Short and Curlies Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 If stability is finishing mid table every season then i don't want it. If stablilty is having a healthy environemnt to achieve a considerable amount, then i want it. You need ambition to 'achieve a considerable amount' you don't just get that from stability. We do have ambition, but we didnt have the means to achieve it at the time that Allardyce took over, ie youth system, scouting, backroon staff etc. There didnt seem to be a plan but there was an apparent burdening debt which looked to afffect the future fo the club. Stability for me is having the platform to achieve something. We look like a different club off the field, but now we need to sort whats going on it. Whats the solution? Sack the manager, taking that stability away or stick with him see where he may lead us. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz So, we qualified for europe more than everybody but 4 teams, and everybody had a "plan" except us Crap stat, said it all before but you see what you wanna see. Not saying we didnt have a plan, but do you think we implented the plan to the end seeing as though you wanna go down that route? Boring. not for the first time, factual information destroys your entire "opinion" What do you mean "to the end". Are you saying we should have gave Dalglish, gullit, Souness or Roeder 5 years ? Facts which dont paint a true picture. Im saying that a plan has an point, do you think that the board implented there plan in the end? Are we reaping the benefits of this plan? Was Souness part of this long term plan? So we didn't have a "plan" during the era of Dalglish, Gullit, Souness and Roeder ? And you think we should have gave all of them more time to implement their "plans" If we had no "plan", then all those 87 clubs we qualified for europe more than, can't have had much of a "plan" themselves, wouldn't you agree ? At least 2 of our european campaigns have been back door though (losing cup finalists under Gullit, snaking into the Intertoto under Bobby) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howaythelads Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 If stability is finishing mid table every season then i don't want it. If stablilty is having a healthy environemnt to achieve a considerable amount, then i want it. You need ambition to 'achieve a considerable amount' you don't just get that from stability. We do have ambition, but we didnt have the means to achieve it at the time that Allardyce took over, ie youth system, scouting, backroon staff etc. There didnt seem to be a plan but there was an apparent burdening debt which looked to afffect the future fo the club. Stability for me is having the platform to achieve something. We look like a different club off the field, but now we need to sort whats going on it. Whats the solution? Sack the manager, taking that stability away or stick with him see where he may lead us. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz So, we qualified for europe more than everybody but 4 teams, and everybody had a "plan" except us Crap stat, said it all before but you see what you wanna see. Not saying we didnt have a plan, but do you think we implented the plan to the end seeing as though you wanna go down that route? Boring. not for the first time, factual information destroys your entire "opinion" What do you mean "to the end". Are you saying we should have gave Dalglish, gullit, Souness or Roeder 5 years ? Facts which dont paint a true picture. Im saying that a plan has an point, do you think that the board implented there plan in the end? Are we reaping the benefits of this plan? Was Souness part of this long term plan? So we didn't have a "plan" during the era of Dalglish, Gullit, Souness and Roeder ? And you think we should have gave all of them more time to implement their "plans" If we had no "plan", then all those 87 clubs we qualified for europe more than, can't have had much of a "plan" themselves, wouldn't you agree ? At least 2 of our european campaigns have been back door though (losing cup finalists under Gullit, snaking into the Intertoto under Bobby) For "back door" what you really mean is, "within the rules that apply to all clubs." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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