Parky Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 I didn't say it was a radical idea did I? The fact is this club over the last few years have forked out big money on wages for average older players that we can't shift as well as ignoring the academy, the club now want to go in the other direction and bring quality young players in that have their best years in front of them, they're also likely to be on smaller wages. At the same time they're looking to boost the academy (which will take time) so we can have better players coming through. No surprise to see people over scrutinise a comment on here though. It was a rhetorical question. The intention is admirable. The problem is that you need to give a manager with outstanding judgement the final say on whether he thinks he can get those young players playing well, and then also a manager of outstanding skill to actually get them out onto the pitch doing it. Arsenal have both those men in Arsene Wenger. We do not. Nor did we in Kevin Keegan if some (including Mike Ashley and his staff) are to be believed. Which begs the question, why bring him back? That's not one I expect you to answer either btw, seeing as you've already said it was a mistake. The fact is that pretty much all successful models rely on the man who organises and coaches the team having the authority to determine his own pool of playing staff. Totally agree. ...and even if clubs do try and precis a model like Arsenal's (setting aside the manager issue) they need to hire the right calibre of top tier management...Wise just isn't that. As SBR asked, "What exactly are his qualifications for the job"? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 We were never going to be able to recruit the volume of players we needed in one transfer window. Firstly, that is a lot of signings, and secondly, it requires getting some of the wasters off the wage bill. The important thing was we were getting players in of the right quality, and moving in the right direction. The impatience of some people is staggering. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 We were never going to be able to recruit the volume of players we needed in one transfer window. Firstly, that is a lot of signings, and secondly, it requires getting some of the wasters off the wage bill. The important thing was we were getting players in of the right quality, and moving in the right direction. The impatience of some people is staggering. Kevin Keegan? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 We were never going to be able to recruit the volume of players we needed in one transfer window. Firstly, that is a lot of signings, and secondly, it requires getting some of the wasters off the wage bill. The important thing was we were getting players in of the right quality, and moving in the right direction. The impatience of some people is staggering. What have they been doing since christmas then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 I didn't say it was a radical idea did I? The fact is this club over the last few years have forked out big money on wages for average older players that we can't shift as well as ignoring the academy, the club now want to go in the other direction and bring quality young players in that have their best years in front of them, they're also likely to be on smaller wages. At the same time they're looking to boost the academy (which will take time) so we can have better players coming through. No surprise to see people over scrutinise a comment on here though. It was a rhetorical question. The intention is admirable. The problem is that you need to give a manager with outstanding judgement the final say on whether he thinks he can get those young players playing well, and then also a manager of outstanding skill to actually get them out onto the pitch doing it. Arsenal have both those men in Arsene Wenger. We do not. Nor did we in Kevin Keegan if some (including Mike Ashley and his staff) are to be believed. Which begs the question, why bring him back? That's not one I expect you to answer either btw, seeing as you've already said it was a mistake. The fact is that pretty much all successful models rely on the man who organises and coaches the team having the authority to determine his own pool of playing staff. Keegan was brought back for sentimental reasons which in hindsight was a mistake, I think the comment that only him and Shearer would be given time holds some weight which is another problem again, I still think the club were prepared to give Keegan a major say on transfers as long as they fitted in with the clubs strategy (players under 25-26) but something happened to make the club step in over his head at the end of the window, I've no idea what that was but it's understandable that people side with Keegan because of his stature amongst the fans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 We were never going to be able to recruit the volume of players we needed in one transfer window. Firstly, that is a lot of signings, and secondly, it requires getting some of the wasters off the wage bill. The important thing was we were getting players in of the right quality, and moving in the right direction. The impatience of some people is staggering. What have they been doing since christmas then? Think I said, getting in players of the right quality. I don't know what the average number of signings for a club is in the time we've had, but what would you have been happy with? A whole new first team? A new squad? Rebuilding takes time, we need to forget we used to be title challengers and live in the real world. That means a mid-table club with big potential, if handled right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 I didn't say it was a radical idea did I? The fact is this club over the last few years have forked out big money on wages for average older players that we can't shift as well as ignoring the academy, the club now want to go in the other direction and bring quality young players in that have their best years in front of them, they're also likely to be on smaller wages. At the same time they're looking to boost the academy (which will take time) so we can have better players coming through. No surprise to see people over scrutinise a comment on here though. It was a rhetorical question. The intention is admirable. The problem is that you need to give a manager with outstanding judgement the final say on whether he thinks he can get those young players playing well, and then also a manager of outstanding skill to actually get them out onto the pitch doing it. Arsenal have both those men in Arsene Wenger. We do not. Nor did we in Kevin Keegan if some (including Mike Ashley and his staff) are to be believed. Which begs the question, why bring him back? That's not one I expect you to answer either btw, seeing as you've already said it was a mistake. The fact is that pretty much all successful models rely on the man who organises and coaches the team having the authority to determine his own pool of playing staff. Keegan was brought back for sentimental reasons which in hindsight was a mistake, I think the comment that only him and Shearer would be given time holds some weight which is another problem again, I still think the club were prepared to give Keegan a major say on transfers as long as they fitted in with the clubs strategy (players under 25-26) but something happened to make the club step in over his head at the end of the window, I've no idea what that was but it's understandable that people side with Keegan because of his stature amongst the fans. No idea what was promised or implied to Keegan, but the general view when Ashley arrived was that there was going to be big plans and big money to spend on players. If the budget was always intended to be pretty tight, then bringing Keegan back was a bizarre decision given his previous reputation as a chequebook manager. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 No idea what was promised or implied to Keegan, but the general view when Ashley arrived was that there was going to be big plans and big money to spend on players. If the budget was always intended to be pretty tight, then bringing Keegan back was a bizarre decision given his previous reputation as a chequebook manager. I agree the decision to bring him back now seems sentimental and wrong in the circumstances. But wasn't it us (the fans) that just assumed we would be spending big because Ashley was a billionairre? Did he ever actually promise anything like that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 I simply cannot believe Keegan would come back if he didn't agree to the budget. If he knew it was going to be tight then he's got no right to expect more. Then again if the budget is going to be tight then it gives even more importance to the manager having final say... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Slippery Sam Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Some Arsenal model mind. Especially when their own manager disagrees with the way it has come about. The Arsenal comment was clearly about bring through and buying youngsters as a model for the future, nothing to do with who goes out and gets them. Arsenal wouldn't have a model if someone was doing business above Wenger's head. But we haven't got a manager anywhere near the standard of Wenger so your point in irrelevant. I don't see what the class of Wenger has to do with it, I'm saying they wouldn't have a model at all if wasn't for a manager who works within it. As he says, that doesn't involve people signing players above his head. In fact you're defeating your own argument; why try emulate Arsenal when the mastermind of their model is vastly superior to what we have (your words)? How is it even possible? Because we go about it in another way, we don't have a manager that's good enough to emulate Wenger so you brake the roles up within the club, we just need to bring in a manager that will work within our system and we can move on, Keegan clearly wasn't that manager which is the biggest mistake the club has made. Keegan could well have worked within such a system of bringing in the young players etc. However, Keegan, quite rightly, wanted the first team situation addressed immediately as we were in no position to pussyfoot around with potentially good players. After all, it was his head on the block, not the others who seemed to be calling the shots. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 I simply cannot believe Keegan would come back if he didn't agree to the budget. If he knew it was going to be tight then he's got no right to expect more. Then again if the budget is going to be tight then it gives even more importance to the manager having final say... I can't work it out either way, that's why I can't be slagging off Ashley and Wise. It's a riddle wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a scotch egg casing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Well done to those two and they are completely right. they are indeed and its a crying shame that they are labelled as hoying their toys out of the pram and other such bollocks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Some Arsenal model mind. Especially when their own manager disagrees with the way it has come about. The Arsenal comment was clearly about bring through and buying youngsters as a model for the future, nothing to do with who goes out and gets them. Arsenal wouldn't have a model if someone was doing business above Wenger's head. But we haven't got a manager anywhere near the standard of Wenger so your point in irrelevant. I don't see what the class of Wenger has to do with it, I'm saying they wouldn't have a model at all if wasn't for a manager who works within it. As he says, that doesn't involve people signing players above his head. In fact you're defeating your own argument; why try emulate Arsenal when the mastermind of their model is vastly superior to what we have (your words)? How is it even possible? the name, quality of anything else of the manager has absolutely nothing to do with this, your quite right. Expect baggy to defend his DOF rubbish for all its worth, even though he was told ages ago what would happen when it came across any manager worth his salt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Do you mind? The grown-ups are having a conversation here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Some Arsenal model mind. Especially when their own manager disagrees with the way it has come about. The Arsenal comment was clearly about bring through and buying youngsters as a model for the future, nothing to do with who goes out and gets them. Arsenal wouldn't have a model if someone was doing business above Wenger's head. But we haven't got a manager anywhere near the standard of Wenger so your point in irrelevant. I don't see what the class of Wenger has to do with it, I'm saying they wouldn't have a model at all if wasn't for a manager who works within it. As he says, that doesn't involve people signing players above his head. In fact you're defeating your own argument; why try emulate Arsenal when the mastermind of their model is vastly superior to what we have (your words)? How is it even possible? Because we go about it in another way, we don't have a manager that's good enough to emulate Wenger so you brake the roles up within the club, we just need to bring in a manager that will work within our system and we can move on, Keegan clearly wasn't that manager which is the biggest mistake the club has made. So Dennis Wise = unsackable and permanent "manager", letting someone else carry the can for disappointments. What a load of crap. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 We were never going to be able to recruit the volume of players we needed in one transfer window. Firstly, that is a lot of signings, and secondly, it requires getting some of the wasters off the wage bill. The important thing was we were getting players in of the right quality, and moving in the right direction. The impatience of some people is staggering. haha. go and look up when we last won something son. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Do you mind? The grown-ups are having a conversation here. I dread to think what some of you must have known about the club when you were younger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 We were never going to be able to recruit the volume of players we needed in one transfer window. Firstly, that is a lot of signings, and secondly, it requires getting some of the wasters off the wage bill. The important thing was we were getting players in of the right quality, and moving in the right direction. The impatience of some people is staggering. haha. go and look up when we last won something son. Is that not half the problem though? I mean, the fact that we have been rubbish for ages doesn't mean we should suddenly expect to be great. Just the opposite, it means we should be prepared for a steady period of rebuilding and progress, from the situation we find outselves in now. But somehow we aren't, the longer we go without winning something the worse it gets, particularly now when a large proportion of our fans only remember us being top 6 material. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob X Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 We were never going to be able to recruit the volume of players we needed in one transfer window. Firstly, that is a lot of signings, and secondly, it requires getting some of the wasters off the wage bill. The important thing was we were getting players in of the right quality, and moving in the right direction. The impatience of some people is staggering. haha. go and look up when we last won something son. Is that not half the problem though? I mean, the fact that we have been rubbish for ages doesn't mean we should suddenly expect to be great. Just the opposite, it means we should be prepared for a steady period of rebuilding and progress, from the situation we find outselves in now. But somehow we aren't, the longer we go without winning something the worse it gets, particularly now when a large proportion of our fans only remember us being top 6 material. People like you but there are plenty of us who go back a lot longer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 No idea what was promised or implied to Keegan, but the general view when Ashley arrived was that there was going to be big plans and big money to spend on players. If the budget was always intended to be pretty tight, then bringing Keegan back was a bizarre decision given his previous reputation as a chequebook manager. I agree the decision to bring him back now seems sentimental and wrong in the circumstances. But wasn't it us (the fans) that just assumed we would be spending big because Ashley was a billionairre? Did he ever actually promise anything like that? There was talk of a £100m transfer war chest bandied about to begin with, this was later revised down to £50m, now we are down to £12m. In Keegan's first interview, he was talking about why shouldn't we be allowed to dream of winning something. He was definitely thinking big, and my impression has been that he was allowed to think that way to begin with at least. I don't think it turned out like in the brochure, and my gut instinct is that KK was misled, and that's irrespective of whether the system is right or not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob X Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Maybe I didn't read the small print either but it hasn't turned out as I thought it would that's for sure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 We were never going to be able to recruit the volume of players we needed in one transfer window. Firstly, that is a lot of signings, and secondly, it requires getting some of the wasters off the wage bill. The important thing was we were getting players in of the right quality, and moving in the right direction. The impatience of some people is staggering. haha. go and look up when we last won something son. Is that not half the problem though? I mean, the fact that we have been rubbish for ages doesn't mean we should suddenly expect to be great. Just the opposite, it means we should be prepared for a steady period of rebuilding and progress, from the situation we find outselves in now. But somehow we aren't, the longer we go without winning something the worse it gets, particularly now when a large proportion of our fans only remember us being top 6 material. People like you but there are plenty of us who go back a lot longer. I know there are, what's your point? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob X Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 That I'm tired of hearing about johnny come latelys harping on about patience. Again and again and..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 That I'm tired of hearing about johnny come latelys harping on about patience. Again and again and..... Sorry, I could only support Newcastle since I was born, can't do any better than that I'm afraid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 That I'm tired of hearing about johnny come latelys harping on about patience. Again and again and..... Sorry, I could only support Newcastle since I was born, can't do any better than that I'm afraid. I'll try to rephrase it differently. Why should one of the biggest clubs in the country EVER be "patient". Shouldn't we ALWAYS be expecting to challenge and show the ambition to challenge on that very basis ? Don't you think that we understand that this "planning" and "patience" is absolutely no guarantee of anything ? Do you understand that lots of other clubs are attempting to preach "patience" that might get in the way of our own hopes too ? In football........things change quickly, often and unexpectedly all the time....today and the immediate future, is ALL that matters. Get the supporters in, and if you are a big club, keep them in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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