Fans to blame? F*ck off!

[Guest The Libertine]

Keegan spent about 18m net - Dalglish was the big spender with something like 38m

 

When we were spending 6m on Ferdinand, Arsenal were spending 8m on Bergkamp - its a myth that we were huge spenders.

 

 

 

 

http://www.nufc.com/2008-09html/transfers-keegan.html

 

do the maths.

[Robster]

 

Appointing Dennis Wise ??

 

Part of the system which i value more than Keegan at this point and time - im depserate to see this policy come to fruitiion or at least definitely fail like the old policy. The playing staff so far would suggest that mabye it might work over the course of a few years, i can certainly wait.

 

The position in itself - I havent got an issue with but i think he made a mistake in actually employing Dennis Wise. He shoudl maybe have looked into the back ground history and thought about how it might havebeen viewed by fans.

+ allowing to work from London doesnt appear to have been the best decision either.

Again, I think I would like to see the structure work too but he appears to have made some fundamental errors in setting it up

[Cajun]

If we added 2 players every window of the similar quality to Jonas and Coloccini with a few youngsters for the future then we probably would.

[NJS]

If we added 2 players every window of the similar quality to Jonas and Coloccini with a few youngsters for the future then we probably would.

 

But they've shown no sign of squad building - as I said signing Collocini and selling Faye negates the gain to an arguable degree which could be applied to Jonas/Milner - another two Xiscos to replace Owen, Martins and Viduka will leave us with a weaker squad.

 

 

 

[fredbob]

I persoanlly value the system over the individual manager due to the situation we found ourselves in with the old system.

 

The old system wasn't the problem it was the poor choice of managers.

 

Woo takes responsibility for failure in your wonderful system?

 

Its not been a failure - yet. Not after 6 months.

 

Ashley HAS to take the blame at the end of the day, i accept that but i dont think the fans hounding him out is anyway near acceptabe, hence to blame for the mess we're in. (The crux of this Thread).

 

I still think that Keegan put Ahlsey in a difficult spot though....

 

Has the squad improved to the extent where you think that 4 years down the line with similar windows we would be challenging for Europe?

 

"similar windows" is a bit of a red herring that - assuming the next 8 windows would be exactly the same with the club rowing in oppositie directions?

 

To answer your question anyway,Honesty - yes i do.

 

Jonas - excellent

Colo- good

Guthrie - good

Bassong - good

Nacho - dont know

Xisco - dont know

at least 4 quality signings out of 6 at least with a club that wasnt completely rowing in the same direction - not to mention the deadwood that was removed.

 

My major conern was the lack of quanitity which i was ready to lambast before this al blew up. Who's to say it will be the same for the next 8 windows.

[fredbob]

 

Appointing Dennis Wise ??

 

Part of the system which i value more than Keegan at this point and time - im depserate to see this policy come to fruitiion or at least definitely fail like the old policy. The playing staff so far would suggest that mabye it might work over the course of a few years, i can certainly wait.

 

The position in itself - I havent got an issue with but i think he made a mistake in actually employing Dennis Wise. He shoudl maybe have looked into the back ground history and thought about how it might havebeen viewed by fans.

+ allowing to work from London doesnt appear to have been the best decision either.

Again, I think I would like to see the structure work too but he appears to have made some fundamental errors in setting it up

 

Id agree with that - excapt for one thing - keegan said he gave his blessing for Wise to come up - surely he;d of known about Wise history with the club....said something like out of the candidates available Wise was the best choice....

 

 

[NJS]

I persoanlly value the system over the individual manager due to the situation we found ourselves in with the old system.

 

The old system wasn't the problem it was the poor choice of managers.

 

Woo takes responsibility for failure in your wonderful system?

 

Its not been a failure - yet. Not after 6 months.

 

Ashley HAS to take the blame at the end of the day, i accept that but i dont think the fans hounding him out is anyway near acceptabe, hence to blame for the mess we're in. (The crux of this Thread).

 

I still think that Keegan put Ahlsey in a difficult spot though....

 

Has the squad improved to the extent where you think that 4 years down the line with similar windows we would be challenging for Europe?

 

"similar windows" is a bit of a red herring that - assuming the next 8 windows would be exactly the same with the club rowing in oppositie directions?

 

To answer your question anyway,Honesty - yes i do.

 

Jonas - excellent

Colo- good

Guthrie - good

Bassong - good

Nacho - dont know

Xisco - dont know

at least 4 quality signings out of 6 at least with a club that wasnt completely rowing in the same direction - not to mention the deadwood that was removed.

 

My major conern was the lack of quanitity which i was ready to lambast before this al blew up. Who's to say it will be the same for the next 8 windows.

 

You can't judge players on 5 games or less - this time last year people were quite pleased with Rozenhal and Cacapa and Jonas could still be a Cordone.

 

Guthrie should only be a squad player which we need more of but if he plays more than 30 games a season for the next 3 years we will get nowhere near Europe.

 

 

[Mowen]

If you're not allowed to declare a player good after 5 games, then why are you allowed to declare one not good enough?

[NJS]

If you're not allowed to declare a player good after 5 games, then why are you allowed to declare one not good enough?

 

Because a player can start well and fade like Cordone did but with some its an instant judgement. I don't think any of the new signings are bad as such, I just don't think they are as good as people hope and I want better.

[Mowen]

If you're not allowed to declare a player good after 5 games, then why are you allowed to declare one not good enough?

 

Because a player can start well and fade like Cordone did but with some its an instant judgement. I don't think any of the new signings are bad as such, I just don't think they are as good as people hope and I want better.

 

Why are you allowed to judge them after 5 games but you lambast others for doing so?

[NJS]

If you're not allowed to declare a player good after 5 games, then why are you allowed to declare one not good enough?

 

Because a player can start well and fade like Cordone did but with some its an instant judgement. I don't think any of the new signings are bad as such, I just don't think they are as good as people hope and I want better.

 

Why are you allowed to judge them after 5 games but you lambast others for doing so?

 

I'm just giving my opinion as we all do - people seem desperate to me to justify this system based on the fact that the signings are good. As I said I don't think are bad and I'll be happy if they all turn out to be world beaters but overall I don't share the "happiness" with the window that others have. In terms of numbers, areas and overall quality I don't think we've done enough to improve on last year by any great degree.

 

 

[Mowen]

If you're not allowed to declare a player good after 5 games, then why are you allowed to declare one not good enough?

 

Because a player can start well and fade like Cordone did but with some its an instant judgement. I don't think any of the new signings are bad as such, I just don't think they are as good as people hope and I want better.

 

Why are you allowed to judge them after 5 games but you lambast others for doing so?

 

I'm just giving my opinion as we all do - people seem desperate to me to justify this system based on the fact that the signings are good. As I said I don't think are bad and I'll be happy if they all turn out to be world beaters but overall I don't share the "happiness" with the window that others have. In terms of numbers, areas and overall quality I don't think we've done enough to improve on last year by any great degree.

 

 

 

"You can't judge players on 5 games or less"

 

"Guthrie should only be a squad player which we need more of but if he plays more than 30 games a season for the next 3 years we will get nowhere near Europe."

 

Double Standards?

[Teasy]

Keegan spent about 18m net - Dalglish was the big spender with something like 38m

 

When we were spending 6m on Ferdinand, Arsenal were spending 8m on Bergkamp - its a myth that we were huge spenders.

 

 

 

 

http://www.nufc.com/2008-09html/transfers-keegan.html

 

do the maths.

 

So Keegan spent an average of just over £6 million per season net in his time at Newcastle, what did the likes of Manure, Arsenal, Blackburn ect spend at the time?, similar amounts no doubt.  Sorry but while we certainly spent big for the time it was nowhere near Chelsea style spending.

[NJS]

If you're not allowed to declare a player good after 5 games, then why are you allowed to declare one not good enough?

 

Because a player can start well and fade like Cordone did but with some its an instant judgement. I don't think any of the new signings are bad as such, I just don't think they are as good as people hope and I want better.

 

Why are you allowed to judge them after 5 games but you lambast others for doing so?

 

I'm just giving my opinion as we all do - people seem desperate to me to justify this system based on the fact that the signings are good. As I said I don't think are bad and I'll be happy if they all turn out to be world beaters but overall I don't share the "happiness" with the window that others have. In terms of numbers, areas and overall quality I don't think we've done enough to improve on last year by any great degree.

 

 

 

"You can't judge players on 5 games or less"

 

"Guthrie should only be a squad player which we need more of but if he plays more than 30 games a season for the next 3 years we will get nowhere near Europe."

 

Double Standards?

 

Possibly - I think it works differently if you are judging a player as good or as bad though - with good players its a question of keeping it going whereas with "bad" players its a question of not seeing anything there to build on - I just think Guthrie is okay but won't be anything special.

[NJS]

Keegan spent about 18m net - Dalglish was the big spender with something like 38m

 

When we were spending 6m on Ferdinand, Arsenal were spending 8m on Bergkamp - its a myth that we were huge spenders.

 

 

 

 

http://www.nufc.com/2008-09html/transfers-keegan.html

 

do the maths.

 

So Keegan spent an average of just over £6 million per season net in his time at Newcastle, what did the likes of Manure, Arsenal, Blackburn ect spend at the time?, similar amounts no doubt.  Sorry but while we certainly spent big for the time it was nowhere near Chelsea style spending.

 

It was also playing catch up going from the second division to title challengers whereas Chelsea had to go from 3rd/4th to 1st.

 

 

[Teasy]

You can't judge players on 5 games or less - this time last year people were quite pleased with Rozenhal and Cacapa and Jonas could still be a Cordone.

 

Guthrie should only be a squad player which we need more of but if he plays more than 30 games a season for the next 3 years we will get nowhere near Europe.

 

 

 

How can you compare Cordone to Gutierrez?

[NJS]

You can't judge players on 5 games or less - this time last year people were quite pleased with Rozenhal and Cacapa and Jonas could still be a Cordone.

 

Guthrie should only be a squad player which we need more of but if he plays more than 30 games a season for the next 3 years we will get nowhere near Europe.

 

 

 

How can you compare Cordone to Gutierrez?

 

Guttierez for all his fantastic workrate created the one chance at Arsenal in his first 3 games - Cordone scored on one of his - pretty similar.

 

Being a hypocrite it took me seeing Ginola for 5 minutes to know he was something wonderful.

 

 

[ChezGiven]

Who the fuck is blaming the fans?

 

I know of people who blame Ashley, Wise, Lllambias and Keegan, individually or collectively. I know of no one who blames the fans. What a retarded fucking twat end notion. Shut up Chris.

 

[merlin]

Those blaming fans for the mess we are in can f*** right off, seriously. We were in this mess the moment the club failed to broker peace with KK and allowed him to walk and there isn't a course of action we could have chosen to change that inevitable crash, positively or otherwise. Protests or no protests the end result was always going to be the same. Fan unrest, media intrusion and dressing room damage - in short a broken club. Only Ashley's true intentions for the club would still be hidden away like the faces he appointed have cowardly been these past few weeks and the man himself was until some 'mongs' chanted "Ashley Out". The protesters haven't created this mess nor made it any worse. In fact they have done their club a huge favour by finishing what KK had started - further exposing the lies, deceit, cheating and true intentions of Ashley which couldn't be any further from the so-called blueprint he outlined in his recent official club magazine interview which had the vast majority of us fooled.

 

Those blaming fans it hasn't went unnoticed have mainly had the luxury of being cut-off from all of this but those 'mongs' and protesters you claim to have caused this or made things worse cannot escape the turmoil much less try and reason with it.

 

In an age where football is being criticised for failing to understand fans it galls me that some fans themselves are losing touch with reality too. The reality that in a City like Newcastle where there is only one club, a club that literally dominates the landscape, a City where long suffering fans who have put up with lies after lies, false dawn after false dawn, had their loyalty and pride taken for granted time and time again wake up one morning to the news that their manager who to many has given them the best years of their lives supporting their club, has been sacked or resigned without so much as a word from the owner, chairmen or someone for a full day, what do people f***ing expect. For fans to sit by SSN to await developments?

 

And when confirmation that KK has resigned due to interference from above before a petty, blatantly full of lies amateur statement finally arrives quickly followed by a smear campaign to discredit one of the biggest legend's in the club's history and one of the most honest men in football while the owner gets pissed thousands of miles away?

 

How are fans meant to react? What are they meant to feel? What are they meant to do?

 

Distance themselves from this like some of you lot who have the luxury of being able to?

 

How about good old reason and logic? Err this is f***ing football, if it is reason and logic you want, wrong game folks, wrong f***ing club.

 

I love Kevin Keegan me, the man went up in my estimation even further when he resigned. I won't apologise for that.

 

I won't apologise for my feelings on Ashley and co neither.

 

But most of all I won't apologise for fans doing what is natural, caring and being emotive about their one and only club.

 

Shame on you for mocking this, for not understanding this.

 

And lastly, I make no apologies when I say those that blame fans for all of this can f*** right off, you're not welcome and can follow Ashley and co out the door for all I care.

 

That's my finish on the whole sorry saga.

 

I won't comment any more.

Blaming fans for the club's situation is like blaming passengers on an aircraft because it crashes due to bad maintenance of pilot-error...!

[mrmojorisin75]

Those blaming fans for the mess we are in can f*** right off, seriously. We were in this mess the moment the club failed to broker peace with KK and allowed him to walk and there isn't a course of action we could have chosen to change that inevitable crash, positively or otherwise. Protests or no protests the end result was always going to be the same. Fan unrest, media intrusion and dressing room damage - in short a broken club. Only Ashley's true intentions for the club would still be hidden away like the faces he appointed have cowardly been these past few weeks and the man himself was until some 'mongs' chanted "Ashley Out". The protesters haven't created this mess nor made it any worse. In fact they have done their club a huge favour by finishing what KK had started - further exposing the lies, deceit, cheating and true intentions of Ashley which couldn't be any further from the so-called blueprint he outlined in his recent official club magazine interview which had the vast majority of us fooled.

 

Those blaming fans it hasn't went unnoticed have mainly had the luxury of being cut-off from all of this but those 'mongs' and protesters you claim to have caused this or made things worse cannot escape the turmoil much less try and reason with it.

 

In an age where football is being criticised for failing to understand fans it galls me that some fans themselves are losing touch with reality too. The reality that in a City like Newcastle where there is only one club, a club that literally dominates the landscape, a City where long suffering fans who have put up with lies after lies, false dawn after false dawn, had their loyalty and pride taken for granted time and time again wake up one morning to the news that their manager who to many has given them the best years of their lives supporting their club, has been sacked or resigned without so much as a word from the owner, chairmen or someone for a full day, what do people f***ing expect. For fans to sit by SSN to await developments?

 

And when confirmation that KK has resigned due to interference from above before a petty, blatantly full of lies amateur statement finally arrives quickly followed by a smear campaign to discredit one of the biggest legend's in the club's history and one of the most honest men in football while the owner gets pissed thousands of miles away?

 

How are fans meant to react? What are they meant to feel? What are they meant to do?

 

Distance themselves from this like some of you lot who have the luxury of being able to?

 

How about good old reason and logic? Err this is f***ing football, if it is reason and logic you want, wrong game folks, wrong f***ing club.

 

I love Kevin Keegan me, the man went up in my estimation even further when he resigned. I won't apologise for that.

 

I won't apologise for my feelings on Ashley and co neither.

 

But most of all I won't apologise for fans doing what is natural, caring and being emotive about their one and only club.

 

Shame on you for mocking this, for not understanding this.

 

And lastly, I make no apologies when I say those that blame fans for all of this can f*** right off, you're not welcome and can follow Ashley and co out the door for all I care.

 

That's my finish on the whole sorry saga.

 

I won't comment any more.

Blaming fans for the club's situation is like blaming passengers on an aircraft because it crashes due to bad maintenance of pilot-error...!

 

no it isn't, it's more like blaming the passengers because once they heard the maintenance department had fucked something up pre-flight, something repairable, the passengers picketed the maintenance department demanding someone else fix the plane before it takes off again - the maintenance department are understandably unhappy with this situation and thus allow the plane to rot in the hangar until someone buys out their contract for an inflated fee

 

the fans never got us to the point where KK was sacked, but they had an influence in getting rid of shepherd with the demonstrations...we got ashley, one thing led to another then the fans kicked off at the drop of a hat, asked the guy to leave but like the fella out of pirates of the caribbean when he agrees to release the tart then makes her walk the plank into the sea perhaps the mag & true faith should have set out their terms to nasty mike before it all started with a letter outlining what they wanted clearly:

 

"dear mike, we the peoples voice are about to embark on a series of demonstrations against you personally & financially wherever we can affect your businesses.  our intention is to get you to sell NUFC as we don't like cockneys up here.  however we feel it necessary to point out the following demands; you need to sell very quickly and not try to make a profit because you love football, freddy shepherd hung on for years until he made a massive profit but he was a geordie so it's OK you see?  if you can't sell quickly then maybe we'll think about you staying as long as you sack all of the people you appointed that we don't like & bring KK back.  also if you can't sell quickly we think you should identify a good manager and bring him in to steady the team, although we recognise it might be impossible given the fact people probably think we're all foreign-hating caveman xenophobes.

 

yours sincerely,

 

the angry mob"

 

best intentions but this situation will not be resolved quickly and therefore we will be stuck with hughton  "managing" the team - THAT is a direct result of the protests, nothing more nothing less imo

[Baggio]

If the fans aren't partly to blame, then why is there a big difference between what is happening with us and what has happened with West Ham? They had a manager walk out under the exact same circumstances, yet they're not in utter limbo as a result of it.

 

IMO the difference is because of the fans' emotional attachment to Kevin Keegan and the supposed lack of backing, combined with this resentment of the club being run by people perceived to be "cockneys", creating a situation whereby the chairman/owner have no interest in appointing a new manager, with very few managers willing to take the job knowing that they'd possibly have a new boss who doesn't want them the next day. Hence, we have someone completely incompetent and unqualified at the helm, someone who has been unfairly thrown into the role but will ultimately result in us going down if he stays there for long enough - anyone can point to how bad we've been since Keegan's departure and blame "the system" for not getting enough quality players in, but they'd do well to remember just how much of a difference a good manager can make on an apparently poor team struggling under a clueless "manager".

 

The owner purchased the club, according to his own words, as a means to enjoy himself, a vessel to live out his love of football - as soon as the fans turned on him to the extent that they have, he was always going to lose the very motivation that saw him purchase the club hastily in the first place. Contrast that to West Ham fans, who have shown none of the vitriol or sheer anger towards a board who have done the same thing as plenty of other boards up and down the country, past and present. Even Shepherd signed players that weren't his managers' targets, as Souness has clearly stated, yet where were the mass demonstrations, and well respected fanzines protesting against the actions of the board and encouraging a revolt? Is it because we disliked Souness as a manager, forgave Shepherd becasue he wasnt a cockney, and in fact had no clue about what happened at the time because the manager didnt walk out in a huff?

 

To quote Ashley:

 

"I have enjoyed sport since I was a boy. I love football. I have followed England in every tournament since Mexico '86. I was there to see Maradona and his hand of God. I know what it means to love football and to love a club. I know how important it is to other people because football is so important to me.

 

My life has been tied up with sport. It was the passion that I felt for sport that helped me to be successful with my business. That success allowed me to mix my passion and my business.

 

I bought Newcastle United in May 2007. Newcastle attracted me because everyone in England knows that it has the best fans in football. When the fans are behind the club at St James' Park it makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. It is magic. Newcastle's best asset has been, is and always will be the fans.

 

....

 

I am not stupid and have listened to the fans. I have really loved taking my kids to the games, being next to them and all the fans. But I am now a dad who can't take his kids to a football game on a Saturday because I am advised that we would be assaulted. Therefore, I am no longer prepared to subsidise Newcastle United.

 

I am putting the club up for sale."

 

So, aside from the conspiracy theory, how is that not because of the fans?

 

Excellent post, I read on before coming back to quote this to see if anyone could put up a decent argument, I was not surprised they couldn't.

 

 

[Cajun]

If you're not allowed to declare a player good after 5 games, then why are you allowed to declare one not good enough?

 

Because a player can start well and fade like Cordone did but with some its an instant judgement. I don't think any of the new signings are bad as such, I just don't think they are as good as people hope and I want better.

 

Why are you allowed to judge them after 5 games but you lambast others for doing so?

 

I'm just giving my opinion as we all do - people seem desperate to me to justify this system based on the fact that the signings are good. As I said I don't think are bad and I'll be happy if they all turn out to be world beaters but overall I don't share the "happiness" with the window that others have. In terms of numbers, areas and overall quality I don't think we've done enough to improve on last year by any great degree.

 

 

 

"You can't judge players on 5 games or less"

 

"Guthrie should only be a squad player which we need more of but if he plays more than 30 games a season for the next 3 years we will get nowhere near Europe."

 

Double Standards?

 

Possibly - I think it works differently if you are judging a player as good or as bad though - with good players its a question of keeping it going whereas with "bad" players its a question of not seeing anything there to build on - I just think Guthrie is okay but won't be anything special. It helps my argument if I can say they might be bad but it doesn't help if you can see they might be good.

 

FYP

[Robster]

 

Excellent post, I read on before coming back to quote this to see if anyone could put up a decent argument, I was not surprised they couldn't.

 

 

 

So in comparing us to West Ham, how do you view the comparitive performances of the 2 clubs in appointing a new manager - taking into account the time before the fans demonstrated at the Hull game ?

[Guest BooBoo]

I thought using swear words in a thread title was a big no no?

[TRon]

What Ashley discovered, belatedly, is that too much about Newcastle is concerned with an excessive clamour for swift success and excessive emotional investment in the club. A woman interviewed on Match of the Day suggested her life had been ruined by recent events at St James' Park. The TV pundit Mark Lawrenson's gentle reproach that she was somewhat overstating things, resulted, by Monday, with opprobrium being heaped upon him. Over-expectancy inevitably leads to panic moves, a heavy turnover of managers – seven in the 11 years since Keegan was last at St James' Park – and purchasesof too many modest players.

 

So why would any buyer look at Newcastle now? HBOS found a saviour in Lloyds TSB. No-boss Newcastle are not so fortunate. It is a buyers' market. There is a fond belief that sugar sheikhs are queuing up to ride in from the desert to get their hands on the Premier League brand. Even if that were true, Liverpool would be the more treasured prize. Newcastle's plight is not helped by the stance of their more vocal followers. Individually they may, indeed, be among the game's most passionate fans. As a mob, they hardly contribute to the best marketing package. Neither does Ashley's response to them that he was "now a dad who can't take his kids to a football game". Almost certainly he overstates his concerns, but it is scarcely the most attractive selling point.

 

In the end, Ashley's so-called surrender may turn out to be a pyrrhic victory for Newcastle's followers, who should have taken a lesson from the Old West of Randy Lerner's homeland. You don't find too many volunteers to become the new sheriff when the previous incumbent has just been run out of town.

 

From today's Independent. It'll probably be dismissed as the views of an outsider, but the fact is, any buyer of the club is more than likely going to be an outsider. We really need Geordie businessmen to stand up and be counted.