People who think we have quality in the squad.

[fredbob]

If we're looking at any comparison made between SBR team and the current team, shouldnt it be this squad and SBR's squad in his second season?

 

Wouldnt that be an infinitely fairer comparison? The only questionable variable between the comparisons would the the strength of the squad at the point of rebuiliding.

 

 

 

[Guest firetotheworks]

I havent read the whole thread but I think if we fix midfield, then we fix the team. I agree with most of the OP, but I think we have a much better defence now than we did then. No where near having as good a midfield, and a strike force on paper that should be as good, but isn't.

 

Lets say for arguments sake that we'd bought Carrick when we bought Butt. The difference that would have made to the team as a whole would have been incredible.

[Guest battyleespeed]

What an excellent topic...

 

There aren't any real leaders left in the squad.

 

Team players with exceptional leadership abilities over the last years:

 

Shearer

Speed

Lee

Batty

 

All of the above had also exceptional athletism and physique which helped them to lead by example. All were also domestic players that seemed to get well together and appeared consistently instead of sulking at the sickbay. In last ten years or so I can't think of any foreign player who would had been considered to be one of the true leaders in the squad (Albert might just pass).

 

I guess the team has always had negative influences and weak willed players but to counter that there was a core group of strong willed pros like Shearer, Speed, Lee and Given. There aren't that type of players in the team anymore. Owen and Given both want out and have taken the individualistic attitude - neither are real leaders anyway.

 

Spending 5-10m to a one British player molded from the classic leadership type with exceptional physical abilities would do well to instill some spine into to this team.

 

[Tooj]

Robert had much better end product but Jonas is much  better team player so it's a case of swings and roundabouts there. The problem for me is that we don't have real quality in midfield. The back four is passable when the first choice defenders are fit, but there is no cover.

 

The midfield even when everyone is fit lacks goals. This is why I don't rate Guthrie as a "quality" player. In his position most successful teams have a midfielder who attacks the box and contributes goals. Butt was pensioned off a deacde ago at Man U, it's a disgrace he is starting virtually every game for us. Duff is a shell of a player doomed to relegate whoever he plays for. Barton is the only decent central midfielder we have on our books and he's slow.

 

You can't run a high powered car on a clapped out motor and that's what we've got in our engine room.

 

 

I do agree with AS9's Robert comment tho, though probably a better comparison would be with Dyer in terms of what Jonas brings to the side. in that sense we're still to replace Robert's end product rather than his position.

 

That is a good comparison actually, Jonas is like a slower version of Dyer who isn't a cunt and doesn't get injured, also works harder defensively. Whilst Jonas looks destructive when running, he flatters to deceive imo. Take his late run in the box vs WH; can you see Robert not converting in that position? He would have cracked it like a bullet.

 

Jonas has the work ethic which people seem to desire so much, but you cannot replace technical ability. He will never score a goal like the many Robert smashed in.

 

What I'm trying to say is technically, who do we have in the squad who competes with the likes of Robert/Solano? Nobody.

 

well said.

 

So overall you're saying this team isnt as good as the team that got us into the CL? Do you not think that how we play as a team directly affectshow many oppurtunities we create. With a more expansive gane (one we wont expect to see from Kinnear) I think Zog and Jonas could get a hell of a lot more assits than they are now. Id also suggest, again, that Shearer is the key to all this as well.

 

Like ive said before, its not the quality of the ingredients that is the most important thing, its the skill of the chef.

 

 

I definitely think Jonas needs more movement around him for him to shine, if we had this then he'd look a much better player. Although I think the criticism he receives is harsh, much like I feel the people who laud him also go over the top.

 

I think obviously Jonas and Zog would get more assists with more movement around them, although they wouldn't get anywhere near the same as Robert or Solano simply due to the fact they're both not in the same class as the two mentioned when it comes to their final ball. (Aware about Robert's rather erratic crosses and set pieces at times as well before someone comments)

[Disco]

Jonas has way more expectation on him to do stuff than Solano/Robert ever did as Martins/N'Zogbia aside he is the only one who can not like when we had half the team that could produce something out of nothing thus making Jonas a lot easier to snuff out. It is no suprise some of his best games have been when we have had a full strength team out as the opposition can't single him out

[merlin]

Jonas has way more expectation on him to do stuff than Solano/Robert ever did as Martins/N'Zogbia aside he is the only one who can not like when we had half the team that could produce something out of nothing thus making Jonas a lot easier to snuff out. It is no suprise some of his best games have been when we have had a full strength team out as the opposition can't single him out

 

True, but only to a point - Robert & Solano were vastly better midfielders in that their contributions to the side were much more effective ; Nobby's passing & crossing was very accurate and intuitive - he saw things on a wider plane than Jonas does ; Robert had a MUCH better goals average and could hit a ball with terrific force..something we have not seen Jonas do yet...

There is some truth in the argument that these guys were playing with better players, but I still think they were better as individuals too.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I havent read the whole thread but I think if we fix midfield, then we fix the team. I agree with most of the OP, but I think we have a much better defence now than we did then. No where near having as good a midfield, and a strike force on paper that should be as good, but isn't.

 

Lets say for arguments sake that we'd bought Carrick when we bought Butt. The difference that would have made to the team as a whole would have been incredible.

 

Absolutely, we need to be getting some real premiership players into the middle of the park, that will make all the difference.

[Gallowgate End]

Robert & Solano were vastly better midfielders in that their contributions to the side were much more effective ; Nobby's passing & crossing was very accurate and intuitive - he saw things on a wider plane than Jonas does ; Robert had a MUCH better goals average and could hit a ball with terrific force..something we have not seen Jonas do yet...

There is some truth in the argument that these guys were playing with better players, but I still think they were better as individuals too.

 

Agree. 

 

I always get quite surprised at the rave reviews Gutierrez gets for me he hasn't a clue how to deliver a ball from wide nor does he look to get his body in shape to deliver the ball nearly enough and his goals return is dreadful, he simply isn't productive enough to be playing as a Winger long term in my opinion.

 

However there are some very good parts to his game like his stamina, acceleration and for a tall player he has wonderful feet also his short passing is better then his long passes for me, I'd like to see him given a role as a forward runner from the centre of midfield when a natural Right-Winger is brought.

[johnnypd]

Sure the squad is a problem, as it lacks some vital qualities. Both pace and technique. And while Owen and Martins can arguably be said to be better than Shearer and Bellamy individually (I strongly disagree, Yorkie!), they don't work nearly as well together as an attacking unit. Bellamy made a slow Shearer a top class striker for several years. That takes pace, and it also takes extreme determination, which neither of our strikers have at this moment.

 

The squad could possibly be mid-table with a good manager, but not much more. It's not significantly better than last season, as there are fewer bodies in it.

 

agreed. one problem we have is that the squad/team is unbalanced.

 

this is partly the result of underinvestment since ashley arrived, partly because we've appointed poor managers over the years or had them not last long enough, and partly through the last manager didnt have full control over signings. every manager since Robson has had to use other manager's players and the only person who has managed to chance upon a working system to accomodate the best we've got is Keegan, and that was only for a short spell.

 

managers have to bring in specific players who will complement the strengths, and compensate for the weaknesses of, the existing players. it's about working together and be greater tham the sum of their parts, not working in the sense of effort, but in the sense of dovetailing. Jonas (who needs some basic remedial training on how to be a threat) puts more effort in than Robert, but contributes far less to the overall effect of the side.

 

bringing in good individual players who dont necessarily fit into a coherent team isnt really going to work. the Bellamy-Shearer example shows how it can work well if you pinpoint a player with the specific qualities and playing style that certain players, or the side as a whole, need in order to prosper. Whereas Owen-Martins would be an example of two good individual players who dont form a coherent duo, and our lack of physicality and pace throughout the team another example of neglecting overall shape and balance when you dont have a tactical direction to purchases but buy based on individuals without regard for the pattern of the side.

[timnufc22]

I think the squad definetely has some quality & part of the problem is not having a good enough manager - poor motivation to the players that are fit (some of whom are good) to bang on about injuries, when a lot of the injured players would be on the bench anyway. But there are definetely gaping holes in the squad - we desparately need a creator, and obviously cover for left back & right back.

[Guest Alan Shearer 9]

yorkie should be shot for saying Owen is better than Shearer

[Tooj]

Given / Given

Hughes / Beye

O'Brien / Coloccini

Bramble / Bassong

Bernard / Enrique

Solano / Jonas

Speed / Guthrie

Dyer / Barton

Robert / N'Zogbia

Shearer / Owen

Bellamy / Martins

 

In terms of individual quality, the team back then had better players on the whole.

 

However (admittedly i'm a squad sympathiser), i've never claimed this one to be as good as the one from back then. Of course not. That was a last-16 CL team, and it was fucking mint. My argument has simply been that it's not the million miles away that it appears to be. Aye, the current one is not Champions Leauge standard, of course not, but it's far from being relegation standard aswell. It's a good, solid team. Lacks a bit of depth but it's got a stack of decent footballers.

 

Basically, i think it's unfair to lambast this one simply because it's not as good as the one from 2002.

 

So, aye - whilst we don't have the genuine technical quality that Nobby/Robert offered back then, we've got bundles of raw and explosive talent to compensate to a certain extent. Aye, it's nowhere near as good as the 2002 one, but the telling factor is undoubtedly the managers. I won't have it any other way tbh. Sir Bobby was a million miles ahead of this prick we've got now, and it brushes on the rest of the players and club. Sir Bobby not only provided the footballing qualities, but he unified the players and unified the support. It's a cliche but if we had "as good a team as the fans, then we wouldn't be half bad" - Sir Bobby conjoined the two and look what happened.

 

Joe Kinnear? I'm not going to waste my time bothering to make the comparison.

 

The squad isn't the problem.

 

Very good post there Yorkie, although Owen and Martins ahead of Shearer and Bellamy. Somehow I don't think so, on both individual levels and as a partnership Shearer and Bellamy are better during their respective spells.

[Gallowgate End]

Given / Given

Hughes / Beye

O'Brien / Coloccini

Bramble / Bassong

Bernard / Enrique

Solano / Jonas

Speed / Guthrie

Dyer / Barton

Robert / N'Zogbia

Shearer / Owen

Bellamy / Martins

 

In terms of individual quality, the team back then had better players on the whole.

 

However (admittedly i'm a squad sympathiser), i've never claimed this one to be as good as the one from back then. Of course not. That was a last-16 CL team, and it was fucking mint. My argument has simply been that it's not the million miles away that it appears to be. Aye, the current one is not Champions Leauge standard, of course not, but it's far from being relegation standard aswell. It's a good, solid team. Lacks a bit of depth but it's got a stack of decent footballers.

 

Basically, i think it's unfair to lambast this one simply because it's not as good as the one from 2002.

 

So, aye - whilst we don't have the genuine technical quality that Nobby/Robert offered back then, we've got bundles of raw and explosive talent to compensate to a certain extent. Aye, it's nowhere near as good as the 2002 one, but the telling factor is undoubtedly the managers. I won't have it any other way tbh. Sir Bobby was a million miles ahead of this prick we've got now, and it brushes on the rest of the players and club. Sir Bobby not only provided the footballing qualities, but he unified the players and unified the support. It's a cliche but if we had "as good a team as the fans, then we wouldn't be half bad" - Sir Bobby conjoined the two and look what happened.

 

Joe Kinnear? I'm not going to waste my time bothering to make the comparison.

 

The squad isn't the problem.

 

Very good post there Yorkie,<b> although Owen and Martins ahead of Shearer and Bellamy. Somehow I don't think so, on both individual levels and as a partnership Shearer and Bellamy are better during their respective spells.</b>

 

Agree.

[Yorkie]

I wish smileys were more effective.

 

I know, i agree too.

 

Still think if we had a competent manager, we'd find a decent combination between the two we've got now - however.

[Guest saintscoobz]

People who think we have quality in the squad...Need their head examined.