Is Dennis Wise a disruptive influence? Or are the fans making him one?

[Dave]

An alternative explanation?

 

Yeah, I'm sure Keegan wanted to be sacked so he could make a few bob. Probably sent the team out to lose etc.

 

What a fucking joke.

[fredbob]

An alternative explanation?

 

Yeah, I'm sure Keegan wanted to be sacked so he could make a few bob. Probably sent the team out to lose etc.

 

What a fucking joke.

 

Its all fair and well laughing at someones elses opinion, but how about you and others offer you're own explanations which explain the events, Im hearing alot of cirticism but very few retorts, its straight out of the NE5 school of debating.

 

I never said he was right bytheway, all im saying is that those who are laughing at it arent exactly giving there version of events, probably because they know it wouldnt  add up.

 

Having said that, there is part of me that thinks Keegan did use his standing in the area to his advantage in this whole farce, especialy once he knew it wasnt going his way. 

[Dave]

I've no idea what really went on, but I don't feel it deserves arguing against because I think it's a pretty disgusting suggestion.

[fredbob]

I've no idea what really went on, but I don't think it deserves arguing against because I think it's a pretty disgusting suggestion.

 

How do you and others form basis for criticisim if you have no opinion as to what went on?

 

I guess its becasue Keegan loves this club so much that people cant entertain the notion that he may of took advantage of the situation with his standing at the club, especially with a failing buiness behind him, especially with him putting in a full claim against club he loves....its just an idea, not that i fully agree with it.

[Dave]

Suggesting he has taken advantage of the situation (and his support from the fans) is different to saying he only ever came here to get sacked to make money.

 

I don't feel Keegan is untouchable, I just think such a suggestion is pathetic.

[fredbob]

Suggesting he has taken advantage of the situation (and his support from the fans) is different to saying he only ever came here to get sacked to make money.

 

I don't feel Keegan is untouchable, I just think such a suggestion is pathetic.

 

Fair enough.

 

But who's to say that this didnt cross Keegans mind once he knew he was out of his depth?

[ToonMonty]

Suggesting he has taken advantage of the situation (and his support from the fans) is different to saying he only ever came here to get sacked to make money.

 

I don't feel Keegan is untouchable, I just think such a suggestion is pathetic.

 

Fair enough.

 

But who's to say that this didnt cross Keegans mind once he knew he was out of his depth?

 

How was he ot of his depth? the seaon had started OK and the team seemed to be improving and if Dennis Wise is the DOF in charge of recruitment why does he never watch the first team to asses where we need to strengthen and the least said about Xisco and Nacho the better.

 

If he (Wise) is contracted to staff the academy thne fine he's doing that but be more clear with roles and again if he's doing that he shouldn't be forcing 1st teamers on a manager be that Keegan, Kinnear or anyone else.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Suggesting he has taken advantage of the situation (and his support from the fans) is different to saying he only ever came here to get sacked to make money.

 

I don't feel Keegan is untouchable, I just think such a suggestion is pathetic.

 

Fair enough.

 

But who's to say that this didnt cross Keegans mind once he knew he was out of his depth?

 

How was he ot of his depth? the seaon had started OK and the team seemed to be improving and if Dennis Wise is the DOF in charge of recruitment why does he never watch the first team to asses where we need to strengthen and the least said about Xisco and Nacho the better.

 

If he (Wise) is contracted to staff the academy thne fine he's doing that but be more clear with roles and again if he's doing that he shouldn't be forcing 1st teamers on a manager be that Keegan, Kinnear or anyone else.

 

But surely that's the whole argument, we've got nothing to suggest that he ever forced players on anyone. In fact we've got a lot of quotes saying the opposite.

[NG32]

A more pertinent question in all this is why did Wise undermine Keegan?

 

Baring in mind this only happened on the last day of the window and there seems to be a lot of evidence to suggest that Keegan DID have say on the transfers (reportedly tunring down a fair number of foreign targets) why was it that Wise et al felt they had to undermine Keegan in such a big way?

 

Is it a simple case of it always being the plan? In which case why didnt the underminng come much earlier or is there another reason?

 

there's a few quotes from mort from around january which basically say that keegan is just the coach. i think he had some say in the targets but they were unrealistic so wise and the other two had to get the players in as the end of the window was getting nearer.

There’s also quotes from Wise saying Keegan had the final say on transfers. Face it, the management structure Ashley put in place was/is garbage

 

 

So why do you think Wise undermined him on the last day of the transfer window and not the first if this was always the case?

 

For me, the explanation that best fits the information we have is that Keegan was jerking everyone around until someone finally lost their temper and told him to f*** off. Getting sacked with compensation was always Keegan's main objective, and he took advantage of it.

 

 

 

   

 

 

 

 

Everyones happy to laugh and denoune it as rubbish but i dont see many alternative explanations being brought to the table.

 

Personally my theory is that Keegan didnt know the market well enough and struggled to find players who fit in with the clubs (now vindicated transfer policy), he constantly reminded everyone that premiership experience was vitally important but obviously this criteria would contradict the clubs transfer policy as there were few players who would fit into the young and premiership experience criteria, andwould provide value for money, Guthrie is an example of when Keegan got it right.

 

I think that the club brought the attention of many players to keegan but becasue he didnt know who they were and dint have an oppurtunity to see them in action he turned them down, i belive this process went on and on until Wise and co felt they had to act and hence the signing of Xisco and Nacho, we apparently had bids for Warnock and we also alledgedly had atouba on his way which shows that the club were looking to fill the LB spot.

 

 

 

[cp40]

A more pertinent question in all this is why did Wise undermine Keegan?

 

Baring in mind this only happened on the last day of the window and there seems to be a lot of evidence to suggest that Keegan DID have say on the transfers (reportedly tunring down a fair number of foreign targets) why was it that Wise et al felt they had to undermine Keegan in such a big way?

 

Is it a simple case of it always being the plan? In which case why didnt the underminng come much earlier or is there another reason?

 

there's a few quotes from mort from around january which basically say that keegan is just the coach. i think he had some say in the targets but they were unrealistic so wise and the other two had to get the players in as the end of the window was getting nearer.

There’s also quotes from Wise saying Keegan had the final say on transfers. Face it, the management structure Ashley put in place was/is garbage

 

 

So why do you think Wise undermined him on the last day of the transfer window and not the first if this was always the case?

 

For me, the explanation that best fits the information we have is that Keegan was jerking everyone around until someone finally lost their temper and told him to f*** off. Getting sacked with compensation was always Keegan's main objective, and he took advantage of it.

 

 

 

   

 

 

 

 

Everyones happy to laugh and denoune it as rubbish but i dont see many alternative explanations being brought to the table.

 

Personally my theory is that Keegan didnt know the market well enough and struggled to find players who fit in with the clubs (now vindicated transfer policy), he constantly reminded everyone that premiership experience was vitally important but obviously this criteria would contradict the clubs transfer policy as there were few players who would fit into the young and premiership experience criteria, andwould provide value for money, Guthrie is an example of when Keegan got it right.

 

I think that the club brought the attention of many players to keegan but becasue he didnt know who they were and dint have an oppurtunity to see them in action he turned them down, i belive this process went on and on until Wise and co felt they had to act and hence the signing of Xisco and Nacho, we apparently had bids for Warnock and we also alledgedly had atouba on his way which shows that the club were looking to fill the LB spot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

FUCK OFF

[fredbob]

Suggesting he has taken advantage of the situation (and his support from the fans) is different to saying he only ever came here to get sacked to make money.

 

I don't feel Keegan is untouchable, I just think such a suggestion is pathetic.

 

Fair enough.

 

But who's to say that this didnt cross Keegans mind once he knew he was out of his depth?

 

How was he ot of his depth? the seaon had started OK and the team seemed to be improving and if Dennis Wise is the DOF in charge of recruitment why does he never watch the first team to asses where we need to strengthen and the least said about Xisco and Nacho the better.

 

If he (Wise) is contracted to staff the academy thne fine he's doing that but be more clear with roles and again if he's doing that he shouldn't be forcing 1st teamers on a manager be that Keegan, Kinnear or anyone else.

 

In my opinion Keegan didnt know the transfer market well enough, not to the degree that Ashley had hoped anway (he had to look up our squad on the interenet becasue he didnt know who alf of them were), he couldnt provide a list of targets that fitin with the club policy and it meant that we largely pursued Wise and co's list.

 

This is what casued big problems in my opinion.

 

We did seem to be doing well, thats very true but if being undermined was the key issue in him leaving and the undermining occured late in the window, wouldnt that suggest that no underming went on througouht the window, otherwise he'd of left when it first occured, no?

[UV]

I've no idea what really went on, but I don't think it deserves arguing against because I think it's a pretty disgusting suggestion.

 

How do you and others form basis for criticisim if you have no opinion as to what went on?

 

I guess its becasue Keegan loves this club so much that people cant entertain the notion that he may of took advantage of the situation with his standing at the club, especially with a failing buiness behind him, especially with him putting in a full claim against club he loves....its just an idea, not that i fully agree with it.

 

Aren't you the one who keeps banging on about the fact that no-one should be criticising Ashley, Lambias, or Wise because we don't know exactly to the last detail what went on?

[Guest The Libertine]

Suggesting he has taken advantage of the situation (and his support from the fans) is different to saying he only ever came here to get sacked to make money.

 

I don't feel Keegan is untouchable, I just think such a suggestion is pathetic.

 

Fair enough.

 

But who's to say that this didnt cross Keegans mind once he knew he was out of his depth?

 

How was he ot of his depth? the seaon had started OK and the team seemed to be improving and if Dennis Wise is the DOF in charge of recruitment why does he never watch the first team to asses where we need to strengthen and the least said about Xisco and Nacho the better.

 

If he (Wise) is contracted to staff the academy thne fine he's doing that but be more clear with roles and again if he's doing that he shouldn't be forcing 1st teamers on a manager be that Keegan, Kinnear or anyone else.

 

In my opinion Keegan didnt know the transfer market well enough, not to the degree that Ashley had hoped anway (he had to look up our squad on the interenet becasue he didnt know who alf of them were), he couldnt provide a list of targets that fitin with the club policy and it meant that we largely pursued Wise and co's list.

 

thats what i think too. this quote would suggest its more likely than a lot of people want it to be;

 

"I'd like to do what we did last time and surprise people," Keegan added. "It would be nice to break a world record. Why rule it out. I'd like to bring players here that amaze people and we stop just talking about being a big club - but, with our actions, we show that we are.

 

''Sometimes people limit themselves by saying, 'we can't do that'. You say 'why not?' and they don't give you an answer. If we can get this club going in the right direction we have the owner who will find us the money for these players. You start by building up trust with the people who provide the finance that you can find these players at the right price. It's easy to get players to a club once it's flying in the right direction.

 

"It's who you can get. Last time, apart from probably Alan Shearer, most of the people - like David Ginola - it was because something had happened. He had the chance to play at Barcelona but came here."

 

maybe he really did want beckham, lampard etc.

[fredbob]

I've no idea what really went on, but I don't think it deserves arguing against because I think it's a pretty disgusting suggestion.

 

How do you and others form basis for criticisim if you have no opinion as to what went on?

 

I guess its becasue Keegan loves this club so much that people cant entertain the notion that he may of took advantage of the situation with his standing at the club, especially with a failing buiness behind him, especially with him putting in a full claim against club he loves....its just an idea, not that i fully agree with it.

 

Aren't you the one who keeps banging on about the fact that no-one should be criticising Ashley, Lambias, or Wise because we don't know exactly to the last detail what went on?

 

In the immediate aftermath of the sitaution, yes i did. More vocal about it during the pathetic protests and banner waving, becasue i knew the problem it would cause, i was also pushing this "theory" along time ago and didnt get a single credible retort.

 

Everyones criticising Wise and Co for underming Keegan, no ones asking why he was undermined, its a failry basic question, incidentally a question the majority of fans still arent asking.

 

(Im assuming you have the 3 month old post ready to copy and paste in case i denied it )

 

A little bit of foresight goes a long way.

 

The waters becoming a lot more clear now, if you can find many things to criticise Ashley, Wise and co then feel free, i can only think of 2, poor communication, and appointing Keegan.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Nobody with any sense would have put Kevin Keegan in charge of selecting players after he'd been out of the game for a few years. It was absolutely neccessary to put a system in place to ensure we didn't waste money like before.

[Zero]

 

 

thats what i think too. this quote would suggest its more likely than a lot of people want it to be;

 

"I'd like to do what we did last time and surprise people," Keegan added. "It would be nice to break a world record. Why rule it out. I'd like to bring players here that amaze people and we stop just talking about being a big club - but, with our actions, we show that we are.

 

''Sometimes people limit themselves by saying, 'we can't do that'. You say 'why not?' and they don't give you an answer. If we can get this club going in the right direction we have the owner who will find us the money for these players. You start by building up trust with the people who provide the finance that you can find these players at the right price. It's easy to get players to a club once it's flying in the right direction.

 

"It's who you can get. Last time, apart from probably Alan Shearer, most of the people - like David Ginola - it was because something had happened. He had the chance to play at Barcelona but came here."

 

maybe he really did want beckham, lampard etc.

 

I wonder how Ashley feel when he heard this "dream factory" speech.

 

Fredbob, add "did not give Allardyce enough backings/sack him immediately" into Ashley.co's criticizing list.  Agree with all the other words.

[fredbob]

 

 

thats what i think too. this quote would suggest its more likely than a lot of people want it to be;

 

"I'd like to do what we did last time and surprise people," Keegan added. "It would be nice to break a world record. Why rule it out. I'd like to bring players here that amaze people and we stop just talking about being a big club - but, with our actions, we show that we are.

 

''Sometimes people limit themselves by saying, 'we can't do that'. You say 'why not?' and they don't give you an answer. If we can get this club going in the right direction we have the owner who will find us the money for these players. You start by building up trust with the people who provide the finance that you can find these players at the right price. It's easy to get players to a club once it's flying in the right direction.

 

"It's who you can get. Last time, apart from probably Alan Shearer, most of the people - like David Ginola - it was because something had happened. He had the chance to play at Barcelona but came here."

 

maybe he really did want beckham, lampard etc.

 

I wonder how Ashley feel when he heard this "dream factory" speech.

 

Fredbob, add "did not give Allardyce enough backings/sack him immediately" into Ashley.co's criticizing list.  Agree with all the other words.

 

I would if agreed with it but i dont.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Keegan also said in that bit:

 

You start by building up trust with the people who provide the finance that you can find these players at the right price.

 

Something that never seemed to happen, for whatever reason. Maybe their ideas of the 'the right price' where too far apart, or maybe Keegan forgot about this principle and wanted Ashley to spend big straight away.

[Guest The Libertine]

Keegan also said in that bit:

 

You start by building up trust with the people who provide the finance that you can find these players at the right price.

 

Something that never seemed to happen, for whatever reason. Maybe their ideas of the 'the right price' where too far apart, or maybe Keegan forgot about this principle and wanted Ashley to spend big straight away.

 

another theory going around is that he agreed with the "system" when he took the job in january, hoping he could later persuade ashley to spend big money in the summer but when this didnt happen, he quit.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Keegan also said in that bit:

 

You start by building up trust with the people who provide the finance that you can find these players at the right price.

 

Something that never seemed to happen, for whatever reason. Maybe their ideas of the 'the right price' where too far apart, or maybe Keegan forgot about this principle and wanted Ashley to spend big straight away.

 

another theory going around is that he agreed with the "system" when he took the job in january, hoping he could later persuade ashley to spend big money in the summer but when this didnt happen, he quit.

 

Definitely possible, I know I would have agreed to almost anything to get the job if I'd been in his shoes.

[Guest fading star]

Keegan also said in that bit:

 

You start by building up trust with the people who provide the finance that you can find these players at the right price.

 

Something that never seemed to happen, for whatever reason. Maybe their ideas of the 'the right price' where too far apart, or maybe Keegan forgot about this principle and wanted Ashley to spend big straight away.

Or perhaps he just wanted a left back. He did publicly state a left back was his top priority at the start of the summer.

[fredbob]

Keegan also said in that bit:

 

You start by building up trust with the people who provide the finance that you can find these players at the right price.

 

Something that never seemed to happen, for whatever reason. Maybe their ideas of the 'the right price' where too far apart, or maybe Keegan forgot about this principle and wanted Ashley to spend big straight away.

Or perhaps he just wanted a left back. He did publicly state a left back was his top priority at the start of the summer.

 

He walked becasue he couldnt get a left back?

[Guest fading star]

Keegan also said in that bit:

 

You start by building up trust with the people who provide the finance that you can find these players at the right price.

 

Something that never seemed to happen, for whatever reason. Maybe their ideas of the 'the right price' where too far apart, or maybe Keegan forgot about this principle and wanted Ashley to spend big straight away.

Or perhaps he just wanted a left back. He did publicly state a left back was his top priority at the start of the summer.

 

He walked becasue he couldnt get a left back?

As an example of a broader principle. We needed a left back and our director of recruitment failed to deliver, preferring to spend what little cash was available on Xisco.

[fredbob]

Keegan also said in that bit:

 

You start by building up trust with the people who provide the finance that you can find these players at the right price.

 

Something that never seemed to happen, for whatever reason. Maybe their ideas of the 'the right price' where too far apart, or maybe Keegan forgot about this principle and wanted Ashley to spend big straight away.

Or perhaps he just wanted a left back. He did publicly state a left back was his top priority at the start of the summer.

 

He walked becasue he couldnt get a left back?

As an example of a broader principle. We needed a left back and our director of recruitment failed to deliver, preferring to spend what little cash was available on Xisco.

 

I cant knock that point down, its a fair point, all i can say though is that Atouba was on his way and we did have a bid for Warnock knocked back, again, Would warnock represent value, especially in front of the younger Enrique who'd just been signed for £6m. Was Atouba another player that Keegan turned down (rightly so in my opinion)?

[Shearergol]

Keegan also said in that bit:

 

You start by building up trust with the people who provide the finance that you can find these players at the right price.

 

Something that never seemed to happen, for whatever reason. Maybe their ideas of the 'the right price' where too far apart, or maybe Keegan forgot about this principle and wanted Ashley to spend big straight away.

Or perhaps he just wanted a left back. He did publicly state a left back was his top priority at the start of the summer.

 

He walked becasue he couldnt get a left back?

As an example of a broader principle. We needed a left back and our director of recruitment failed to deliver, preferring to spend what little cash was available on Xisco.

 

We also needed a striker. Especially now!