Guest north shields lad Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 do you think the situation would have been the same if the numbers at the gate were smaller ? do you think none of those ticketless fans were in that crowd attempting to gain access to the ground illegally ? The Leppings Lane end was sold out correct? the whole of that end was yet to be filled with Liverpool fans, there were sections that were only partly filled, and the centre section were everyone went first was already full, right? Now outside the ground you have all the other fans with tickets for the Liverpool end (including all those delayed), all the Liverpool fans who had been sent to that end of the ground from the other ends (there were probably already some of these fans in the Leppings Lane end). And the ticketless fans (however many this may of been). Instead of delaying the kick-off to filter these fans into the ground, the decision is made to not only open the gates to let everyone in (who are all going to obviously rush in so as not to miss kick off, itself a H&S issue, the police's second mistake is to not filter these fans into the sections that had less fans, instead letting all these fans into an already full area). And if that wasn't bad enough, they then failed to do anything about the carnage that ensued, when they were needed most. And that is what basically caused the disaster. I wonder why the FA didnt give Liverpool the bigger end, as they have a far bigger support than Forrest. For those of us old enough to remember, then it was a terrible thing, and anyone who went the match regular will probably of thought the same thing - But for the grace of god, it could of been us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 people really need to remember football fans in the '80's and the police force in the '80's both were a fucking disgrace to different extents and for different reasons - this was always going to happen to some team and to 'x' amount of people, it's was liverpool unfortunately for them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 do you think the situation would have been the same if the numbers at the gate were smaller ? do you think none of those ticketless fans were in that crowd attempting to gain access to the ground illegally ? The Leppings Lane end was sold out correct? the whole of that end was yet to be filled with Liverpool fans, there were sections that were only partly filled, and the centre section were everyone went first was already full, right? Now outside the ground you have all the other fans with tickets for the Liverpool end (including all those delayed), all the Liverpool fans who had been sent to that end of the ground from the other ends (there were probably already some of these fans in the Leppings Lane end). And the ticketless fans (however many this may of been). Instead of delaying the kick-off to filter these fans into the ground, the decision is made to not only open the gates to let everyone in (who are all going to obviously rush in so as not to miss kick off, itself a H&S issue, the police's second mistake is to not filter these fans into the sections that had less fans, instead letting all these fans into an already full area). And if that wasn't bad enough, they then failed to do anything about the carnage that ensued, when they were needed most. Not worth you posting that Magpie418. Despite it being common sense, and despite Lord Justice Taylor reporting that the Liverpool fans were not at fault Madras knows better. pleased you are coming round eventually f*** off, your attitude makes me feel sick tbh. Shame you cannot recognise sarcasm. Show some respect man. i'm sarcastic back and you don't recognise it...............obvious you don't recognise irony eh ? i have nothing but respect for those that died, those injured and those who still suffer from what happened that day. not just livepoll fans by the way but some in the police when they realiased what was happening, groundstaff ambulance staff etc. i have nothing but loathing for those that contributed to it and won't accept it. (some fans, police,groundstaff etc) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 do you think the situation would have been the same if the numbers at the gate were smaller ? do you think none of those ticketless fans were in that crowd attempting to gain access to the ground illegally ? The Leppings Lane end was sold out correct? the whole of that end was yet to be filled with Liverpool fans, there were sections that were only partly filled, and the centre section were everyone went first was already full, right? Now outside the ground you have all the other fans with tickets for the Liverpool end (including all those delayed), all the Liverpool fans who had been sent to that end of the ground from the other ends (there were probably already some of these fans in the Leppings Lane end). And the ticketless fans (however many this may of been). Instead of delaying the kick-off to filter these fans into the ground, the decision is made to not only open the gates to let everyone in (who are all going to obviously rush in so as not to miss kick off, itself a H&S issue, the police's second mistake is to not filter these fans into the sections that had less fans, instead letting all these fans into an already full area). And if that wasn't bad enough, they then failed to do anything about the carnage that ensued, when they were needed most. And that is what basically caused the disaster. I wonder why the FA didnt give Liverpool the bigger end, as they have a far bigger support than Forrest. For those of us old enough to remember, then it was a terrible thing, and anyone who went the match regular will probably of thought the same thing - But for the grace of god, it could of been us. i think (not 100% sure),but liverpool got marginally more tickets and were going to have ther leppings lane end plus. the reason to give them that end was the police thought liverpool fans would mainly go to wadsley bridge to get football special trains which is at that end of the ground. (i think) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 i have nothing but loathing for those that contributed to it and won't accept it. (some fans, police,groundstaff etc) It was the police's decision to open the gates and let in a large amount of liverpool fans, the police would of known that amongst these fans were fans without tickets, but opened the gate regardless. If they had delayed kick off and policed the turnstiles properly this tragedy would not have happened. You cannot blame ticketless fans who are given the chance to watch their team when they themselves are let into the ground by the police. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 i have nothing but loathing for those that contributed to it and won't accept it. (some fans, police,groundstaff etc) It was the police's decision to open the gates and let in a large amount of liverpool fans, the police would of known that amongst these fans were fans without tickets, but opened the gate regardless. If they had delayed kick off and policed the turnstiles properly this tragedy would not have happened. You cannot blame ticketless fans who are given the chance to watch their team when they themselves are let into the ground by the police. they're not at the ground they're not involved, correct? so they had an effect on events and this must SHARE a portion of the blame you have to see this? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 I have a link to the documentary, am I allowed to post it seeing as it was aired 13 years ago? You can always PM it around, Kryten if linking to it on here isn't allowed. Would like to see it. Same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shearergol Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 ok there might have been some ticketless fans, but it was bad policing that caused this to happen and nothing more. It's probably just your English which is incorrect here, but the bad policing wasn't the "cause" but good policing should have been the prevention. The large number of fans all pushing to get on the terraces was the cause. Unfortunately, that was the natural reaction of a football fan trying to see his team. It's just a shame that the footballing authorities hadn't come up with a solution before such a disaster took place. Everyone knows that mistakes were made here, but for some reason if the police make a mistake it's automatically seen as them being wankers. Did any of the police receive specific training on how to cope with this kind of situation? Honestly question.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 they're not at the ground they're not involved, correct? so they had an effect on events and this must SHARE a portion of the blame you have to see this? No. You will always get ticketless fans turning up at games, wether its getting tickets for other parts of the ground, tickets off touts or pole vaulting over the wall, it happens, especially an important game just down the road (in relation to Europe). The amount of ticketless fans would not of made a difference to the amount of fans already with tickets (judging by the empty sections in that end) that were allowed to swarm into an already full section once the doors were opened, and there would of still of been plenty of fans outside the ground unable to get in (with or without tickets). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Did any of the police receive specific training on how to cope with this kind of situation? Honestly question.... Their training is all about keeping order (by any means necessary), they failed, and with that failure came an inability to understand a situation involving people that needed help, not discipline. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 they're not at the ground they're not involved, correct? so they had an effect on events and this must SHARE a portion of the blame you have to see this? No. You will always get ticketless fans turning up at games, wether its getting tickets for other parts of the ground, tickets off touts or pole vaulting over the wall, it happens, especially an important game just down the road (in relation to Europe). The amount of ticketless fans would not of made a difference to the amount of fans already with tickets (judging by the empty sections in that end) that were allowed to swarm into an already full section once the doors were opened, and there would of still of been plenty of fans outside the ground unable to get in (with or without tickets). waffle, did the ticketless fans contribute to the problem? if they did they deserve a share of the blame divorce yourself from the emotion man, otherwise you'll never be able to analyse anything objectively the weight of the blame lies with the police, that is for sure, but they don't bear 100% of it and anyone who says they do should have a think Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shearergol Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Did any of the police receive specific training on how to cope with this kind of situation? Honestly question.... Their training is all about keeping order (by any means necessary), they failed, and with that failure came an inability to understand a situation involving people that needed help, not discipline. Deliberate mistake or poor judgement? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 they're not at the ground they're not involved, correct? so they had an effect on events and this must SHARE a portion of the blame you have to see this? No. You will always get ticketless fans turning up at games, wether its getting tickets for other parts of the ground, tickets off touts or pole vaulting over the wall, it happens, especially an important game just down the road (in relation to Europe). The amount of ticketless fans would not of made a difference to the amount of fans already with tickets (judging by the empty sections in that end) that were allowed to swarm into an already full section once the doors were opened, and there would of still of been plenty of fans outside the ground unable to get in (with or without tickets). waffle, did the ticketless fans contribute to the problem? if they did they deserve a share of the blame divorce yourself from the emotion man, otherwise you'll never be able to analyse anything objectively the weight of the blame lies with the police, that is for sure, but they don't bear 100% of it and anyone who says they do should have a think Ok, the main stand is already full, there are other sections with less fans (maybe some of these left the already full section because it was already full), the police decided to open a large gate and let those not already into the ground swarm into the already full area. Do I think the amount of ticketless fans would have any bearing on the outcome in relation to the total number of fans with tickets (including those sent there from other parts of the ground) that were waiting to get in, then no I don't. The decision should of been made to delay kick off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 they're not at the ground they're not involved, correct? so they had an effect on events and this must SHARE a portion of the blame you have to see this? No. You will always get ticketless fans turning up at games, wether its getting tickets for other parts of the ground, tickets off touts or pole vaulting over the wall, it happens, especially an important game just down the road (in relation to Europe). The amount of ticketless fans would not of made a difference to the amount of fans already with tickets (judging by the empty sections in that end) that were allowed to swarm into an already full section once the doors were opened, and there would of still of been plenty of fans outside the ground unable to get in (with or without tickets). waffle, did the ticketless fans contribute to the problem? if they did they deserve a share of the blame divorce yourself from the emotion man, otherwise you'll never be able to analyse anything objectively the weight of the blame lies with the police, that is for sure, but they don't bear 100% of it and anyone who says they do should have a think Ok, the main stand is already full, there are other sections with less fans (maybe some of these left the already full section because it was already full), the police decided to open a large gate and let those not already into the ground swarm into the already full area. Do I think the amount of ticketless fans would have any bearing on the outcome in relation to the total number of fans with tickets (including those sent there from other parts of the ground) that were waiting to get in, then no I don't. The decision should of been made to delay kick off. fine, the ticketless fans at the ground that day had no bearing on events, it was all the police...cunts that they are to a man deluded Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Did any of the police receive specific training on how to cope with this kind of situation? Honestly question.... Their training is all about keeping order (by any means necessary), they failed, and with that failure came an inability to understand a situation involving people that needed help, not discipline. Deliberate mistake or poor judgement? I like to think that beneath that cold hard exterior there is warm human flesh, and a heart. History tends to tell a different story though. In answer to your question I would say the latter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 it was all the police...c***s that they are to a man Drivin' down your freeways Midnite alleys roam Cops in cars, the topless bars Never saw a woman So alone, so alone.. deluded As i've said, in my mind the mistake was to open the gate instead of delaying the kick off, if that makes me deluded so be it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 it was all the police...c***s that they are to a man Drivin' down your freeways Midnite alleys roam Cops in cars, the topless bars Never saw a woman So alone, so alone.. deluded As i've said, in my mind the mistake was to open the gate instead of delaying the kick off, if that makes me deluded so be it. what's the doors quote for/meant to imply? or just a quote about cops in cars as would seem sensible 1%! give me 1% fans share of the blame and i'll happily walk into the sunset...! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 it was all the police...c***s that they are to a man Drivin' down your freeways Midnite alleys roam Cops in cars, the topless bars Never saw a woman So alone, so alone.. deluded As i've said, in my mind the mistake was to open the gate instead of delaying the kick off, if that makes me deluded so be it. i think everyone agrees with that. what some are picking up on was the reason the police needed to take that decision in the first place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 what's the doors quote for/meant to imply? or just a quote about cops in cars as would seem sensible I figured you were down with the Lizard King (judging by your username). So stuck 10p in the jukebox (I'm thoughtful like that). 1%! give me 1% fans share of the blame and i'll happily walk into the sunset...! It hurts to set you free But you'll never follow me The end of laughter and soft lies The end of nights we tried to die.. (that's 20p gone) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 what's the doors quote for/meant to imply? or just a quote about cops in cars as would seem sensible I figured you were down with the Lizard King (judging by your username). So stuck 10p in the jukebox (I'm thoughtful like that). 1%! give me 1% fans share of the blame and i'll happily walk into the sunset...! It hurts to set you free But you'll never follow me The end of laughter and soft lies The end of nights we tried to die.. (that's 20p gone) need a little bowing smiley! i doff my cap sir Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 i think everyone agrees with that. what some are picking up on was the reason the police needed to take that decision in the first place. Well there are some that think it was all those marauding ticketless thugs baying at the gates. I think the answer is a little more straight forward, the authorities did not want to delay kick off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 i think everyone agrees with that. what some are picking up on was the reason the police needed to take that decision in the first place. Well there are some that think it was all those marauding ticketless thugs baying at the gates. I think the answer is a little more straight forward, the authorities did not want to delay kick off. some think a mindless minority adding to it as they had done many times before. funny thast those saying that tend not to put words in others mouths. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toonlass Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 ok there might have been some ticketless fans, but it was bad policing that caused this to happen and nothing more. It's probably just your English which is incorrect here, but the bad policing wasn't the "cause" but good policing should have been the prevention. The large number of fans all pushing to get on the terraces was the cause. Unfortunately, that was the natural reaction of a football fan trying to see his team. It's just a shame that the footballing authorities hadn't come up with a solution before such a disaster took place. Everyone knows that mistakes were made here, but for some reason if the police make a mistake it's automatically seen as them being wankers. Did any of the police receive specific training on how to cope with this kind of situation? Honestly question.... Bad policing caused more fans at the Leppings Lane end, when they would not let the fans with tickets in other parts of the ground go to their seats, but insisted they go to the Leppings Lane end. Bad policing allowed fans without tickets to get to the turnstile area. Bad policing mismanaged the fans trying to enter the ground, due to hold-ups on the trains and roadworks. Bad policing meant that the fans were able to go down the tunnel to the already overcrowded pens, when they could have physically stopped the fans and directed them to empty pens. Bad policing meant that the gates at the front of the pens were kept locked despite people dying infront of the police's eyes. Bad policing meant that it was Bruce Grobelaar who noticed exactly what was happening and said something about it, rather than asuming that it was hooliganism. Bad policing meant a number of ambulances were called and made to wait outside while people died on the pitch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howaythelads Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Some sensible posts by Madras, mrmojorisin75 and Shearergol. For those who stupidly insist the police should take 100% of the blame, you need to take a good long look at yourselves. Some of the posts that appear to completely absolve people of individual responsibility are quite shocking. Yes, we have a Police force and they got it wrong, but individuals have to accept responsibility for their actions otherwise we'd have anarchy. It was the actions of some liverpool supporters that created the situation which the Police then messed up badly. Both are to blame. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toonlass Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Some sensible posts by Madras, mrmojorisin75 and Shearergol. For those who stupidly insist the police should take 100% of the blame, you need to take a good long look at yourselves. Some of the posts that appear to completely absolve people of individual responsibility are quite shocking. Yes, we have a Police force and they got it wrong, but individuals have to accept responsibility for their actions otherwise we'd have anarchy. It was the actions of some liverpool supporters that created the situation which the Police then messed up badly. Both are to blame. So you think that the Taylor enquiry and subsiquent report were wrong too then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now