Hillsborough disaster

[Guest toonlass]

A minority of Liverpool fans should take SOME of the blame for Hillsbrough and it's extremely hypocritical for the entire LFC support to point the finger at the police and only the police.

 

the victims can never be part of the cause, it's always the case. The police and footballing authorities should take the bulk of the blame, that i'm not disputing for a second, but are they aren't the only causes here, absolutely not in a million years.

 

Well it's all about how much effect these ticketless fans actually had on an already badly organised & mismanaged event, isn't it?

 

The actions/inactions of the police/footballing authorities both before, during and after the event, along with the vile *reporting* of various media outlets, eclipse's any finger pointing at a small section of fans who may/may-not of contributed to the disaster, in my book.

 

But each to their own.

 

 

 

 

it does eclipse it. no-one is saying any diffefrent,everyone is saying that, but (you just knew that "but" was coming didncha ?) after having witnessed with my own peepers the tactics of liverpool fans to gain illegal access to grounds i have little alternative but to add this into the blame.

 

note....not all liverpool fans but enough to start in motion, or add to, the chain of events.

 

Again, you must be much more knowledgable than Lord Justice Taylor. Why didn't they call you up to head the enquiry! Maybe your conclusions are based not on the facts of the event, but your own biases against a group of fans eh?

[madras]

A minority of Liverpool fans should take SOME of the blame for Hillsbrough and it's extremely hypocritical for the entire LFC support to point the finger at the police and only the police.

 

the victims can never be part of the cause, it's always the case. The police and footballing authorities should take the bulk of the blame, that i'm not disputing for a second, but are they aren't the only causes here, absolutely not in a million years.

 

Well it's all about how much effect these ticketless fans actually had on an already badly organised & mismanaged event, isn't it?

 

The actions/inactions of the police/footballing authorities both before, during and after the event, along with the vile *reporting* of various media outlets, eclipse's any finger pointing at a small section of fans who may/may-not of contributed to the disaster, in my book.

 

But each to their own.

 

 

 

 

it does eclipse it. no-one is saying any diffefrent,everyone is saying that, but (you just knew that "but" was coming didncha ?) after having witnessed with my own peepers the tactics of liverpool fans to gain illegal access to grounds i have little alternative but to add this into the blame.

 

note....not all liverpool fans but enough to start in motion, or add to, the chain of events.

 

Again, you must be much more knowledgable than Lord Justice Taylor. Why didn't they call you up to head the enquiry! Maybe your conclusions are based not on the facts of the event, but your own biases against a group of fans eh?

if you look i've also addressed three points as posed by scouseman which were taking from the report. as i've siad i'll go off what i have witnessed liverpool fans do before.

 

the day i don't question a government enquiry will be the day i stop thinking.

 

take particular note of note 200 as posted by scouseman, between 200 and 2,000 estimated ticketless fans. now if they carried out the tactics i've seen liverpool fans do and if that was what lead to the openeing of the gate ?

[Guest toonlass]

That's like saying that someone must be guilty of an alleged crime despite their being no evidence to prove it because they have a criminal history. You have to look at the facts on the day, not previous events.

[madras]

That's like saying that someone must be guilty of an alleged crime despite their being no evidence to prove it because they have a criminal history. You have to look at the facts on the day, not previous events.

the facts were there were ticketless fans there, there was a push on the gate to get in,liverpool fans have a long history of doing this throughout europe,the police fucked upin controlling it.

 

if you want to believe that those ticketless fans made no attempt to gain illegal access to the ground then that is up t you.

[magpie418]

it does eclipse it. no-one is saying any diffefrent,everyone is saying that, but (you just knew that "but" was coming didncha ?) after having witnessed with my own peepers the tactics of liverpool fans to gain illegal access to grounds i have little alternative but to add this into the blame.

 

note....not all liverpool fans but enough to start in motion, or add to, the chain of events.

 

But (damn.. it's catching), the problem started when police opened the central gate to let in a much larger amount of fans, are you saying these fans were all ticketless?, there is a good chance that the majority of these had tickets, and remember at this point there were sections of that end of the ground that were not full and had plenty of space, the problem was that the police did not filter this mass of fans into those areas, they instead let these fans surge through into the area already full.

[madras]

it does eclipse it. no-one is saying any diffefrent,everyone is saying that, but (you just knew that "but" was coming didncha ?) after having witnessed with my own peepers the tactics of liverpool fans to gain illegal access to grounds i have little alternative but to add this into the blame.

 

note....not all liverpool fans but enough to start in motion, or add to, the chain of events.

 

But (damn.. it's catching), the problem started when police opened the central gate to let in a much larger amount of fans, are you saying these fans were all ticketless?, there is a good chance that the majority of these had tickets, and remember at this point there were sections of that end of the ground that were not full and had plenty of space, the problem was that the police did not filter this mass of fans into those areas, they instead let these fans surge through into the area already full.

no i'm not saying that bit even if you halve the estimated ticketless number to 1000 it would make a hell of a difference perhaps meaning that the gate may not have needeed to be opened.

[Guest toonlass]

That's like saying that someone must be guilty of an alleged crime despite their being no evidence to prove it because they have a criminal history. You have to look at the facts on the day, not previous events.

the facts were there were ticketless fans there, there was a push on the gate to get in,liverpool fans have a long history of doing this throughout europe,the police fucked upin controlling it.

 

if you want to believe that those ticketless fans made no attempt to gain illegal access to the ground then that is up t you.

 

And those fans outside the ground, they were all ticketless and drunk eh? These weren't fans with tickets who had been held up in the roadworks and rail problems? The police could have had the kickoff delayed for half an hour and let the fans in the ground in an orderly way. The police fucked up, they opened a gate and they failed to direct the fans into the empty pens.

[madras]

That's like saying that someone must be guilty of an alleged crime despite their being no evidence to prove it because they have a criminal history. You have to look at the facts on the day, not previous events.

the facts were there were ticketless fans there, there was a push on the gate to get in,liverpool fans have a long history of doing this throughout europe,the police f***ed upin controlling it.

 

if you want to believe that those ticketless fans made no attempt to gain illegal access to the ground then that is up t you.

 

And those fans outside the ground, they were all ticketless and drunk eh? These weren't fans with tickets who had been held up in the roadworks and rail problems? The police could have had the kickoff delayed for half an hour and let the fans in the ground in an orderly way. The police f***ed up, they opened a gate and they failed to direct the fans into the empty pens.

where do i say all ? and i never mentioned drunk. stop trying to make out i'm saying things i don't.

 

what i am saying is a sizeable ammount enough to tip the balance between the police opening the gate and not.

[Guest toonlass]

That's like saying that someone must be guilty of an alleged crime despite their being no evidence to prove it because they have a criminal history. You have to look at the facts on the day, not previous events.

the facts were there were ticketless fans there, there was a push on the gate to get in,liverpool fans have a long history of doing this throughout europe,the police f***ed upin controlling it.

 

if you want to believe that those ticketless fans made no attempt to gain illegal access to the ground then that is up t you.

 

And those fans outside the ground, they were all ticketless and drunk eh? These weren't fans with tickets who had been held up in the roadworks and rail problems? The police could have had the kickoff delayed for half an hour and let the fans in the ground in an orderly way. The police f***ed up, they opened a gate and they failed to direct the fans into the empty pens.

where do i say all ?

 

what i am saying is a sizeable ammount enough to tip the balance between the police opening the gate and not.

 

I am not saying you said anything, I am asking you two questions.

 

And had the police done their job and POLICED outside the ground then there wouldn't have been a need to open the gate. I am sure they had intelligence on Liverpool fans and knew about their behaviour. The police also did not allow Liverpool fans with tickets to other areas of the ground go there, they were directed (and in some cases told in no uncertain terms) to the Leppings Lane end, which made the amount of Liverpool fans at that end even greater. Add to that the delays from the rail and road works for fans with tickets (which the police would know about) and it was inevitable that a large amount of fans would be trying to get into the ground late.

 

By opening the gate and not ensuring that the fans went into the empty pens the police allowed this disaster to happen. Add to that the police not opening the gates at the front of the pens when fans were being crushed to death, not allowing ambulances into the ground to assist the injured, and standing like pricks at a wedding when fans were trying to save each other then its obvious where the blame lies.

 

 

[madras]

That's like saying that someone must be guilty of an alleged crime despite their being no evidence to prove it because they have a criminal history. You have to look at the facts on the day, not previous events.

the facts were there were ticketless fans there, there was a push on the gate to get in,liverpool fans have a long history of doing this throughout europe,the police f***ed upin controlling it.

 

if you want to believe that those ticketless fans made no attempt to gain illegal access to the ground then that is up t you.

 

And those fans outside the ground, they were all ticketless and drunk eh? These weren't fans with tickets who had been held up in the roadworks and rail problems? The police could have had the kickoff delayed for half an hour and let the fans in the ground in an orderly way. The police f***ed up, they opened a gate and they failed to direct the fans into the empty pens.

where do i say all ?

 

what i am saying is a sizeable ammount enough to tip the balance between the police opening the gate and not.

 

I am not saying you said anything, I am asking you two questions.

 

And had the police done their job and POLICED outside the ground then there wouldn't have been a need to open the gate. I am sure they had intelligence on Liverpool fans and knew about their behaviour. The police also did not allow Liverpool fans with tickets to other areas of the ground go there, they were directed (and in some cases told in no uncertain terms) to the Leppings Lane end, which made the amount of Liverpool fans at that end even greater. Add to that the delays from the rail and road works for fans with tickets (which the police would know about) and it was inevitable that a large amount of fans would be trying to get into the ground late.

 

By opening the gate and not ensuring that the fans went into the empty pens the police allowed this disaster to happen. Add to that the police not opening the gates at the front of the pens when fans were being crushed to death, not allowing ambulances into the ground to assist the injured, and standing like pricks at a wedding when fans were trying to save each other then its obvious where the blame lies.

 

 

don't try to wriggle out of it. i've already stated numerous times that i don't think they were ALL ticketless and as for drunk you may aswell have asked if i thought they were all one legged lesbians carrying orchids in havasacks.

 

 

yes i agree the police should have policed it better and f***ed up massivly all round but you are trying to blame the police for not stopping people doing stuff they shouldn't without casting any thought to those people themselves. (yes the police should take the blame if there is enough evidence to catch  a shoplifter ,but they dont,but lets blame the shoplifter aswell).

 

take even a couple of hundred away from the gate and i'll guess the police wouldn't have opened that gate.

[Guest toonlass]

That's like saying that someone must be guilty of an alleged crime despite their being no evidence to prove it because they have a criminal history. You have to look at the facts on the day, not previous events.

the facts were there were ticketless fans there, there was a push on the gate to get in,liverpool fans have a long history of doing this throughout europe,the police f***ed upin controlling it.

 

if you want to believe that those ticketless fans made no attempt to gain illegal access to the ground then that is up t you.

 

And those fans outside the ground, they were all ticketless and drunk eh? These weren't fans with tickets who had been held up in the roadworks and rail problems? The police could have had the kickoff delayed for half an hour and let the fans in the ground in an orderly way. The police f***ed up, they opened a gate and they failed to direct the fans into the empty pens.

where do i say all ?

 

what i am saying is a sizeable ammount enough to tip the balance between the police opening the gate and not.

 

I am not saying you said anything, I am asking you two questions.

 

And had the police done their job and POLICED outside the ground then there wouldn't have been a need to open the gate. I am sure they had intelligence on Liverpool fans and knew about their behaviour. The police also did not allow Liverpool fans with tickets to other areas of the ground go there, they were directed (and in some cases told in no uncertain terms) to the Leppings Lane end, which made the amount of Liverpool fans at that end even greater. Add to that the delays from the rail and road works for fans with tickets (which the police would know about) and it was inevitable that a large amount of fans would be trying to get into the ground late.

 

By opening the gate and not ensuring that the fans went into the empty pens the police allowed this disaster to happen. Add to that the police not opening the gates at the front of the pens when fans were being crushed to death, not allowing ambulances into the ground to assist the injured, and standing like pricks at a wedding when fans were trying to save each other then its obvious where the blame lies.

 

 

don't try to wriggle out of it. i've already stated numerous times that i don't think they were ALL ticketless and as for drunk you may aswell have asked if i thought they were all one legged lesbians carrying orchids in havasacks.

 

 

yes i agree the police should have policed it better and fucked up massivly all round but you are trying to blame the police for not stopping people doing stuff they shouldn't without casting any thought to those people themselves. (yes the police should take the blame if there is enough evidence to catch  and shoplifter but they dont,but lets blame the shoplifter aswell).

 

take even a couple of hundred away from the gate and i'll guess the police wouldn't have opened that gate.

 

I am not trying to wriggle out of anything. Surely if the Taylor report was biased it would have found that the fans were to blame and not the police? As it was the police fucked up. They would have known prior to the game that there would have been some ticketless fans trying to get in (seeing that it was common knowledge that football fans of a lot of clubs did this, not just Liverpool). They had the opportunity to prevent fans from getting into or even close to the ground if they didn't have tickets. They also directed fans with tickets for other parts of the ground into the Leppings Lane end, which they would have known would increase congestion around that part of the ground (as its not rocket science to realise that if fans are not in the part of the ground that they have tickets for but in another part, that second part will become overcrowded). They opened the gates because a crowd built up, partly caused by the road and train delays (which the police knew about). Do you think that the fans would have crowded into the pens had they known that they would crush their fellow fans to death? The police should have made them go into the side pens (and they could have easily done that had they used a bit of common sense). Blaming the Liverpool fans for this disaster is just wrong, ok there might have been some ticketless fans, but it was bad policing that caused this to happen and nothing more.

[madras]

That's like saying that someone must be guilty of an alleged crime despite their being no evidence to prove it because they have a criminal history. You have to look at the facts on the day, not previous events.

the facts were there were ticketless fans there, there was a push on the gate to get in,liverpool fans have a long history of doing this throughout europe,the police f***ed upin controlling it.

 

if you want to believe that those ticketless fans made no attempt to gain illegal access to the ground then that is up t you.

 

And those fans outside the ground, they were all ticketless and drunk eh? These weren't fans with tickets who had been held up in the roadworks and rail problems? The police could have had the kickoff delayed for half an hour and let the fans in the ground in an orderly way. The police f***ed up, they opened a gate and they failed to direct the fans into the empty pens.

where do i say all ?

 

what i am saying is a sizeable ammount enough to tip the balance between the police opening the gate and not.

 

I am not saying you said anything, I am asking you two questions.

 

And had the police done their job and POLICED outside the ground then there wouldn't have been a need to open the gate. I am sure they had intelligence on Liverpool fans and knew about their behaviour. The police also did not allow Liverpool fans with tickets to other areas of the ground go there, they were directed (and in some cases told in no uncertain terms) to the Leppings Lane end, which made the amount of Liverpool fans at that end even greater. Add to that the delays from the rail and road works for fans with tickets (which the police would know about) and it was inevitable that a large amount of fans would be trying to get into the ground late.

 

By opening the gate and not ensuring that the fans went into the empty pens the police allowed this disaster to happen. Add to that the police not opening the gates at the front of the pens when fans were being crushed to death, not allowing ambulances into the ground to assist the injured, and standing like pricks at a wedding when fans were trying to save each other then its obvious where the blame lies.

 

 

don't try to wriggle out of it. i've already stated numerous times that i don't think they were ALL ticketless and as for drunk you may aswell have asked if i thought they were all one legged lesbians carrying orchids in havasacks.

 

 

yes i agree the police should have policed it better and f***ed up massivly all round but you are trying to blame the police for not stopping people doing stuff they shouldn't without casting any thought to those people themselves. (yes the police should take the blame if there is enough evidence to catch  and shoplifter but they dont,but lets blame the shoplifter aswell).

 

take even a couple of hundred away from the gate and i'll guess the police wouldn't have opened that gate.

 

I am not trying to wriggle out of anything. Surely if the Taylor report was biased it would have found that the fans were to blame and not the police? As it was the police f***ed up. They would have known prior to the game that there would have been some ticketless fans trying to get in (seeing that it was common knowledge that football fans of a lot of clubs did this, not just Liverpool). They had the opportunity to prevent fans from getting into or even close to the ground if they didn't have tickets. They also directed fans with tickets for other parts of the ground into the Leppings Lane end, which they would have known would increase congestion around that part of the ground (as its not rocket science to realise that if fans are not in the part of the ground that they have tickets for but in another part, that second part will become overcrowded). They opened the gates because a crowd built up, partly caused by the road and train delays (which the police knew about). Do you think that the fans would have crowded into the pens had they known that they would crush their fellow fans to death? The police should have made them go into the side pens (and they could have easily done that had they used a bit of common sense). Blaming the Liverpool fans for this disaster is just wrong, ok there might have been some ticketless fans, but it was bad policing that caused this to happen and nothing more.

so you are blaming the police (quite rightly) for not stopping people doing things they shouldn't without according the slightest blame to those people. (if ever i'm in the dock i want you inthe jury).

 

do you think the situation would have been the same if the numbers at the gate were smaller ?

 

do you think none of those ticketless fans were in that crowd attempting to gain access to the ground illegally ?

 

 

[Guest toonlass]

That's like saying that someone must be guilty of an alleged crime despite their being no evidence to prove it because they have a criminal history. You have to look at the facts on the day, not previous events.

the facts were there were ticketless fans there, there was a push on the gate to get in,liverpool fans have a long history of doing this throughout europe,the police f***ed upin controlling it.

 

if you want to believe that those ticketless fans made no attempt to gain illegal access to the ground then that is up t you.

 

And those fans outside the ground, they were all ticketless and drunk eh? These weren't fans with tickets who had been held up in the roadworks and rail problems? The police could have had the kickoff delayed for half an hour and let the fans in the ground in an orderly way. The police f***ed up, they opened a gate and they failed to direct the fans into the empty pens.

where do i say all ?

 

what i am saying is a sizeable ammount enough to tip the balance between the police opening the gate and not.

 

I am not saying you said anything, I am asking you two questions.

 

And had the police done their job and POLICED outside the ground then there wouldn't have been a need to open the gate. I am sure they had intelligence on Liverpool fans and knew about their behaviour. The police also did not allow Liverpool fans with tickets to other areas of the ground go there, they were directed (and in some cases told in no uncertain terms) to the Leppings Lane end, which made the amount of Liverpool fans at that end even greater. Add to that the delays from the rail and road works for fans with tickets (which the police would know about) and it was inevitable that a large amount of fans would be trying to get into the ground late.

 

By opening the gate and not ensuring that the fans went into the empty pens the police allowed this disaster to happen. Add to that the police not opening the gates at the front of the pens when fans were being crushed to death, not allowing ambulances into the ground to assist the injured, and standing like pricks at a wedding when fans were trying to save each other then its obvious where the blame lies.

 

 

don't try to wriggle out of it. i've already stated numerous times that i don't think they were ALL ticketless and as for drunk you may aswell have asked if i thought they were all one legged lesbians carrying orchids in havasacks.

 

 

yes i agree the police should have policed it better and f***ed up massivly all round but you are trying to blame the police for not stopping people doing stuff they shouldn't without casting any thought to those people themselves. (yes the police should take the blame if there is enough evidence to catch  and shoplifter but they dont,but lets blame the shoplifter aswell).

 

take even a couple of hundred away from the gate and i'll guess the police wouldn't have opened that gate.

 

I am not trying to wriggle out of anything. Surely if the Taylor report was biased it would have found that the fans were to blame and not the police? As it was the police f***ed up. They would have known prior to the game that there would have been some ticketless fans trying to get in (seeing that it was common knowledge that football fans of a lot of clubs did this, not just Liverpool). They had the opportunity to prevent fans from getting into or even close to the ground if they didn't have tickets. They also directed fans with tickets for other parts of the ground into the Leppings Lane end, which they would have known would increase congestion around that part of the ground (as its not rocket science to realise that if fans are not in the part of the ground that they have tickets for but in another part, that second part will become overcrowded). They opened the gates because a crowd built up, partly caused by the road and train delays (which the police knew about). Do you think that the fans would have crowded into the pens had they known that they would crush their fellow fans to death? The police should have made them go into the side pens (and they could have easily done that had they used a bit of common sense). Blaming the Liverpool fans for this disaster is just wrong, ok there might have been some ticketless fans, but it was bad policing that caused this to happen and nothing more.

so you are blaming the police (quite rightly) for not stopping people doing things they shouldn't without according the slightest blame to those people. (if ever i'm in the dock i want you inthe jury).

 

do you think the situation would have been the same if the numbers at the gate were smaller ?

 

do you think none of those ticketless fans were in that crowd attempting to gain access to the ground illegally ?

 

 

 

I think that the situation would have been different had the police stopped those trying to get into the ground illegally before they got to the turnstiles. I think it would have been a different situation had the police not forced fans who had tickets in other parts of the ground to go to the Leppings Lane end. I also think the situation would have been different had the police delayed the kick-off by half and hour and communicated that to the fans outside the ground. I do believe that some of the fans were trying to get into the ground illegally, BUT the police should have POLICED the situations that were occurring outside the ground and not allowed it to get to the point where they had to open the gate. You are forgetting that the police would have intelligence about the football fans and would have known that there would be fans without tickets, it wouldn't be a surprise, but they failed to police the event properly and the Liverpool fans cannot be blamed for that. The police obviously were not as concerned about fans getting into the ground illegally and the implications of the overcrowding as they sent fans with tickets for other areas of the ground up to the Leppings Lane end, putting fans safety at risk by that action alone.

[madras]

That's like saying that someone must be guilty of an alleged crime despite their being no evidence to prove it because they have a criminal history. You have to look at the facts on the day, not previous events.

the facts were there were ticketless fans there, there was a push on the gate to get in,liverpool fans have a long history of doing this throughout europe,the police f***ed upin controlling it.

 

if you want to believe that those ticketless fans made no attempt to gain illegal access to the ground then that is up t you.

 

And those fans outside the ground, they were all ticketless and drunk eh? These weren't fans with tickets who had been held up in the roadworks and rail problems? The police could have had the kickoff delayed for half an hour and let the fans in the ground in an orderly way. The police f***ed up, they opened a gate and they failed to direct the fans into the empty pens.

where do i say all ?

 

what i am saying is a sizeable ammount enough to tip the balance between the police opening the gate and not.

 

I am not saying you said anything, I am asking you two questions.

 

And had the police done their job and POLICED outside the ground then there wouldn't have been a need to open the gate. I am sure they had intelligence on Liverpool fans and knew about their behaviour. The police also did not allow Liverpool fans with tickets to other areas of the ground go there, they were directed (and in some cases told in no uncertain terms) to the Leppings Lane end, which made the amount of Liverpool fans at that end even greater. Add to that the delays from the rail and road works for fans with tickets (which the police would know about) and it was inevitable that a large amount of fans would be trying to get into the ground late.

 

By opening the gate and not ensuring that the fans went into the empty pens the police allowed this disaster to happen. Add to that the police not opening the gates at the front of the pens when fans were being crushed to death, not allowing ambulances into the ground to assist the injured, and standing like pricks at a wedding when fans were trying to save each other then its obvious where the blame lies.

 

 

don't try to wriggle out of it. i've already stated numerous times that i don't think they were ALL ticketless and as for drunk you may aswell have asked if i thought they were all one legged lesbians carrying orchids in havasacks.

 

 

yes i agree the police should have policed it better and f***ed up massivly all round but you are trying to blame the police for not stopping people doing stuff they shouldn't without casting any thought to those people themselves. (yes the police should take the blame if there is enough evidence to catch  and shoplifter but they dont,but lets blame the shoplifter aswell).

 

take even a couple of hundred away from the gate and i'll guess the police wouldn't have opened that gate.

 

I am not trying to wriggle out of anything. Surely if the Taylor report was biased it would have found that the fans were to blame and not the police? As it was the police f***ed up. They would have known prior to the game that there would have been some ticketless fans trying to get in (seeing that it was common knowledge that football fans of a lot of clubs did this, not just Liverpool). They had the opportunity to prevent fans from getting into or even close to the ground if they didn't have tickets. They also directed fans with tickets for other parts of the ground into the Leppings Lane end, which they would have known would increase congestion around that part of the ground (as its not rocket science to realise that if fans are not in the part of the ground that they have tickets for but in another part, that second part will become overcrowded). They opened the gates because a crowd built up, partly caused by the road and train delays (which the police knew about). Do you think that the fans would have crowded into the pens had they known that they would crush their fellow fans to death? The police should have made them go into the side pens (and they could have easily done that had they used a bit of common sense). Blaming the Liverpool fans for this disaster is just wrong, ok there might have been some ticketless fans, but it was bad policing that caused this to happen and nothing more.

so you are blaming the police (quite rightly) for not stopping people doing things they shouldn't without according the slightest blame to those people. (if ever i'm in the dock i want you inthe jury).

 

do you think the situation would have been the same if the numbers at the gate were smaller ?

 

do you think none of those ticketless fans were in that crowd attempting to gain access to the ground illegally ?

 

 

 

I think that the situation would have been different had the police stopped those trying to get into the ground illegally before they got to the turnstiles. I think it would have been a different situation had the police not forced fans who had tickets in other parts of the ground to go to the Leppings Lane end. I also think the situation would have been different had the police delayed the kick-off by half and hour and communicated that to the fans outside the ground. I do believe that some of the fans were trying to get into the ground illegally, BUT the police should have POLICED the situations that were occurring outside the ground and not allowed it to get to the point where they had to open the gate. You are forgetting that the police would have intelligence about the football fans and would have known that there would be fans without tickets, it wouldn't be a surprise, but they failed to police the event properly and the Liverpool fans cannot be blamed for that. The police obviously were not as concerned about fans getting into the ground illegally and the implications of the overcrowding as they sent fans with tickets for other areas of the ground up to the Leppings Lane end, putting fans safety at risk by that action alone.

i agree but they didn't and they fucked up massivly. how many times do i have to say this ? but it only strengthens my shoplifter analogy.

 

 

[Guest toonlass]

That's like saying that someone must be guilty of an alleged crime despite their being no evidence to prove it because they have a criminal history. You have to look at the facts on the day, not previous events.

the facts were there were ticketless fans there, there was a push on the gate to get in,liverpool fans have a long history of doing this throughout europe,the police f***ed upin controlling it.

 

if you want to believe that those ticketless fans made no attempt to gain illegal access to the ground then that is up t you.

 

And those fans outside the ground, they were all ticketless and drunk eh? These weren't fans with tickets who had been held up in the roadworks and rail problems? The police could have had the kickoff delayed for half an hour and let the fans in the ground in an orderly way. The police f***ed up, they opened a gate and they failed to direct the fans into the empty pens.

where do i say all ?

 

what i am saying is a sizeable ammount enough to tip the balance between the police opening the gate and not.

 

I am not saying you said anything, I am asking you two questions.

 

And had the police done their job and POLICED outside the ground then there wouldn't have been a need to open the gate. I am sure they had intelligence on Liverpool fans and knew about their behaviour. The police also did not allow Liverpool fans with tickets to other areas of the ground go there, they were directed (and in some cases told in no uncertain terms) to the Leppings Lane end, which made the amount of Liverpool fans at that end even greater. Add to that the delays from the rail and road works for fans with tickets (which the police would know about) and it was inevitable that a large amount of fans would be trying to get into the ground late.

 

By opening the gate and not ensuring that the fans went into the empty pens the police allowed this disaster to happen. Add to that the police not opening the gates at the front of the pens when fans were being crushed to death, not allowing ambulances into the ground to assist the injured, and standing like pricks at a wedding when fans were trying to save each other then its obvious where the blame lies.

 

 

don't try to wriggle out of it. i've already stated numerous times that i don't think they were ALL ticketless and as for drunk you may aswell have asked if i thought they were all one legged lesbians carrying orchids in havasacks.

 

 

yes i agree the police should have policed it better and f***ed up massivly all round but you are trying to blame the police for not stopping people doing stuff they shouldn't without casting any thought to those people themselves. (yes the police should take the blame if there is enough evidence to catch  and shoplifter but they dont,but lets blame the shoplifter aswell).

 

take even a couple of hundred away from the gate and i'll guess the police wouldn't have opened that gate.

 

I am not trying to wriggle out of anything. Surely if the Taylor report was biased it would have found that the fans were to blame and not the police? As it was the police f***ed up. They would have known prior to the game that there would have been some ticketless fans trying to get in (seeing that it was common knowledge that football fans of a lot of clubs did this, not just Liverpool). They had the opportunity to prevent fans from getting into or even close to the ground if they didn't have tickets. They also directed fans with tickets for other parts of the ground into the Leppings Lane end, which they would have known would increase congestion around that part of the ground (as its not rocket science to realise that if fans are not in the part of the ground that they have tickets for but in another part, that second part will become overcrowded). They opened the gates because a crowd built up, partly caused by the road and train delays (which the police knew about). Do you think that the fans would have crowded into the pens had they known that they would crush their fellow fans to death? The police should have made them go into the side pens (and they could have easily done that had they used a bit of common sense). Blaming the Liverpool fans for this disaster is just wrong, ok there might have been some ticketless fans, but it was bad policing that caused this to happen and nothing more.

so you are blaming the police (quite rightly) for not stopping people doing things they shouldn't without according the slightest blame to those people. (if ever i'm in the dock i want you inthe jury).

 

do you think the situation would have been the same if the numbers at the gate were smaller ?

 

do you think none of those ticketless fans were in that crowd attempting to gain access to the ground illegally ?

 

 

 

I think that the situation would have been different had the police stopped those trying to get into the ground illegally before they got to the turnstiles. I think it would have been a different situation had the police not forced fans who had tickets in other parts of the ground to go to the Leppings Lane end. I also think the situation would have been different had the police delayed the kick-off by half and hour and communicated that to the fans outside the ground. I do believe that some of the fans were trying to get into the ground illegally, BUT the police should have POLICED the situations that were occurring outside the ground and not allowed it to get to the point where they had to open the gate. You are forgetting that the police would have intelligence about the football fans and would have known that there would be fans without tickets, it wouldn't be a surprise, but they failed to police the event properly and the Liverpool fans cannot be blamed for that. The police obviously were not as concerned about fans getting into the ground illegally and the implications of the overcrowding as they sent fans with tickets for other areas of the ground up to the Leppings Lane end, putting fans safety at risk by that action alone.

i agree but they didn't and they fucked up massivly. how many times do i have to say this ? but it only strengthens my shoplifter analogy.

 

 

 

Only to yourself. Comparing this and an incident of shoplifting is frankly appauling. 96 people died as a direct result of the police incompetance, many others have killed themselves or have lived for nearly 20 years with the nightmare of Hillsborough still there. Believe what you want to Madras, but to blame the fans for this is, in my opinion very wrong.

[nobby_solano]

are the fans being blamed purely because it's not newcastle united fans? 

[madras]

are the fans being blamed purely because it's not newcastle united fans? 

no. a small proportion of their fans a getting a portion of the blame.

 

for what it's worth i have seen nufc fans do similar but on a much smaller scale than i've seen liverpool fans do it.

[madras]

That's like saying that someone must be guilty of an alleged crime despite their being no evidence to prove it because they have a criminal history. You have to look at the facts on the day, not previous events.

the facts were there were ticketless fans there, there was a push on the gate to get in,liverpool fans have a long history of doing this throughout europe,the police f***ed upin controlling it.

 

if you want to believe that those ticketless fans made no attempt to gain illegal access to the ground then that is up t you.

 

And those fans outside the ground, they were all ticketless and drunk eh? These weren't fans with tickets who had been held up in the roadworks and rail problems? The police could have had the kickoff delayed for half an hour and let the fans in the ground in an orderly way. The police f***ed up, they opened a gate and they failed to direct the fans into the empty pens.

where do i say all ?

 

what i am saying is a sizeable ammount enough to tip the balance between the police opening the gate and not.

 

I am not saying you said anything, I am asking you two questions.

 

And had the police done their job and POLICED outside the ground then there wouldn't have been a need to open the gate. I am sure they had intelligence on Liverpool fans and knew about their behaviour. The police also did not allow Liverpool fans with tickets to other areas of the ground go there, they were directed (and in some cases told in no uncertain terms) to the Leppings Lane end, which made the amount of Liverpool fans at that end even greater. Add to that the delays from the rail and road works for fans with tickets (which the police would know about) and it was inevitable that a large amount of fans would be trying to get into the ground late.

 

By opening the gate and not ensuring that the fans went into the empty pens the police allowed this disaster to happen. Add to that the police not opening the gates at the front of the pens when fans were being crushed to death, not allowing ambulances into the ground to assist the injured, and standing like pricks at a wedding when fans were trying to save each other then its obvious where the blame lies.

 

 

don't try to wriggle out of it. i've already stated numerous times that i don't think they were ALL ticketless and as for drunk you may aswell have asked if i thought they were all one legged lesbians carrying orchids in havasacks.

 

 

yes i agree the police should have policed it better and f***ed up massivly all round but you are trying to blame the police for not stopping people doing stuff they shouldn't without casting any thought to those people themselves. (yes the police should take the blame if there is enough evidence to catch  and shoplifter but they dont,but lets blame the shoplifter aswell).

 

take even a couple of hundred away from the gate and i'll guess the police wouldn't have opened that gate.

 

I am not trying to wriggle out of anything. Surely if the Taylor report was biased it would have found that the fans were to blame and not the police? As it was the police f***ed up. They would have known prior to the game that there would have been some ticketless fans trying to get in (seeing that it was common knowledge that football fans of a lot of clubs did this, not just Liverpool). They had the opportunity to prevent fans from getting into or even close to the ground if they didn't have tickets. They also directed fans with tickets for other parts of the ground into the Leppings Lane end, which they would have known would increase congestion around that part of the ground (as its not rocket science to realise that if fans are not in the part of the ground that they have tickets for but in another part, that second part will become overcrowded). They opened the gates because a crowd built up, partly caused by the road and train delays (which the police knew about). Do you think that the fans would have crowded into the pens had they known that they would crush their fellow fans to death? The police should have made them go into the side pens (and they could have easily done that had they used a bit of common sense). Blaming the Liverpool fans for this disaster is just wrong, ok there might have been some ticketless fans, but it was bad policing that caused this to happen and nothing more.

so you are blaming the police (quite rightly) for not stopping people doing things they shouldn't without according the slightest blame to those people. (if ever i'm in the dock i want you inthe jury).

 

do you think the situation would have been the same if the numbers at the gate were smaller ?

 

do you think none of those ticketless fans were in that crowd attempting to gain access to the ground illegally ?

 

 

 

I think that the situation would have been different had the police stopped those trying to get into the ground illegally before they got to the turnstiles. I think it would have been a different situation had the police not forced fans who had tickets in other parts of the ground to go to the Leppings Lane end. I also think the situation would have been different had the police delayed the kick-off by half and hour and communicated that to the fans outside the ground. I do believe that some of the fans were trying to get into the ground illegally, BUT the police should have POLICED the situations that were occurring outside the ground and not allowed it to get to the point where they had to open the gate. You are forgetting that the police would have intelligence about the football fans and would have known that there would be fans without tickets, it wouldn't be a surprise, but they failed to police the event properly and the Liverpool fans cannot be blamed for that. The police obviously were not as concerned about fans getting into the ground illegally and the implications of the overcrowding as they sent fans with tickets for other areas of the ground up to the Leppings Lane end, putting fans safety at risk by that action alone.

i agree but they didn't and they f***ed up massivly. how many times do i have to say this ? but it only strengthens my shoplifter analogy.

 

 

 

Only to yourself. Comparing this and an incident of shoplifting is frankly appauling. 96 people died as a direct result of the police incompetance, many others have killed themselves or have lived for nearly 20 years with the nightmare of Hillsborough still there. Believe what you want to Madras, but to blame the fans for this is, in my opinion very wrong.

you can change it from shoplifting to whatever crime you want....you are putting all the blame on the police for not stopping people committing a crime whislt letting those committing the crime off scot free . like i say if i'm in the dock i want you in the jury.

[Guest toonlass]

That's like saying that someone must be guilty of an alleged crime despite their being no evidence to prove it because they have a criminal history. You have to look at the facts on the day, not previous events.

the facts were there were ticketless fans there, there was a push on the gate to get in,liverpool fans have a long history of doing this throughout europe,the police f***ed upin controlling it.

 

if you want to believe that those ticketless fans made no attempt to gain illegal access to the ground then that is up t you.

 

And those fans outside the ground, they were all ticketless and drunk eh? These weren't fans with tickets who had been held up in the roadworks and rail problems? The police could have had the kickoff delayed for half an hour and let the fans in the ground in an orderly way. The police f***ed up, they opened a gate and they failed to direct the fans into the empty pens.

where do i say all ?

 

what i am saying is a sizeable ammount enough to tip the balance between the police opening the gate and not.

 

I am not saying you said anything, I am asking you two questions.

 

And had the police done their job and POLICED outside the ground then there wouldn't have been a need to open the gate. I am sure they had intelligence on Liverpool fans and knew about their behaviour. The police also did not allow Liverpool fans with tickets to other areas of the ground go there, they were directed (and in some cases told in no uncertain terms) to the Leppings Lane end, which made the amount of Liverpool fans at that end even greater. Add to that the delays from the rail and road works for fans with tickets (which the police would know about) and it was inevitable that a large amount of fans would be trying to get into the ground late.

 

By opening the gate and not ensuring that the fans went into the empty pens the police allowed this disaster to happen. Add to that the police not opening the gates at the front of the pens when fans were being crushed to death, not allowing ambulances into the ground to assist the injured, and standing like pricks at a wedding when fans were trying to save each other then its obvious where the blame lies.

 

 

don't try to wriggle out of it. i've already stated numerous times that i don't think they were ALL ticketless and as for drunk you may aswell have asked if i thought they were all one legged lesbians carrying orchids in havasacks.

 

 

yes i agree the police should have policed it better and f***ed up massivly all round but you are trying to blame the police for not stopping people doing stuff they shouldn't without casting any thought to those people themselves. (yes the police should take the blame if there is enough evidence to catch  and shoplifter but they dont,but lets blame the shoplifter aswell).

 

take even a couple of hundred away from the gate and i'll guess the police wouldn't have opened that gate.

 

I am not trying to wriggle out of anything. Surely if the Taylor report was biased it would have found that the fans were to blame and not the police? As it was the police f***ed up. They would have known prior to the game that there would have been some ticketless fans trying to get in (seeing that it was common knowledge that football fans of a lot of clubs did this, not just Liverpool). They had the opportunity to prevent fans from getting into or even close to the ground if they didn't have tickets. They also directed fans with tickets for other parts of the ground into the Leppings Lane end, which they would have known would increase congestion around that part of the ground (as its not rocket science to realise that if fans are not in the part of the ground that they have tickets for but in another part, that second part will become overcrowded). They opened the gates because a crowd built up, partly caused by the road and train delays (which the police knew about). Do you think that the fans would have crowded into the pens had they known that they would crush their fellow fans to death? The police should have made them go into the side pens (and they could have easily done that had they used a bit of common sense). Blaming the Liverpool fans for this disaster is just wrong, ok there might have been some ticketless fans, but it was bad policing that caused this to happen and nothing more.

so you are blaming the police (quite rightly) for not stopping people doing things they shouldn't without according the slightest blame to those people. (if ever i'm in the dock i want you inthe jury).

 

do you think the situation would have been the same if the numbers at the gate were smaller ?

 

do you think none of those ticketless fans were in that crowd attempting to gain access to the ground illegally ?

 

 

 

I think that the situation would have been different had the police stopped those trying to get into the ground illegally before they got to the turnstiles. I think it would have been a different situation had the police not forced fans who had tickets in other parts of the ground to go to the Leppings Lane end. I also think the situation would have been different had the police delayed the kick-off by half and hour and communicated that to the fans outside the ground. I do believe that some of the fans were trying to get into the ground illegally, BUT the police should have POLICED the situations that were occurring outside the ground and not allowed it to get to the point where they had to open the gate. You are forgetting that the police would have intelligence about the football fans and would have known that there would be fans without tickets, it wouldn't be a surprise, but they failed to police the event properly and the Liverpool fans cannot be blamed for that. The police obviously were not as concerned about fans getting into the ground illegally and the implications of the overcrowding as they sent fans with tickets for other areas of the ground up to the Leppings Lane end, putting fans safety at risk by that action alone.

i agree but they didn't and they f***ed up massivly. how many times do i have to say this ? but it only strengthens my shoplifter analogy.

 

 

 

Only to yourself. Comparing this and an incident of shoplifting is frankly appauling. 96 people died as a direct result of the police incompetance, many others have killed themselves or have lived for nearly 20 years with the nightmare of Hillsborough still there. Believe what you want to Madras, but to blame the fans for this is, in my opinion very wrong.

you can change it from shoplifting to whatever crime you want....you are putting all the blame on the police for not stopping people committing a crime whislt letting those committing the crime off scot free . like i say if i'm in the dock i want you in the jury.

 

Would you be saying the same thing if the crush at Spurs had killed 96 of our lads? I doubt it (although you will probably come over all diplomatic and say "Oh yes I would" when we know you wouldn't have).  Oh bollocks it, I am not arguing with you anymore. Have some respect for the people who died, decent lads, lasses and kids who were already in the ground when the crush started.

[madras]

That's like saying that someone must be guilty of an alleged crime despite their being no evidence to prove it because they have a criminal history. You have to look at the facts on the day, not previous events.

the facts were there were ticketless fans there, there was a push on the gate to get in,liverpool fans have a long history of doing this throughout europe,the police f***ed upin controlling it.

 

if you want to believe that those ticketless fans made no attempt to gain illegal access to the ground then that is up t you.

 

And those fans outside the ground, they were all ticketless and drunk eh? These weren't fans with tickets who had been held up in the roadworks and rail problems? The police could have had the kickoff delayed for half an hour and let the fans in the ground in an orderly way. The police f***ed up, they opened a gate and they failed to direct the fans into the empty pens.

where do i say all ?

 

what i am saying is a sizeable ammount enough to tip the balance between the police opening the gate and not.

 

I am not saying you said anything, I am asking you two questions.

 

And had the police done their job and POLICED outside the ground then there wouldn't have been a need to open the gate. I am sure they had intelligence on Liverpool fans and knew about their behaviour. The police also did not allow Liverpool fans with tickets to other areas of the ground go there, they were directed (and in some cases told in no uncertain terms) to the Leppings Lane end, which made the amount of Liverpool fans at that end even greater. Add to that the delays from the rail and road works for fans with tickets (which the police would know about) and it was inevitable that a large amount of fans would be trying to get into the ground late.

 

By opening the gate and not ensuring that the fans went into the empty pens the police allowed this disaster to happen. Add to that the police not opening the gates at the front of the pens when fans were being crushed to death, not allowing ambulances into the ground to assist the injured, and standing like pricks at a wedding when fans were trying to save each other then its obvious where the blame lies.

 

 

don't try to wriggle out of it. i've already stated numerous times that i don't think they were ALL ticketless and as for drunk you may aswell have asked if i thought they were all one legged lesbians carrying orchids in havasacks.

 

 

yes i agree the police should have policed it better and f***ed up massivly all round but you are trying to blame the police for not stopping people doing stuff they shouldn't without casting any thought to those people themselves. (yes the police should take the blame if there is enough evidence to catch  and shoplifter but they dont,but lets blame the shoplifter aswell).

 

take even a couple of hundred away from the gate and i'll guess the police wouldn't have opened that gate.

 

I am not trying to wriggle out of anything. Surely if the Taylor report was biased it would have found that the fans were to blame and not the police? As it was the police f***ed up. They would have known prior to the game that there would have been some ticketless fans trying to get in (seeing that it was common knowledge that football fans of a lot of clubs did this, not just Liverpool). They had the opportunity to prevent fans from getting into or even close to the ground if they didn't have tickets. They also directed fans with tickets for other parts of the ground into the Leppings Lane end, which they would have known would increase congestion around that part of the ground (as its not rocket science to realise that if fans are not in the part of the ground that they have tickets for but in another part, that second part will become overcrowded). They opened the gates because a crowd built up, partly caused by the road and train delays (which the police knew about). Do you think that the fans would have crowded into the pens had they known that they would crush their fellow fans to death? The police should have made them go into the side pens (and they could have easily done that had they used a bit of common sense). Blaming the Liverpool fans for this disaster is just wrong, ok there might have been some ticketless fans, but it was bad policing that caused this to happen and nothing more.

so you are blaming the police (quite rightly) for not stopping people doing things they shouldn't without according the slightest blame to those people. (if ever i'm in the dock i want you inthe jury).

 

do you think the situation would have been the same if the numbers at the gate were smaller ?

 

do you think none of those ticketless fans were in that crowd attempting to gain access to the ground illegally ?

 

 

 

I think that the situation would have been different had the police stopped those trying to get into the ground illegally before they got to the turnstiles. I think it would have been a different situation had the police not forced fans who had tickets in other parts of the ground to go to the Leppings Lane end. I also think the situation would have been different had the police delayed the kick-off by half and hour and communicated that to the fans outside the ground. I do believe that some of the fans were trying to get into the ground illegally, BUT the police should have POLICED the situations that were occurring outside the ground and not allowed it to get to the point where they had to open the gate. You are forgetting that the police would have intelligence about the football fans and would have known that there would be fans without tickets, it wouldn't be a surprise, but they failed to police the event properly and the Liverpool fans cannot be blamed for that. The police obviously were not as concerned about fans getting into the ground illegally and the implications of the overcrowding as they sent fans with tickets for other areas of the ground up to the Leppings Lane end, putting fans safety at risk by that action alone.

i agree but they didn't and they f***ed up massivly. how many times do i have to say this ? but it only strengthens my shoplifter analogy.

 

 

 

Only to yourself. Comparing this and an incident of shoplifting is frankly appauling. 96 people died as a direct result of the police incompetance, many others have killed themselves or have lived for nearly 20 years with the nightmare of Hillsborough still there. Believe what you want to Madras, but to blame the fans for this is, in my opinion very wrong.

you can change it from shoplifting to whatever crime you want....you are putting all the blame on the police for not stopping people committing a crime whislt letting those committing the crime off scot free . like i say if i'm in the dock i want you in the jury.

 

Would you be saying the same thing if the crush at Spurs had killed 96 of our lads? I doubt it (although you will probably come over all diplomatic and say "Oh yes I would" when we know you wouldn't have).  Oh bollocks it, I am not arguing with you anymore. Have some respect for the people who died, decent lads, lasses and kids who were already in the ground when the crush started.

different as one was all ticket and one wasn't although the police made very similar mistakes.

 

and i was there by the way.

[magpie418]

 

do you think the situation would have been the same if the numbers at the gate were smaller ?

 

do you think none of those ticketless fans were in that crowd attempting to gain access to the ground illegally ?

 

The Leppings Lane end was sold out correct? the whole of that end was yet to be filled with Liverpool fans, there were sections that were only partly filled, and the centre section were everyone went first was already full, right?

 

Now outside the ground you have all the other fans with tickets for the Liverpool end (including all those delayed), all the Liverpool fans who had been sent to that end of the ground from the other ends (there were probably already some of these fans in the Leppings Lane end). And the ticketless fans (however many this may of been).

 

Instead of delaying the kick-off to filter these fans into the ground, the decision is made to not only open the gates to let everyone in (who are all going to obviously rush in so as not to miss kick off, itself a H&S issue, the police's second mistake is to not filter these fans into the sections that had less fans, instead letting all these fans into an already full area).

 

And if that wasn't bad enough, they then failed to do anything about the carnage that ensued, when they were needed most.

 

 

[madras]

 

do you think the situation would have been the same if the numbers at the gate were smaller ?

 

do you think none of those ticketless fans were in that crowd attempting to gain access to the ground illegally ?

 

The Leppings Lane end was sold out correct? the whole of that end was yet to be filled with Liverpool fans, there were sections that were only partly filled, and the centre section were everyone went first was already full, right?

 

Now outside the ground you have all the other fans with tickets for the Liverpool end (including all those delayed), all the Liverpool fans who had been sent to that end of the ground from the other ends (there were probably already some of these fans in the Leppings Lane end). And the ticketless fans (however many this may of been).

 

Instead of delaying the kick-off to filter these fans into the ground, the decision is made to not only open the gates to let everyone in (who are all going to obviously rush in so as not to miss kick off, itself a H&S issue, the police's second mistake is to not filter these fans into the sections that had less fans, instead letting all these fans into an already full area).

 

And if that wasn't bad enough, they then failed to do anything about the carnage that ensued, when they were needed most.

 

 

i've never disagreed with any of that.

 

just for anybody looking in i have said all along the police made massive fuck ups that day and deserve most of the blame.

[Guest toonlass]

 

do you think the situation would have been the same if the numbers at the gate were smaller ?

 

do you think none of those ticketless fans were in that crowd attempting to gain access to the ground illegally ?

 

The Leppings Lane end was sold out correct? the whole of that end was yet to be filled with Liverpool fans, there were sections that were only partly filled, and the centre section were everyone went first was already full, right?

 

Now outside the ground you have all the other fans with tickets for the Liverpool end (including all those delayed), all the Liverpool fans who had been sent to that end of the ground from the other ends (there were probably already some of these fans in the Leppings Lane end). And the ticketless fans (however many this may of been).

 

Instead of delaying the kick-off to filter these fans into the ground, the decision is made to not only open the gates to let everyone in (who are all going to obviously rush in so as not to miss kick off, itself a H&S issue, the police's second mistake is to not filter these fans into the sections that had less fans, instead letting all these fans into an already full area).

 

And if that wasn't bad enough, they then failed to do anything about the carnage that ensued, when they were needed most.

 

 

 

Not worth you posting that Magpie418. Despite it being common sense, and despite Lord Justice Taylor reporting that the Liverpool fans were not at fault Madras knows better.

[madras]

 

do you think the situation would have been the same if the numbers at the gate were smaller ?

 

do you think none of those ticketless fans were in that crowd attempting to gain access to the ground illegally ?

 

The Leppings Lane end was sold out correct? the whole of that end was yet to be filled with Liverpool fans, there were sections that were only partly filled, and the centre section were everyone went first was already full, right?

 

Now outside the ground you have all the other fans with tickets for the Liverpool end (including all those delayed), all the Liverpool fans who had been sent to that end of the ground from the other ends (there were probably already some of these fans in the Leppings Lane end). And the ticketless fans (however many this may of been).

 

Instead of delaying the kick-off to filter these fans into the ground, the decision is made to not only open the gates to let everyone in (who are all going to obviously rush in so as not to miss kick off, itself a H&S issue, the police's second mistake is to not filter these fans into the sections that had less fans, instead letting all these fans into an already full area).

 

And if that wasn't bad enough, they then failed to do anything about the carnage that ensued, when they were needed most.

 

 

 

Not worth you posting that Magpie418. Despite it being common sense, and despite Lord Justice Taylor reporting that the Liverpool fans were not at fault Madras knows better.

pleased you are coming round eventually

[Guest toonlass]

 

do you think the situation would have been the same if the numbers at the gate were smaller ?

 

do you think none of those ticketless fans were in that crowd attempting to gain access to the ground illegally ?

 

The Leppings Lane end was sold out correct? the whole of that end was yet to be filled with Liverpool fans, there were sections that were only partly filled, and the centre section were everyone went first was already full, right?

 

Now outside the ground you have all the other fans with tickets for the Liverpool end (including all those delayed), all the Liverpool fans who had been sent to that end of the ground from the other ends (there were probably already some of these fans in the Leppings Lane end). And the ticketless fans (however many this may of been).

 

Instead of delaying the kick-off to filter these fans into the ground, the decision is made to not only open the gates to let everyone in (who are all going to obviously rush in so as not to miss kick off, itself a H&S issue, the police's second mistake is to not filter these fans into the sections that had less fans, instead letting all these fans into an already full area).

 

And if that wasn't bad enough, they then failed to do anything about the carnage that ensued, when they were needed most.

 

 

 

Not worth you posting that Magpie418. Despite it being common sense, and despite Lord Justice Taylor reporting that the Liverpool fans were not at fault Madras knows better.

pleased you are coming round eventually

 

Fuck off, your attitude makes me feel sick tbh. Shame you cannot recognise sarcasm.

 

Show some respect man.