mrmojorisin75 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Being serious and back on topic, I would suggest that people have a read of the times article posted by nsl above, including the comments. http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/2009/03/how-should-foot.html the comments are worthless, one man spouts an untruth and gets shot down Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 On a day when twenty fans have died due to crushing in the Ivory Coast it is time to give all who have died in such disasters a dignified remembrance. That is to mourn quietly. To celebrate life equally. To not involve the media. To do otherwise leaves one open to exploiting tragic loss of life. Look at how we remember the Ibrox Disaster. Look at how Bradford City reflect upon their awful fire. Observe how F.C. Torino act as a club when remembering the air disaster that wiped out arguably the greatest team ever in Italian history. Quiet dignity. No raking over smouldering coals. Simple services mourning loss. Fingers could be pointed, but through media mud-slinging? Is that the way to remember loss of life? There is a time and a place to challenge authorities. There is a manner in which to do it too. There is a danger that constantly bringing Hillsborough - and indeed Munich - into the wider public eye is counter-productive. It makes the clubs involved look as though they have a "monopoly" on the tragedies of sporting life. It makes it look as though each club is exploiting the "romance" of disaster and morphing it into part of their "brand". A way of winning over new fans, if you will. The more one sees mourning at certain clubs turn into five-yearly media events the more one feels the need to switch off. One can't help but feel that to some, a life at Hillsborough was somehow more special than a life at Ibrox or Valley Parade. A dead player at Munich far more special than a dead player from Torino. I hope that those who died in the Ivory Coast did not suffer. I wish them an everlasting peace and hope that their deaths are remembered with dignity, free from any sense of media exploitation. Deep down I know I need rest easy. Knowing how things work, I'm very sure that these African souls will be long, long forgotten when the media circus of Hillsborough's fiftieth anniversary rolls into view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Being serious and back on topic, I would suggest that people have a read of the times article posted by nsl above, including the comments. http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/2009/03/how-should-foot.html the comments are worthless, one man spouts an untruth and gets shot down exactly. proliferating lies leads too what? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 munich disaster occurred to me a lot earlier in this thread; imagine the same thing with the great liverpool team(s) of the 70's/80's - whichever airline was involved would be buried in complaints and litigation to this day... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Being serious and back on topic, I would suggest that people have a read of the times article posted by nsl above, including the comments. http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/2009/03/how-should-foot.html the comments are worthless, one man spouts an untruth and gets shot down exactly. proliferating lies leads too what? leads to being shot down on the times message board, basically Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 did the police force fans to push against the turnstiles/gates ? if ticketless fans hadn't been there would there have been less people doing it hence less force ? http://actingschmacting.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/broken-record.jpg The amount of ticketless fans would not have made any difference, you had many coaches of fans turning up late, people arriving late from the pubs and those with tickets for other parts of the ground. Everyone who had tickets and where not yet inside the ground would of been outside that part of the ground. Ticketless fans could of been scattered all over the place, trying to get tickets anywhere else around the ground at this point, they could of been in pubs around the ground, it would of been no different than any other game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 leads to being shot down on the times message board, basically So we should just allow the propagation of lies? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 the comments are worthless, one man spouts an untruth and gets shot down So we should just allow the propagation of lies? exactly. proliferating lies leads too what? leads to being shot down on the times message board, basically can you show me where the south yorkshire police (who i can only presume you're talking about as opposed to some shithead on the times) have propagated lies please? someone else alluded to it in this thread and i let it slip but you've raised it again so i want to know now Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 On a day when twenty fans have died due to crushing in the Ivory Coast it is time to give all who have died in such disasters a dignified remembrance. That is to mourn quietly. To celebrate life equally. To not involve the media. To do otherwise leaves one open to exploiting tragic loss of life. Look at how we remember the Ibrox Disaster. Look at how Bradford City reflect upon their awful fire. Observe how F.C. Torino act as a club when remembering the air disaster that wiped out arguably the greatest team ever in Italian history. Quiet dignity. No raking over smouldering coals. Simple services mourning loss. Fingers could be pointed, but through media mud-slinging? Is that the way to remember loss of life? There is a time and a place to challenge authorities. There is a manner in which to do it too. There is a danger that constantly bringing Hillsborough - and indeed Munich - into the wider public eye is counter-productive. It makes the clubs involved look as though they have a "monopoly" on the tragedies of sporting life. It makes it look as though each club is exploiting the "romance" of disaster and morphing it into part of their "brand". A way of winning over new fans, if you will. The more one sees mourning at certain clubs turn into five-yearly media events the more one feels the need to switch off. One can't help but feel that to some, a life at Hillsborough was somehow more special than a life at Ibrox or Valley Parade. A dead player at Munich far more special than a dead player from Torino. I hope that those who died in the Ivory Coast did not suffer. I wish them an everlasting peace and hope that their deaths are remembered with dignity, free from any sense of media exploitation. Deep down I know I need rest easy. Knowing how things work, I'm very sure that these African souls will be long, long forgotten when the media circus of Hillsborough's fiftieth anniversary rolls into view. If only it was that simple eh? There's one big difference, I don't recall police cover-ups and disgusting media involvement in any of those other tragedies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 the comments are worthless, one man spouts an untruth and gets shot down So we should just allow the propagation of lies? exactly. proliferating lies leads too what? leads to being shot down on the times message board, basically can you show me where the south yorkshire police (who i can only presume you're talking about as opposed to some shithead on the times) have propagated lies please? someone else alluded to it in this thread and i let it slip but you've raised it again so i want to know now magpie or toonlass (whoever quotes the taylor report first where the police lied) ask yourself if you believe the word of the liverpool fans who were there that day too Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 can you show me where the south yorkshire police (who i can only presume you're talking about as opposed to some shithead on the times) have propagated lies please? someone else alluded to it in this thread and i let it slip but you've raised it again so i want to know now Sorry, you've lost me. We were talking about the bloke on the comments section who was saying that Liverpool fans were responsible for breaking into the ground. You've now brought the whole South Yorkshire police into it, I don't recall the police ever saying that Liverpool fans smashed their way into the ground, or at least if they did, could you provide me with a link? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 ask yourself if you believe the word of the liverpool fans who were there that day too What the fuck did they have to cover up? Honestly, Fuck this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toonlass Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Mojo, It doesn't come down to believing the police or the fans. The investigation worked out how many people came through the Leppings Lane end. That in itself was not over-capacitated, especially had the fans arrived in streams rather that in one big surge when all the coaches arrived, BUT the fact that the fans were allowed to go straight down the tunnel into pens 3 and 4 when they were at capacity caused the crush in the pens. Had the fans been directed to the side pens then the tragedy could have been avoided. The simple fact of the matter is whether the fans had tickets or not, they were allowed into the already crowded pens by the people policing the event and were not allowed to escape at the front through the doors in the fences. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scouseman Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 the comments are worthless, one man spouts an untruth and gets shot down So we should just allow the propagation of lies? exactly. proliferating lies leads too what? leads to being shot down on the times message board, basically can you show me where the south yorkshire police (who i can only presume you're talking about as opposed to some shithead on the times) have propagated lies please? someone else alluded to it in this thread and i let it slip but you've raised it again so i want to know now magpie or toonlass (whoever quotes the taylor report first where the police lied) ask yourself if you believe the word of the liverpool fans who were there that day too Duckenfield had told his first lie while the tragedy was still happening. Where do you think the Sun got it's lies from over the next few days? You can check all of this out in the Taylor report as the writer of this has. ""Chief Superintendent Duckenfield was the most senior policeman at Hillsborough on the 15th April 1989, the year of the disaster. He had virtually no experience of policing a big match, and was only drafted in a week or so before the match. This was because the police officer that had policed the game the year before, had been suspended after an initiation prank on a new P.C. ended with the new recruit being too traumatised to work. When a police force undertake an operation such as policing a football match, a detailed report is made that describes in minute detail what was done; by whom; at what time and how. This is called an operational order, and policing the match in 1989 should not have been too difficult to police for Duckenfield, as he has a complete, successfully carried out operational order from the year before. Crucially though, the Inspector decided to make changes to this operational order, and this, among other things led to the disaster. His first mistake was that despite his limited experience, he decided that he would go against the wisdom of the officer from the year before and decided that there was no need to have police officers posted at varying distances away from the ground. In 1988, police officers were posted at varying distances to check tickets, give directions, and in the event that too many fans arrived at a certain time, they could stem the flow towards the antiquated turnstiles and relieve the pressure. Without these officers, fans were left to head for the ground unchecked, and after bad motorway traffic, many fans arrived at the Leppings Lane end of the ground between 2pm and 2.30pm, and the turnstiles could not admit people quick enough. In the absence of the outer placed police officers, fans started to congregate around the turnstiles, but they were not able to admit people quick enough and a dangerous crush started to build outside the ground. After being asked several times over the radio by Murray, the most senior policeman outside the ground, Duckenfield next gave the order to open gate C. Gate C is an exit gate, and as such is designed to let thousands of people leave the ground quickly, but used in reverse it was lethal. Even at this stage, by following the previous year’s operation order, Duckenfield could have averted the disaster. In 1988, there were police officers posted at the entrance of each of the central pens (3+4) and once these pens were full, people we re-directed to the pens on the wings. In 1989, no direction was given. Fans were left to go down a tunnel that led them to the central pens, and once they were there the weight of fans from behind meant that they couldn’t go back. From his position in the police control box, Duckenfield could see the disaster unfolding. As a part of the subsequent investigation, people visited the police control box and testified that you could “see the colour of people’s eyes” such was the power of the zoom facility on the CCTV. So if this was the case, it was obviously possible to see people vomiting and turning blue as they were crushed against the perimeter fencing. Duckenfield would later testify that once he realised what he had caused he “froze” This version of events is the real truth of the Hillsborough, and why many officers on duty that day wrote in their report that there was no direction from the control box. Duckenfield had basically realised his mistakes, and presumably feared the consequences for him personally. His mind no doubt racing, he started to think of a way out for him and so when the referee stopped the game at 3.06pm and went to the police control box for information, instead of admitting his fatal errors and short comings, he lied. He told the referee and anyone else who would listen, that drunken Liverpool fans had turned up late and broken down gate C. A picture of mindless, drunk, ticket less yobs was painted in Duckenfield’s attempt to shift the blame. Later in court, he admitted that he had lied. By then, it was too late and the damage had been done. While Liverpool mourned its dead, Duckenfield’s lies had gathered a pace, and his self-preserving story was spun to the nation’s media. The following Tuesday or Wednesday, several newspapers ran the story that Duckenfield had fabricated, the worst offender by some distance was the Sun. Under the editorship of Kelvin MacKenzie. He ran a headline shouting “The Truth” and three bullet pointed sub headlines that read “Some fans pick-pocketed victims” “Some fans urinated on brave cops” “some fans beat up PC giving kiss of life” All of these headlines were later proven to be lies. I’ll say that again ALL OF THESE HEADLINES WERE LATER PROVED TO BE LIES but in a nation that is told what to think by the media, Liverpool fans had been painted as the villains of the piece. Even as MacKenzie laid out his front page, a senior ex-colleague could see what was happening and later described the story as “wrong” and “a classic smear” but complained that by this time “MacKenzie’s power was so complete that the only person capable of reining him in was Murdoch” """ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 can you show me where the south yorkshire police (who i can only presume you're talking about as opposed to some shithead on the times) have propagated lies please? someone else alluded to it in this thread and i let it slip but you've raised it again so i want to know now Sorry, you've lost me. We were talking about the bloke on the comments section who was saying that Liverpool fans were responsible for breaking into the ground. You've now brought the whole South Yorkshire police into it, I don't recall the police ever saying that Liverpool fans smashed their way into the ground, or at least if they did, could you provide me with a link? sorry mate you mentioned "the propagation of lies" iirc...someone else mentioned the south yorkshire police propaganda elsewhere in the thread just wondering what you were alluding to Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 to be clear i don't believe the police, i've stated this elsewhere in this thread, nor do i believe the testimony of fans (not all, but some...generally the most public) as i am one and i'd have lied if i felt it necessary back then if something had happened that is my right, you believe what you want trying to cut this short but the pissing on the dead shit and stealing from the dead is a disgrace of course, would never try to defend that that nor would i want to Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 ask yourself if you believe the word of the liverpool fans who were there that day too What the fuck did they have to cover up? Honestly, Fuck this. aye, everyone was innocent that day except the police eh? honestly, fuck this Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 can you show me where the south yorkshire police (who i can only presume you're talking about as opposed to some shithead on the times) have propagated lies please? someone else alluded to it in this thread and i let it slip but you've raised it again so i want to know now Sorry, you've lost me. We were talking about the bloke on the comments section who was saying that Liverpool fans were responsible for breaking into the ground. You've now brought the whole South Yorkshire police into it, I don't recall the police ever saying that Liverpool fans smashed their way into the ground, or at least if they did, could you provide me with a link? sorry mate you mentioned "the propagation of lies" iirc...someone else mentioned the south yorkshire police propaganda elsewhere in the thread just wondering what you were alluding to See the post above by Scouseman, contains everything you need to know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 can you show me where the south yorkshire police (who i can only presume you're talking about as opposed to some shithead on the times) have propagated lies please? someone else alluded to it in this thread and i let it slip but you've raised it again so i want to know now Sorry, you've lost me. We were talking about the bloke on the comments section who was saying that Liverpool fans were responsible for breaking into the ground. You've now brought the whole South Yorkshire police into it, I don't recall the police ever saying that Liverpool fans smashed their way into the ground, or at least if they did, could you provide me with a link? It turns out they did... Regarding Chief Superintendent Duckenfield: 'when the referee stopped the game at 3.06pm and went to the police control box for information, instead of admitting his fatal errors and short comings, he lied. He told the referee and anyone else who would listen, that drunken Liverpool fans had turned up late and broken down gate C. A picture of mindless, drunk, ticket less yobs was painted in Duckenfield’s attempt to shift the blame. Later in court, he admitted that he had lied. By then, it was too late and the damage had been done.' The following contains a great deal of valuable information: link link me up to the bit where i say he never lied, or none of the other policemen lied - it was an institutional birthright back then...lucky the liverpool fans weren't black or irish or things might have been worse i've stated my case and you've stated yours and we both see no point in continuing then why are we? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 the comments are worthless, one man spouts an untruth and gets shot down So we should just allow the propagation of lies? exactly. proliferating lies leads too what? leads to being shot down on the times message board, basically can you show me where the south yorkshire police (who i can only presume you're talking about as opposed to some shithead on the times) have propagated lies please? someone else alluded to it in this thread and i let it slip but you've raised it again so i want to know now magpie or toonlass (whoever quotes the taylor report first where the police lied) ask yourself if you believe the word of the liverpool fans who were there that day too Duckenfield had told his first lie while the tragedy was still happening. Where do you think the Sun got it's lies from over the next few days? You can check all of this out in the Taylor report as the writer of this has. ""Chief Superintendent Duckenfield was the most senior policeman at Hillsborough on the 15th April 1989, the year of the disaster. He had virtually no experience of policing a big match, and was only drafted in a week or so before the match. This was because the police officer that had policed the game the year before, had been suspended after an initiation prank on a new P.C. ended with the new recruit being too traumatised to work. When a police force undertake an operation such as policing a football match, a detailed report is made that describes in minute detail what was done; by whom; at what time and how. This is called an operational order, and policing the match in 1989 should not have been too difficult to police for Duckenfield, as he has a complete, successfully carried out operational order from the year before. Crucially though, the Inspector decided to make changes to this operational order, and this, among other things led to the disaster. His first mistake was that despite his limited experience, he decided that he would go against the wisdom of the officer from the year before and decided that there was no need to have police officers posted at varying distances away from the ground. In 1988, police officers were posted at varying distances to check tickets, give directions, and in the event that too many fans arrived at a certain time, they could stem the flow towards the antiquated turnstiles and relieve the pressure. Without these officers, fans were left to head for the ground unchecked, and after bad motorway traffic, many fans arrived at the Leppings Lane end of the ground between 2pm and 2.30pm, and the turnstiles could not admit people quick enough. In the absence of the outer placed police officers, fans started to congregate around the turnstiles, but they were not able to admit people quick enough and a dangerous crush started to build outside the ground. After being asked several times over the radio by Murray, the most senior policeman outside the ground, Duckenfield next gave the order to open gate C. Gate C is an exit gate, and as such is designed to let thousands of people leave the ground quickly, but used in reverse it was lethal. Even at this stage, by following the previous year’s operation order, Duckenfield could have averted the disaster. In 1988, there were police officers posted at the entrance of each of the central pens (3+4) and once these pens were full, people we re-directed to the pens on the wings. In 1989, no direction was given. Fans were left to go down a tunnel that led them to the central pens, and once they were there the weight of fans from behind meant that they couldn’t go back. From his position in the police control box, Duckenfield could see the disaster unfolding. As a part of the subsequent investigation, people visited the police control box and testified that you could “see the colour of people’s eyes” such was the power of the zoom facility on the CCTV. So if this was the case, it was obviously possible to see people vomiting and turning blue as they were crushed against the perimeter fencing. Duckenfield would later testify that once he realised what he had caused he “froze” This version of events is the real truth of the Hillsborough, and why many officers on duty that day wrote in their report that there was no direction from the control box. Duckenfield had basically realised his mistakes, and presumably feared the consequences for him personally. His mind no doubt racing, he started to think of a way out for him and so when the referee stopped the game at 3.06pm and went to the police control box for information, instead of admitting his fatal errors and short comings, he lied. He told the referee and anyone else who would listen, that drunken Liverpool fans had turned up late and broken down gate C. A picture of mindless, drunk, ticket less yobs was painted in Duckenfield’s attempt to shift the blame. Later in court, he admitted that he had lied. By then, it was too late and the damage had been done. While Liverpool mourned its dead, Duckenfield’s lies had gathered a pace, and his self-preserving story was spun to the nation’s media. The following Tuesday or Wednesday, several newspapers ran the story that Duckenfield had fabricated, the worst offender by some distance was the Sun. Under the editorship of Kelvin MacKenzie. He ran a headline shouting “The Truth” and three bullet pointed sub headlines that read “Some fans pick-pocketed victims” “Some fans urinated on brave cops” “some fans beat up PC giving kiss of life” All of these headlines were later proven to be lies. I’ll say that again ALL OF THESE HEADLINES WERE LATER PROVED TO BE LIES but in a nation that is told what to think by the media, Liverpool fans had been painted as the villains of the piece. Even as MacKenzie laid out his front page, a senior ex-colleague could see what was happening and later described the story as “wrong” and “a classic smear” but complained that by this time “MacKenzie’s power was so complete that the only person capable of reining him in was Murdoch” """ long story short the police fuck up (tragically) then try to cover it up...noone pays from the police 'cause they shaft the innocents via the establishment media welcome to fucking england - anyone else buying a new england shirt? it's smart and white and that get in the fucking queue that doesn't mean they were right, nor does it mean there was any intent involved Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Duckenfield had told his first lie while the tragedy was still happening. Where do you think the Sun got it's lies from over the next few days? You can check all of this out in the Taylor report as the writer of this has. ""Chief Superintendent Duckenfield was the most senior policeman at Hillsborough on the 15th April 1989, the year of the disaster. He had virtually no experience of policing a big match, and was only drafted in a week or so before the match. This was because the police officer that had policed the game the year before, had been suspended after an initiation prank on a new P.C. ended with the new recruit being too traumatised to work. When a police force undertake an operation such as policing a football match, a detailed report is made that describes in minute detail what was done; by whom; at what time and how. This is called an operational order, and policing the match in 1989 should not have been too difficult to police for Duckenfield, as he has a complete, successfully carried out operational order from the year before. Crucially though, the Inspector decided to make changes to this operational order, and this, among other things led to the disaster. His first mistake was that despite his limited experience, he decided that he would go against the wisdom of the officer from the year before and decided that there was no need to have police officers posted at varying distances away from the ground. In 1988, police officers were posted at varying distances to check tickets, give directions, and in the event that too many fans arrived at a certain time, they could stem the flow towards the antiquated turnstiles and relieve the pressure. Without these officers, fans were left to head for the ground unchecked, and after bad motorway traffic, many fans arrived at the Leppings Lane end of the ground between 2pm and 2.30pm, and the turnstiles could not admit people quick enough. In the absence of the outer placed police officers, fans started to congregate around the turnstiles, but they were not able to admit people quick enough and a dangerous crush started to build outside the ground. After being asked several times over the radio by Murray, the most senior policeman outside the ground, Duckenfield next gave the order to open gate C. Gate C is an exit gate, and as such is designed to let thousands of people leave the ground quickly, but used in reverse it was lethal. Even at this stage, by following the previous year’s operation order, Duckenfield could have averted the disaster. In 1988, there were police officers posted at the entrance of each of the central pens (3+4) and once these pens were full, people we re-directed to the pens on the wings. In 1989, no direction was given. Fans were left to go down a tunnel that led them to the central pens, and once they were there the weight of fans from behind meant that they couldn’t go back. From his position in the police control box, Duckenfield could see the disaster unfolding. As a part of the subsequent investigation, people visited the police control box and testified that you could “see the colour of people’s eyes” such was the power of the zoom facility on the CCTV. So if this was the case, it was obviously possible to see people vomiting and turning blue as they were crushed against the perimeter fencing. Duckenfield would later testify that once he realised what he had caused he “froze” This version of events is the real truth of the Hillsborough, and why many officers on duty that day wrote in their report that there was no direction from the control box. Duckenfield had basically realised his mistakes, and presumably feared the consequences for him personally. His mind no doubt racing, he started to think of a way out for him and so when the referee stopped the game at 3.06pm and went to the police control box for information, instead of admitting his fatal errors and short comings, he lied. He told the referee and anyone else who would listen, that drunken Liverpool fans had turned up late and broken down gate C. A picture of mindless, drunk, ticket less yobs was painted in Duckenfield’s attempt to shift the blame. Later in court, he admitted that he had lied. By then, it was too late and the damage had been done. While Liverpool mourned its dead, Duckenfield’s lies had gathered a pace, and his self-preserving story was spun to the nation’s media. The following Tuesday or Wednesday, several newspapers ran the story that Duckenfield had fabricated, the worst offender by some distance was the Sun. Under the editorship of Kelvin MacKenzie. He ran a headline shouting “The Truth” and three bullet pointed sub headlines that read “Some fans pick-pocketed victims” “Some fans urinated on brave cops” “some fans beat up PC giving kiss of life” All of these headlines were later proven to be lies. I’ll say that again ALL OF THESE HEADLINES WERE LATER PROVED TO BE LIES but in a nation that is told what to think by the media, Liverpool fans had been painted as the villains of the piece. Even as MacKenzie laid out his front page, a senior ex-colleague could see what was happening and later described the story as “wrong” and “a classic smear” but complained that by this time “MacKenzie’s power was so complete that the only person capable of reining him in was Murdoch” """ long story short the police f*** up (tragically) then try to cover it up...noone pays from the police 'cause they shaft the innocents via the establishment media welcome to f***ing england - anyone else buying a new england shirt? it's smart and white and that get in the f***ing queue that doesn't mean they were right, nor does it mean there was any intent involved Out of interest, how old are you? and when did you start going to matches? (I'm not being patronising here, just want to get an idea of where you are coming from, cheers). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Out of interest, how old are you? and when did you start going to matches? (I'm not being patronising here, just want to get an idea of where you are coming from, cheers). 33 was at games when i was a bairn (<8) albeit not big ones (15 or so)...in my time at toon games i've experienced all of the things madras describes at various places and spouted my venom at the police too, in the cold light of day i'm adult enough to see both sides of it you? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 link me up to the bit where i say he never lied, or none of the other policemen lied - it was an institutional birthright back then...lucky the liverpool fans weren't black or irish or things might have been worse erm... a couple of posts back you asked - 'can you show me where the south yorkshire police (who i can only presume you're talking about as opposed to some shithead on the times) have propagated lies please?' i've stated my case and you've stated yours and we both see no point in continuing then why are we? ...Because you asked me a question? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 link me up to the bit where i say he never lied, or none of the other policemen lied - it was an institutional birthright back then...lucky the liverpool fans weren't black or irish or things might have been worse erm... a couple of posts back you asked - 'can you show me where the south yorkshire police (who i can only presume you're talking about as opposed to some shithead on the times) have propagated lies please?' i've stated my case and you've stated yours and we both see no point in continuing then why are we? ...Because you asked me a question? sorry i'll be honest here and say i "perhaps" misunderstood the word propagation along these lines: http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/propagate?view=uk i.e. propaganda...i was asking for the link to the SYP propaganda but what i got was the testimony from an enquiry of a man who admitted he lied to cover up a mistake, they are two different things Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Out of interest, how old are you? and when did you start going to matches? (I'm not being patronising here, just want to get an idea of where you are coming from, cheers). 33 was at games when i was a bairn (<8) albeit not big ones (15 or so)...in my time at toon games i've experienced all of the things madras describes at various places and spouted my venom at the police too, in the cold light of day i'm adult enough to see both sides of it you? Add 4 years or so, started going with my old man at the beginning of the eighties. I don't think there is anymore to add to this from me, I joined this thread knowing there had been cover-ups but unaware of the extent of these (I never knew the Chief police officer lied for a start). So i've gained a great deal in reading these posts, cheers to Toonlass & Scouseman for their contributions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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