Should Owen be dropped?

[johnnypd]

Wayne Rooney - 109 shots, 9 goals. is Owen a better finisher than him, too? Cristiano Ronaldo - 177 shots, 19 goals. Obviously Owen's shooting is far better than Ronaldo's.

 

ffs basing your argument on statistics is IDIOTIC if you have no idea what those stats show or why they show it. In terms of pure finishing Ronaldo is probably the best in the world, the power and accuracy he gets in his shots is perhaps unprecedented. in terms of pure finishing michael owen has absolutely f*** all power and poor to average placement. you have to question why he has taken so few shots - it is because his finishing is not good enough for him to attempt any shot other than those which are put on a plate for him. and even then he misses most of them. and anyway even when he was in his prime his goalscoring was far, far more to do with his positioning, anticipation and movement in the box than about the way his boot hit the ball, which was only ever half-decent back then and is now, having lost the power in his legs, average to poor.

 

What?  That post is idiotic.  Rooney over 10 shots to 1 goal, thats terrible.

 

I suppose you think stats are rubbish when you look at something like 14 goals in 38 games for example.

 

stats are meaningless without a context. the fact you reckon Rooney and Ronaldo must have worse finishing because "stats" tell you so says everything about your argument. it's laughable. you havent addressed these points 1/ that owen's goals are and have always been more about his movement, positioning and anticipation then about his finishing 2/ that other players take more speculative shots which is why they miss more 3/ that Owen cannot take these kind of speculative shots because his actual finishing (the pure act of the boot hitting the ball) is so poor and 4/ that even though the only shots Owen is able to take are those put on a plate for him, he still misses 3 out of 4.

 

put all that stuff about stats and what players were like 5 years ago out of your mind, focus on pure finishing, the moment when the player strikes the ball with the aim of scoring, think about comparing how different players would do in that one distilled moment. for instance, 30 yards out, a gap presents itself, the keeper is poorly placed to the right of the goal. who will best be able to smash the ball home with incredible power and accuracy from that distance? Rooney, Ronaldo, Van Persie? Or michael owen. Think about players through on goal, a big striker breathing down their neck, the keeper swiftly rushing out. Who will finish more calmly and place it most accurately? Arshavin, Berbatov, Eduardo? Or Michael Owen? Think about a poor cross that loops over a player's head so that they have to turnin mid air and aim a blind volley or overhead kick at goal. who is more likely to pull off this difficult attempt - Adebayor, Tevez, Anelka, Drogba? Or michael owen? let's face it he is nowhere near the class of those players.

 

All of your attempts to argue the point have tried to ignore actual explanations and descriptions of player's finishing. all youre doing is parroting statistics without the slightest understanding of what those statistics show.

 

You think finishing is 30 yard shots?

 

I view it as composure, awareness, anticipation, intelligence, shot accurracy, ball control.  Not speculative shots.  Natural born finisher gets on the end of chances just through intelligence and anticipation of whats going on around him.

 

yes, that is part of it. if you don't think taking speculative shots is finishing then why are you comparing Owen's 'shots on goal' stats with the 'shots on the goal' stats of players like RVP or Rooney? Because i can guarantee that most of their shots are opportunistic, ie, the kind of shooting that Owen is incapable of trying. as i said, youre clueless about what those actual stats represent and how to contextualise them.

 

obviously you have a different idea of what finishing is, i think it is the actual act of trying to score, not the stuff that comes before it like making space for the shot, making runs behind defenders, peeling ahead of your marker to get to the near post or dropping away to the back post and so on. finishing is what happens after that and, for owen, his finishing isnt particularly good.

 

When Owen gets a chance, he is wasteful then?  Because he doesn't shoot from distance that make him poor at finishing off chances?

 

yes, it limits the kinds of chances he can realistically score from. he is nowhere near being the sort of clinical finisher a la Crespo who can get away with not doing much in general play because his finishing is so good he can score from any kind of half chance. Owen's finishing is so average that he only bothers to try when its laid out on a plate and even then, he's not that good. he still has some top class elements to his game but without service and due to his detoriating body he is not having a chance to capitalise on them.

 

Your argument is a mess.

Ok we understand that Owen can only score when its presented 'on a plate', yet he scores every 1 in 2 games.  Just under 1 in 2 for Newcastle.  If its easy for a striker to do this, why isnt there many players with a better ratio? 

 

Is it maybe because there is more to goal scoring??   

 

yes, there is more to goal scoring than finishing. this argument has always been that owen is not particularly clinical or a good finisher. his strengths are what ive listed time and time again. that is why he is (or was) a good goalscorer. as a finisher he is very limited and even the one or two things he used to be good at have been very shoddy in the past season.

 

A finisher - clue is in the name - finishes the chances created by the team.  He does this, by getting on the end of what is created in and around the area, and when he gets on the end of these he is scoring goals.  Like a good goalscorer does. 

 

How you can not call him a good finisher (of chances) when i have been proving with stuff from this season and over his career when he gets opportunities he puts them away, more consistently(!) than people who are supposedly better at it then him.  Finishing isnt about long range shots at all.  If i was manager of Rooney and i got told he scores 1 in every 10 shots, be estatic!  but apparently true.  Finishes alot of moves that boy.

 

 

using your own definition of finishing completely rubbishes the basis of your entire argument, those shots to goals stats don't show 'finishing' as you understand it, they show all shots, whether they are 'finishes' or not, 30 yarders, lobs, volleys, headers. everything. as i said, you're clueless as to what those stats show and how to read them for meaning.

 

How does it rubbish my argument?  It started off with shots on target to goals scored.  From his attempts to goals, it showed had better rate than the players he seemingly weren't more clinical than him.

 

How you define finishing is completely wrong imo.  What those players have to their game is better technique but are not better strikers instincts of a natural born finisher.

 

Because you are simply focusing on 'finishing' as you understand it and then applying statistics which do not show 'finishing' but all shots. quite simple. not once have you responded to the numerous points raised, or tried to put the stats into context, or tried to look beyond them and compare in-game situations. think about birmingham away last season, owen has a chance that he misses cos his finishing is not great, but scores another because his anticipation meant he got to the rebound before any defender did, leaving him with a simple tap in that doesnt need good finishing to score. what stands out in that match then is not his finishing but things like movement, anticipation and positioning, his real stand out qualities.

[prefabtoon]

We have got to give Carroll and loverkrands there chance,

Its daylight that Owen has lost all his pace and lost the will to try for us,

He will be off at the end of this term and good riddance to the waste of space.

 

[dcmk]

Wayne Rooney - 109 shots, 9 goals. is Owen a better finisher than him, too? Cristiano Ronaldo - 177 shots, 19 goals. Obviously Owen's shooting is far better than Ronaldo's.

 

ffs basing your argument on statistics is IDIOTIC if you have no idea what those stats show or why they show it. In terms of pure finishing Ronaldo is probably the best in the world, the power and accuracy he gets in his shots is perhaps unprecedented. in terms of pure finishing michael owen has absolutely f*** all power and poor to average placement. you have to question why he has taken so few shots - it is because his finishing is not good enough for him to attempt any shot other than those which are put on a plate for him. and even then he misses most of them. and anyway even when he was in his prime his goalscoring was far, far more to do with his positioning, anticipation and movement in the box than about the way his boot hit the ball, which was only ever half-decent back then and is now, having lost the power in his legs, average to poor.

 

What?  That post is idiotic.  Rooney over 10 shots to 1 goal, thats terrible.

 

I suppose you think stats are rubbish when you look at something like 14 goals in 38 games for example.

 

stats are meaningless without a context. the fact you reckon Rooney and Ronaldo must have worse finishing because "stats" tell you so says everything about your argument. it's laughable. you havent addressed these points 1/ that owen's goals are and have always been more about his movement, positioning and anticipation then about his finishing 2/ that other players take more speculative shots which is why they miss more 3/ that Owen cannot take these kind of speculative shots because his actual finishing (the pure act of the boot hitting the ball) is so poor and 4/ that even though the only shots Owen is able to take are those put on a plate for him, he still misses 3 out of 4.

 

put all that stuff about stats and what players were like 5 years ago out of your mind, focus on pure finishing, the moment when the player strikes the ball with the aim of scoring, think about comparing how different players would do in that one distilled moment. for instance, 30 yards out, a gap presents itself, the keeper is poorly placed to the right of the goal. who will best be able to smash the ball home with incredible power and accuracy from that distance? Rooney, Ronaldo, Van Persie? Or michael owen. Think about players through on goal, a big striker breathing down their neck, the keeper swiftly rushing out. Who will finish more calmly and place it most accurately? Arshavin, Berbatov, Eduardo? Or Michael Owen? Think about a poor cross that loops over a player's head so that they have to turnin mid air and aim a blind volley or overhead kick at goal. who is more likely to pull off this difficult attempt - Adebayor, Tevez, Anelka, Drogba? Or michael owen? let's face it he is nowhere near the class of those players.

 

All of your attempts to argue the point have tried to ignore actual explanations and descriptions of player's finishing. all youre doing is parroting statistics without the slightest understanding of what those statistics show.

 

You think finishing is 30 yard shots?

 

I view it as composure, awareness, anticipation, intelligence, shot accurracy, ball control.  Not speculative shots.  Natural born finisher gets on the end of chances just through intelligence and anticipation of whats going on around him.

 

yes, that is part of it. if you don't think taking speculative shots is finishing then why are you comparing Owen's 'shots on goal' stats with the 'shots on the goal' stats of players like RVP or Rooney? Because i can guarantee that most of their shots are opportunistic, ie, the kind of shooting that Owen is incapable of trying. as i said, youre clueless about what those actual stats represent and how to contextualise them.

 

obviously you have a different idea of what finishing is, i think it is the actual act of trying to score, not the stuff that comes before it like making space for the shot, making runs behind defenders, peeling ahead of your marker to get to the near post or dropping away to the back post and so on. finishing is what happens after that and, for owen, his finishing isnt particularly good.

 

When Owen gets a chance, he is wasteful then?  Because he doesn't shoot from distance that make him poor at finishing off chances?

 

yes, it limits the kinds of chances he can realistically score from. he is nowhere near being the sort of clinical finisher a la Crespo who can get away with not doing much in general play because his finishing is so good he can score from any kind of half chance. Owen's finishing is so average that he only bothers to try when its laid out on a plate and even then, he's not that good. he still has some top class elements to his game but without service and due to his detoriating body he is not having a chance to capitalise on them.

 

Your argument is a mess.

Ok we understand that Owen can only score when its presented 'on a plate', yet he scores every 1 in 2 games.  Just under 1 in 2 for Newcastle.  If its easy for a striker to do this, why isnt there many players with a better ratio? 

 

Is it maybe because there is more to goal scoring??   

 

yes, there is more to goal scoring than finishing. this argument has always been that owen is not particularly clinical or a good finisher. his strengths are what ive listed time and time again. that is why he is (or was) a good goalscorer. as a finisher he is very limited and even the one or two things he used to be good at have been very shoddy in the past season.

 

A finisher - clue is in the name - finishes the chances created by the team.  He does this, by getting on the end of what is created in and around the area, and when he gets on the end of these he is scoring goals.  Like a good goalscorer does. 

 

How you can not call him a good finisher (of chances) when i have been proving with stuff from this season and over his career when he gets opportunities he puts them away, more consistently(!) than people who are supposedly better at it then him.  Finishing isnt about long range shots at all.  If i was manager of Rooney and i got told he scores 1 in every 10 shots, be estatic!  but apparently true.  Finishes alot of moves that boy.

 

 

using your own definition of finishing completely rubbishes the basis of your entire argument, those shots to goals stats don't show 'finishing' as you understand it, they show all shots, whether they are 'finishes' or not, 30 yarders, lobs, volleys, headers. everything. as i said, you're clueless as to what those stats show and how to read them for meaning.

 

How does it rubbish my argument?  It started off with shots on target to goals scored.  From his attempts to goals, it showed had better rate than the players he seemingly weren't more clinical than him.

 

How you define finishing is completely wrong imo.  What those players have to their game is better technique but are not better strikers instincts of a natural born finisher.

 

Because you are simply focusing on 'finishing' as you understand it and then applying statistics which do not show 'finishing' but all shots. quite simple. not once have you responded to the numerous points raised, or tried to put the stats into context, or tried to look beyond them and compare in-game situations. think about birmingham away last season, owen has a chance that he misses cos his finishing is not great, but scores another because his anticipation meant he got to the rebound before any defender did, leaving him with a simple tap in that doesnt need good finishing to score. what stands out in that match then is not his finishing but things like movement, anticipation and positioning, his real stand out qualities.

 

Using shots to goals is the only way you can compare him to other players - who i dont see week in week out.  I know the stats aren't the fairest way to judge but its - you have to admit - the only way we can have a rough idea.

 

I know Owens game is limited, never denied that- im one of the people who wouldnt mind seeing him dropped, but the stick he gets on here, notably Kaka saying Diaby, Bendtner etc are all better more effecient strikers or something.  IS utter, utter laughable.

[johnnypd]

i think diaby or bendtner are quite clumsy actually, but the likes of eduardo and rvp are more clinical than Owen.

[Ronaldo]

of course they are tbh. Owen's primarily an instictive finisher, not a clinical one

[dcmk]

i think diaby or bendtner are quite clumsy actually, but the likes of eduardo and rvp are more clinical than Owen.

 

However you can't prove that, Owen will get more goals than RVP if he was in the Arsenal team im sure.  They will carry him lengthy periods sure, but will get more goals.

[Ronaldo]

i think diaby or bendtner are quite clumsy actually, but the likes of eduardo and rvp are more clinical than Owen.

 

However you can't prove that, Owen will get more goals than RVP if he was in the Arsenal team im sure.  They will carry him lengthy periods sure, but will get more goals.

 

this is the same Owen who never managed 20 premiership goals, even at his best 8 years ago

[johnnypd]

of course they are tbh. Owen's primarily an instictive finisher, not a clinical one

 

yep. he gets into the right position and then it is a case of relying on instinct, sticking a leg out to attack a cross away at west brom a couple of seasons back is a good example. when he has to do something a bit more difficult, or needs to use power or think about what he is doing he is not so good.

[dcmk]

i think diaby or bendtner are quite clumsy actually, but the likes of eduardo and rvp are more clinical than Owen.

 

However you can't prove that, Owen will get more goals than RVP if he was in the Arsenal team im sure.  They will carry him lengthy periods sure, but will get more goals.

 

this is the same Owen who never managed 20 premiership goals, even at his best 8 years ago

 

 

over 1 goal every 2 games for Liverpool.  18 twice, 19 twice.

His Europe record looks pretty good, England too 

[Ronaldo]

right, which was 8 years ago, he isn't half that player now

[johnnypd]

i think diaby or bendtner are quite clumsy actually, but the likes of eduardo and rvp are more clinical than Owen.

 

However you can't prove that, Owen will get more goals than RVP if he was in the Arsenal team im sure.  They will carry him lengthy periods sure, but will get more goals.

 

but not because of better finishing, if he got more goals it would be because he loiters around the box waiting for chances so he can capitalise on his striker's instinct whereas RVP is all over the pitch making things happen.

[dcmk]

i think diaby or bendtner are quite clumsy actually, but the likes of eduardo and rvp are more clinical than Owen.

 

However you can't prove that, Owen will get more goals than RVP if he was in the Arsenal team im sure.  They will carry him lengthy periods sure, but will get more goals.

 

this is the same Owen who never managed 20 premiership goals, even at his best 8 years ago

 

 

over 1 goal every 2 games for Liverpool.  18 twice, 19 twice.

His Europe record looks pretty good, England too

right, which was 8 years ago, he isn't half that player now

 

Not that long ago actually, he hit 7 goals in 11, 2005.  His goals/games ratio at Newcastle isn't that bad despite your belief.  Just under 1 in 2 in time here.

[Ronaldo]

2005 was 4 years ago mate. You take away the penalties he's scored and he's managed 1 goal in 3 apps

 

pretty horrific for a striker who justifies selection on goals only if you ask me

[dcmk]

2005 was 4 years ago mate. You take away the penalties he's scored and he's managed 1 goal in 3 apps

 

pretty horrific for a striker who justifies selection on goals only if you ask me

 

So who has been performing well in our team since 2005/2006 season, in attacking sense?

[Ronaldo]

2005 was 4 years ago mate. You take away the penalties he's scored and he's managed 1 goal in 3 apps

 

pretty horrific for a striker who justifies selection on goals only if you ask me

 

So who has been performing well in our team since 2005/2006 season, in attacking sense?

 

what does this have to go with Owen? Martins has had a tough season but did very well in the previous 2 when he was on the pitch. Surely you're not using the performances of players like Shola Ameobi and Damien Duff to vindicate Owen

[Liam Liam Liam O]

Owen is finished as a top class centre forward/goalscorer (unfortunately for us)

[dcmk]

2005 was 4 years ago mate. You take away the penalties he's scored and he's managed 1 goal in 3 apps

 

pretty horrific for a striker who justifies selection on goals only if you ask me

 

So who has been performing well in our team since 2005/2006 season, in attacking sense?

 

what does this have to go with Owen? Martins has had a tough season but did very well in the previous 2 when he was on the pitch. Surely you're not using the performances of players like Shola Ameobi and Damien Duff to vindicate Owen

 

Being a striker who relies on service and movement in the box, which the ball never gets to, he can't be expected to hit the net.  So on that basis put him in a Liverpool side and he will become a 1 goal in 2 game striker.  So i will use the players around him to vindicate him.

 

Jonas has 2 assists i think all season, people on here believe he has been a good signing.

[TRon]

Owen's stats of 1 goal in 2 games looks very impressive on paper, but hasn't he only scored 1 goal in his last 8 games when he have needed them the most?

[dcmk]

Owen's stats of 1 goal in 2 games looks very impressive on paper, but hasn't he only scored 1 goal in his last 8 games when he have needed them the most?

 

I think you will find the majority of those games he didn't have a single shot.

[Liam Liam Liam O]

2005 was 4 years ago mate. You take away the penalties he's scored and he's managed 1 goal in 3 apps

 

pretty horrific for a striker who justifies selection on goals only if you ask me

 

So who has been performing well in our team since 2005/2006 season, in attacking sense?

 

what does this have to go with Owen? Martins has had a tough season but did very well in the previous 2 when he was on the pitch. Surely you're not using the performances of players like Shola Ameobi and Damien Duff to vindicate Owen

 

Being a striker who relies on service and movement in the box, which the ball never gets to, he can't be expected to hit the net.  So on that basis put him in a Liverpool side and he will become a 1 goal in 2 game striker.  So i will use the players around him to vindicate him.

 

Jonas has 2 assists i think all season, people on here believe he has been a good signing.

 

Which other strikers in this country rely so heavily on their team mates?  ie. if they don't get any service they do absolutely nothing?

[Ronaldo]

Owen's stats of 1 goal in 2 games looks very impressive on paper, but hasn't he only scored 1 goal in his last 8 games when he have needed them the most?

 

0 in the last 8

 

1 in the last 14

[Dave]

Owen's stats of 1 goal in 2 games looks very impressive on paper, but hasn't he only scored 1 goal in his last 8 games when he have needed them the most?

 

I think you will find the majority of those games he didn't have a single shot.

 

Aren't you meant to be defending him?

[Ronaldo]

2005 was 4 years ago mate. You take away the penalties he's scored and he's managed 1 goal in 3 apps

 

pretty horrific for a striker who justifies selection on goals only if you ask me

 

So who has been performing well in our team since 2005/2006 season, in attacking sense?

 

what does this have to go with Owen? Martins has had a tough season but did very well in the previous 2 when he was on the pitch. Surely you're not using the performances of players like Shola Ameobi and Damien Duff to vindicate Owen

 

Being a striker who relies on service and movement in the box, which the ball never gets to, he can't be expected to hit the net.  So on that basis put him in a Liverpool side and he will become a 1 goal in 2 game striker.  So i will use the players around him to vindicate him.

 

Jonas has 2 assists i think all season, people on here believe he has been a good signing.

 

We'll find out when Owen moves to Spurs or wheoever. But the striker who relies on service to that extent is essentially extinct with the exception of those like Inzaghi, who'll hit the back of the net 9 times out of 10

 

Owen most certainly does not

[TRon]

Owen's stats of 1 goal in 2 games looks very impressive on paper, but hasn't he only scored 1 goal in his last 8 games when he have needed them the most?

 

0 in the last 8

 

1 in the last 14

 

Wow. Those 1 in 2 stats look pretty hollow now. If he's playing against boro he has to score or we are going to have paid dearly for keeping faith with him based on his reputation.

 

 

[dcmk]

2005 was 4 years ago mate. You take away the penalties he's scored and he's managed 1 goal in 3 apps

 

pretty horrific for a striker who justifies selection on goals only if you ask me

 

So who has been performing well in our team since 2005/2006 season, in attacking sense?

 

what does this have to go with Owen? Martins has had a tough season but did very well in the previous 2 when he was on the pitch. Surely you're not using the performances of players like Shola Ameobi and Damien Duff to vindicate Owen

 

Being a striker who relies on service and movement in the box, which the ball never gets to, he can't be expected to hit the net.  So on that basis put him in a Liverpool side and he will become a 1 goal in 2 game striker.  So i will use the players around him to vindicate him.

 

Jonas has 2 assists i think all season, people on here believe he has been a good signing.

 

We'll find out when Owen moves to Spurs or wheoever. But the striker who relies on service to that extent is essentially extinct with the exception of those like Inzaghi, who'll hit the back of the net 9 times out of 10

 

Owen most certainly does not

 

they have exactly the same game - Inzaghi and him i'm glad you brought that up, when i used to watch AC Milan a few years ago, missed hatful of chances but after every 4 attempts will net one, be offside about 7 times a game.  Has for all his experience, the intelligence of a fish when playing off the last man.

 

Owen is alot more clinical then him, again going to point to his 1 in 2 record over his career to prove it!  His legs may have gone but he still has to score them somehow.