Parky vs. Immigration issues in International football caused by modern society

[Kaizero]

Forwards: There are six forwards that will possibly be in uniform come June 13 when Germany takes on Australia. How many of these forwards are German born though? The answer is 3. That means that fifty-percent of the German front line goal scorers are not born in the country. Miroslav Klose and Lukas Podolski are both born in Poland and Cacau is Brazilian born.

 

Midfielders: There are also six midfielders that most definitely be dawning the black, red and yellow come tournament time. The problem is that the birth places of the middle six do not represent theses colors. Like many other German Nationals, Piotr Trochowski was born in Poland and Marko Marin is a product of Yugoslavia.

 

Defenders: Out of 8 defenders in the current line-up, all but one is German born. The loner is Andreas Beck, a 23 year old footballer that hails from the Soviet Union."

 

IMO a bit of rule bending going on, but what do you expect from ze Germans? 

 

Some debate have already occured between http://www.newcastle-online.org/nufcforum/index.php/topic,69768.msg2361173.html#msg2361173 and http://www.newcastle-online.org/nufcforum/index.php/topic,69768.msg2361356.html#msg2361356

[Village Idiot]

Germany to be knocked out of the WC in three years then.

 

Ok, now talking seriously, Spain are historically a bit on the offending side of this so I can be a bit biased. That said - and I don't know the biographical particulars of these German players - if we are talking people that moved to Germany as children and grew up there despite being foreign-born, I have no issue with that.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

If they're German citizens, and they consider themselves to be German, then it doesn't matter to me.

[MW]

So if my parents are on holiday abroad and im born there, but brought up in england i shouldnt be able to play for england?

[Guest KeithKettleborough]

Don't think we can complain when half of our cricket team (which did just win a World Cup) are made up of foreign born players, some who have only been here a few years.

 

With regard to what should qualify you as English etc, my opinion is that if your family have emigrated and you are born abroad, then you should not be considered as English. If you are on holiday, serving with the forces or say working at an embassy etc, then I feel you should still be English (or British).

 

Wonder how many players who weren't born in that country have actually won a World Cup then? Desailly is the only one I know of.

[Greg]

Don't think we can complain when half of our cricket team (which did just win a World Cup) are made up of foreign born players, some who have only been here a few years.

 

With regard to what should qualify you as English etc, my opinion is that if your family have emigrated and you are born abroad, then you should not be considered as English. If you are on holiday, serving with the forces or say working at an embassy etc, then I feel you should still be English (or British).

 

Wonder how many players who weren't born in that country have actually won a World Cup then? Desailly is the only one I know of.

 

Patrick Vieira, Lilian Thuram, Mauro Camoranesi, Simone Perrotta.

[chicago_shearer]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the rules as they are.  Those Turkish or Polish German players could conceivably have a very strong patriotic attachment to Germany based on their acquired citizenship or citizenship by birthright.  They could feel more 'German' than John Terry feels English, or they could be opportunistically attempting to play in a World Cup.  I don't know, there's no good way to find out.  And it doesn't matter.  One Turkish kid could move to Germany at 5 years old, completely assimilate to German culture, adopt citizenship and worship David Hasselhoff.  Another could spend his life in a Turkish community, support his father's team and stay 'Turkish'.  If both end up professional footballers, then they are entitled to a choice.  We hope they pick the country they feel emotionally attached to.  Some will.  Some don't.  Some may not care.  It depends on too many factors to both worrying about.

[Taylor Swift]

There is nothing wrong with the rule as it is, unless you're a fascist wanker who insists that a nationality is only represented by one, true stereotypical physical appearance.

[CaliMag]

The thing I find so fantastic is that Poles would actually play for Gemrany at all.

 

How many Scots or Irish would play for England? None. I am ethnically Scottish, and eventhough my family has lived in Northumberland and Newcastle for 50 years - none of them would play for England... ever. And this is because of shit that happened 300 to 500 years ago.

 

Meanwhile the Poles were deemed "subhuman," forced in slave labour and offered free sterilization by the "Master Race" just 60 years ago and yet you have players like Podolski and Klose playing for the Germans.

 

So either the Poles are just more forgiving people than the Celts or the Germans are just more likable than the English.

 

I am going with the Poles being less bitter personally. Obviously there's something different here.

[Kaizero]

The thing I find so fantastic is that Poles would actually play for Gemrany at all.

 

How many Scots or Irish would play for England? None. I am ethnically Scottish, and eventhough my family has lived in Northumberland and Newcastle for 50 years - none of them would play for England... ever. And this is because of shit that happened 300 to 500 years ago.

 

Meanwhile the Poles were deemed "subhuman," forced in slave labour and offered free sterilization by the "Master Race" just 60 years ago and yet you have players like Podolski and Klose playing for the Germans.

 

So either the Poles are just more forgiving people than the Celts or the Germans are just more likable than the English.

 

I am going with the Poles being less bitter personally. Obviously there's something different here.

 

Podolski and Klose aren't "really" Polish though. Klose moved to Germany when he was six (after also probably spending more than 50% of their time before this in France where his father was playing football.), Podolski moved when he was two. How can you expect someone moving that young to have any real feelings  toward a country they've only lived in for a very small amount of their life? Also Podolski's paternal family belonged to the German minority in Upper Silesia before they moved.

[oldtype]

The thing I find so fantastic is that Poles would actually play for Gemrany at all.

 

How many Scots or Irish would play for England? None. I am ethnically Scottish, and eventhough my family has lived in Northumberland and Newcastle for 50 years - none of them would play for England... ever. And this is because of s*** that happened 300 to 500 years ago.

 

Meanwhile the Poles were deemed "subhuman," forced in slave labour and offered free sterilization by the "Master Race" just 60 years ago and yet you have players like Podolski and Klose playing for the Germans.

 

So either the Poles are just more forgiving people than the Celts or the Germans are just more likable than the English.

 

I am going with the Poles being less bitter personally. Obviously there's something different here.

 

I've actually been kind of amazed by that. I know, different situation and all, but if an ethnically Korean player ever played for Japan he'd be crucified in public opinion over here.

[Kaizero]

The thing I find so fantastic is that Poles would actually play for Gemrany at all.

 

How many Scots or Irish would play for England? None. I am ethnically Scottish, and eventhough my family has lived in Northumberland and Newcastle for 50 years - none of them would play for England... ever. And this is because of s*** that happened 300 to 500 years ago.

 

Meanwhile the Poles were deemed "subhuman," forced in slave labour and offered free sterilization by the "Master Race" just 60 years ago and yet you have players like Podolski and Klose playing for the Germans.

 

So either the Poles are just more forgiving people than the Celts or the Germans are just more likable than the English.

 

I am going with the Poles being less bitter personally. Obviously there's something different here.

 

I've actually been kind of amazed by that. I know, different situation and all, but if an ethnically Korean player ever played for Japan he'd be crucified in public opinion over here.

 

Why would the said player care though, if he really saw himself as more Japanese than Korean then surely he'd just laugh at you?

[oldtype]

The thing I find so fantastic is that Poles would actually play for Gemrany at all.

 

How many Scots or Irish would play for England? None. I am ethnically Scottish, and eventhough my family has lived in Northumberland and Newcastle for 50 years - none of them would play for England... ever. And this is because of s*** that happened 300 to 500 years ago.

 

Meanwhile the Poles were deemed "subhuman," forced in slave labour and offered free sterilization by the "Master Race" just 60 years ago and yet you have players like Podolski and Klose playing for the Germans.

 

So either the Poles are just more forgiving people than the Celts or the Germans are just more likable than the English.

 

I am going with the Poles being less bitter personally. Obviously there's something different here.

 

I've actually been kind of amazed by that. I know, different situation and all, but if an ethnically Korean player ever played for Japan he'd be crucified in public opinion over here.

 

Why would the said player care though, if he really saw himself as more Japanese than Korean then surely he'd just laugh at you?

 

Fair enough I guess. I'd still hate his guts and hope our lads break his legs at the first opportunity though

[chicago_shearer]

The thing I find so fantastic is that Poles would actually play for Gemrany at all.

 

How many Scots or Irish would play for England? None. I am ethnically Scottish, and eventhough my family has lived in Northumberland and Newcastle for 50 years - none of them would play for England... ever. And this is because of s*** that happened 300 to 500 years ago.

 

Meanwhile the Poles were deemed "subhuman," forced in slave labour and offered free sterilization by the "Master Race" just 60 years ago and yet you have players like Podolski and Klose playing for the Germans.

 

So either the Poles are just more forgiving people than the Celts or the Germans are just more likable than the English.

 

I am going with the Poles being less bitter personally. Obviously there's something different here.

 

Podolski and Klose aren't "really" Polish though. Klose moved to Germany when he was six (after also probably spending more than 50% of their time before this in France where his father was playing football.), Podolski moved when he was two. How can you expect someone moving that young to have any real feelings  toward a country they've only lived in for a very small amount of their life? Also Podolski's paternal family belonged to the German minority in Upper Silesia before they moved.

 

FIFA can't go around telling people if they have proper citizenship or not.

 

An Algerian moving to France at the age of two, could conceivably grow up identifying himself as an Algerian rather than a Frenchman for a number of racial, religious and social reasons.  A Welsh child growing up in England from the same age is probably not going to have that sort of attachment to his place of birth.  But who the f*** knows.  You'll never be able to draw the line and I'm not sure why you'd want to.

[Kaizero]

The thing I find so fantastic is that Poles would actually play for Gemrany at all.

 

How many Scots or Irish would play for England? None. I am ethnically Scottish, and eventhough my family has lived in Northumberland and Newcastle for 50 years - none of them would play for England... ever. And this is because of s*** that happened 300 to 500 years ago.

 

Meanwhile the Poles were deemed "subhuman," forced in slave labour and offered free sterilization by the "Master Race" just 60 years ago and yet you have players like Podolski and Klose playing for the Germans.

 

So either the Poles are just more forgiving people than the Celts or the Germans are just more likable than the English.

 

I am going with the Poles being less bitter personally. Obviously there's something different here.

 

Podolski and Klose aren't "really" Polish though. Klose moved to Germany when he was six (after also probably spending more than 50% of their time before this in France where his father was playing football.), Podolski moved when he was two. How can you expect someone moving that young to have any real feelings  toward a country they've only lived in for a very small amount of their life? Also Podolski's paternal family belonged to the German minority in Upper Silesia before they moved.

 

FIFA can't go around telling people if they have proper citizenship or not.

 

An Algerian moving to France at the age of two, could conceivably grow up identifying himself as an Algerian rather than a Frenchman for a number of racial, religious and social reasons.  A Welsh child growing up in England from the same age is probably not going to have that sort of attachment to his place of birth.  But who the f*** knows.  You'll never be able to draw the line and I'm not sure why you'd want to.

 

I don't want to draw a line. I'm fine with people representing the country they want to on most occasions. (The exception are the Brazilians and so on  that change their nationality only to play at a tournament, not because they feel like they are more that nationality than Brazilian.)

 

In general, I'd probably only want to implement a rule of having to declare a nation when you're young, or not allowing the "five year rule" (most countries have five years before you can become a citizen) to apply to International football.

[oldtype]

The thing I find so fantastic is that Poles would actually play for Gemrany at all.

 

How many Scots or Irish would play for England? None. I am ethnically Scottish, and eventhough my family has lived in Northumberland and Newcastle for 50 years - none of them would play for England... ever. And this is because of s*** that happened 300 to 500 years ago.

 

Meanwhile the Poles were deemed "subhuman," forced in slave labour and offered free sterilization by the "Master Race" just 60 years ago and yet you have players like Podolski and Klose playing for the Germans.

 

So either the Poles are just more forgiving people than the Celts or the Germans are just more likable than the English.

 

I am going with the Poles being less bitter personally. Obviously there's something different here.

 

Podolski and Klose aren't "really" Polish though. Klose moved to Germany when he was six (after also probably spending more than 50% of their time before this in France where his father was playing football.), Podolski moved when he was two. How can you expect someone moving that young to have any real feelings  toward a country they've only lived in for a very small amount of their life? Also Podolski's paternal family belonged to the German minority in Upper Silesia before they moved.

 

FIFA can't go around telling people if they have proper citizenship or not.

 

An Algerian moving to France at the age of two, could conceivably grow up identifying himself as an Algerian rather than a Frenchman for a number of racial, religious and social reasons.  A Welsh child growing up in England from the same age is probably not going to have that sort of attachment to his place of birth.  But who the f*** knows.  You'll never be able to draw the line and I'm not sure why you'd want to.

 

I don't want to draw a line. I'm fine with people representing the country they want to on most occasions. (The exception are the Brazilians and so on  that change their nationality only to play at a tournament, not because they feel like they are more that nationality than Brazilian.)

 

In general, I'd probably only want to implement a rule of having to declare a nation when you're young, or not allowing the "five year rule" (most countries have five years before you can become a citizen) to apply to International football.

 

I agree, the real problem here is the five year rule, not the fact that players can choose which of their countries they want to play for. Also the grandfather rule.

 

It might be a good idea to change it to being able to choose either your country of birth or your parent's country

[Kaizero]

The thing I find so fantastic is that Poles would actually play for Gemrany at all.

 

How many Scots or Irish would play for England? None. I am ethnically Scottish, and eventhough my family has lived in Northumberland and Newcastle for 50 years - none of them would play for England... ever. And this is because of s*** that happened 300 to 500 years ago.

 

Meanwhile the Poles were deemed "subhuman," forced in slave labour and offered free sterilization by the "Master Race" just 60 years ago and yet you have players like Podolski and Klose playing for the Germans.

 

So either the Poles are just more forgiving people than the Celts or the Germans are just more likable than the English.

 

I am going with the Poles being less bitter personally. Obviously there's something different here.

 

Podolski and Klose aren't "really" Polish though. Klose moved to Germany when he was six (after also probably spending more than 50% of their time before this in France where his father was playing football.), Podolski moved when he was two. How can you expect someone moving that young to have any real feelings  toward a country they've only lived in for a very small amount of their life? Also Podolski's paternal family belonged to the German minority in Upper Silesia before they moved.

 

FIFA can't go around telling people if they have proper citizenship or not.

 

An Algerian moving to France at the age of two, could conceivably grow up identifying himself as an Algerian rather than a Frenchman for a number of racial, religious and social reasons.  A Welsh child growing up in England from the same age is probably not going to have that sort of attachment to his place of birth.  But who the f*** knows.  You'll never be able to draw the line and I'm not sure why you'd want to.

 

I don't want to draw a line. I'm fine with people representing the country they want to on most occasions. (The exception are the Brazilians and so on  that change their nationality only to play at a tournament, not because they feel like they are more that nationality than Brazilian.)

 

In general, I'd probably only want to implement a rule of having to declare a nation when you're young, or not allowing the "five year rule" (most countries have five years before you can become a citizen) to apply to International football.

 

I agree, the real problem here is the five year rule, not the fact that players can choose which of their countries they want to play for. Also the grandfather rule.

 

It might be a good idea to change it to being able to choose either your country of birth or your parent's country

 

What if you like Podolski, only lived two years in your birth country and the rest of your life in another?

[oldtype]

The thing I find so fantastic is that Poles would actually play for Gemrany at all.

 

How many Scots or Irish would play for England? None. I am ethnically Scottish, and eventhough my family has lived in Northumberland and Newcastle for 50 years - none of them would play for England... ever. And this is because of s*** that happened 300 to 500 years ago.

 

Meanwhile the Poles were deemed "subhuman," forced in slave labour and offered free sterilization by the "Master Race" just 60 years ago and yet you have players like Podolski and Klose playing for the Germans.

 

So either the Poles are just more forgiving people than the Celts or the Germans are just more likable than the English.

 

I am going with the Poles being less bitter personally. Obviously there's something different here.

 

Podolski and Klose aren't "really" Polish though. Klose moved to Germany when he was six (after also probably spending more than 50% of their time before this in France where his father was playing football.), Podolski moved when he was two. How can you expect someone moving that young to have any real feelings  toward a country they've only lived in for a very small amount of their life? Also Podolski's paternal family belonged to the German minority in Upper Silesia before they moved.

 

FIFA can't go around telling people if they have proper citizenship or not.

 

An Algerian moving to France at the age of two, could conceivably grow up identifying himself as an Algerian rather than a Frenchman for a number of racial, religious and social reasons.  A Welsh child growing up in England from the same age is probably not going to have that sort of attachment to his place of birth.  But who the f*** knows.  You'll never be able to draw the line and I'm not sure why you'd want to.

 

I don't want to draw a line. I'm fine with people representing the country they want to on most occasions. (The exception are the Brazilians and so on  that change their nationality only to play at a tournament, not because they feel like they are more that nationality than Brazilian.)

 

In general, I'd probably only want to implement a rule of having to declare a nation when you're young, or not allowing the "five year rule" (most countries have five years before you can become a citizen) to apply to International football.

 

I agree, the real problem here is the five year rule, not the fact that players can choose which of their countries they want to play for. Also the grandfather rule.

 

It might be a good idea to change it to being able to choose either your country of birth or your parent's country

 

What if you like Podolski, only lived two years in your birth country and the rest of your life in another?

 

Okay, never mind actually.

 

England wouldn't be able to call upon the services of the mighty Shola either under my rule. It's obviously crap.

[Kaizero]

The thing I find so fantastic is that Poles would actually play for Gemrany at all.

 

How many Scots or Irish would play for England? None. I am ethnically Scottish, and eventhough my family has lived in Northumberland and Newcastle for 50 years - none of them would play for England... ever. And this is because of s*** that happened 300 to 500 years ago.

 

Meanwhile the Poles were deemed "subhuman," forced in slave labour and offered free sterilization by the "Master Race" just 60 years ago and yet you have players like Podolski and Klose playing for the Germans.

 

So either the Poles are just more forgiving people than the Celts or the Germans are just more likable than the English.

 

I am going with the Poles being less bitter personally. Obviously there's something different here.

 

Podolski and Klose aren't "really" Polish though. Klose moved to Germany when he was six (after also probably spending more than 50% of their time before this in France where his father was playing football.), Podolski moved when he was two. How can you expect someone moving that young to have any real feelings  toward a country they've only lived in for a very small amount of their life? Also Podolski's paternal family belonged to the German minority in Upper Silesia before they moved.

 

FIFA can't go around telling people if they have proper citizenship or not.

 

An Algerian moving to France at the age of two, could conceivably grow up identifying himself as an Algerian rather than a Frenchman for a number of racial, religious and social reasons.  A Welsh child growing up in England from the same age is probably not going to have that sort of attachment to his place of birth.  But who the f*** knows.  You'll never be able to draw the line and I'm not sure why you'd want to.

 

I don't want to draw a line. I'm fine with people representing the country they want to on most occasions. (The exception are the Brazilians and so on  that change their nationality only to play at a tournament, not because they feel like they are more that nationality than Brazilian.)

 

In general, I'd probably only want to implement a rule of having to declare a nation when you're young, or not allowing the "five year rule" (most countries have five years before you can become a citizen) to apply to International football.

 

I agree, the real problem here is the five year rule, not the fact that players can choose which of their countries they want to play for. Also the grandfather rule.

 

It might be a good idea to change it to being able to choose either your country of birth or your parent's country

 

What if you like Podolski, only lived two years in your birth country and the rest of your life in another?

 

Okay, never mind actually.

 

England wouldn't be able to call upon the services of the mighty Shola either under my rule. It's obviously crap.

 

It could be sorted by declaring your nation of choice by 18, and being able to choose from the country of your parents, your country of birth, or your country of citizenship. Would at least make it so you can't exploit the five year rule, which is the main problem. Grandparent rule need to go as well, as you said.

[oldtype]

The thing I find so fantastic is that Poles would actually play for Gemrany at all.

 

How many Scots or Irish would play for England? None. I am ethnically Scottish, and eventhough my family has lived in Northumberland and Newcastle for 50 years - none of them would play for England... ever. And this is because of s*** that happened 300 to 500 years ago.

 

Meanwhile the Poles were deemed "subhuman," forced in slave labour and offered free sterilization by the "Master Race" just 60 years ago and yet you have players like Podolski and Klose playing for the Germans.

 

So either the Poles are just more forgiving people than the Celts or the Germans are just more likable than the English.

 

I am going with the Poles being less bitter personally. Obviously there's something different here.

 

Podolski and Klose aren't "really" Polish though. Klose moved to Germany when he was six (after also probably spending more than 50% of their time before this in France where his father was playing football.), Podolski moved when he was two. How can you expect someone moving that young to have any real feelings  toward a country they've only lived in for a very small amount of their life? Also Podolski's paternal family belonged to the German minority in Upper Silesia before they moved.

 

FIFA can't go around telling people if they have proper citizenship or not.

 

An Algerian moving to France at the age of two, could conceivably grow up identifying himself as an Algerian rather than a Frenchman for a number of racial, religious and social reasons.  A Welsh child growing up in England from the same age is probably not going to have that sort of attachment to his place of birth.  But who the f*** knows.  You'll never be able to draw the line and I'm not sure why you'd want to.

 

I don't want to draw a line. I'm fine with people representing the country they want to on most occasions. (The exception are the Brazilians and so on  that change their nationality only to play at a tournament, not because they feel like they are more that nationality than Brazilian.)

 

In general, I'd probably only want to implement a rule of having to declare a nation when you're young, or not allowing the "five year rule" (most countries have five years before you can become a citizen) to apply to International football.

 

I agree, the real problem here is the five year rule, not the fact that players can choose which of their countries they want to play for. Also the grandfather rule.

 

It might be a good idea to change it to being able to choose either your country of birth or your parent's country

 

What if you like Podolski, only lived two years in your birth country and the rest of your life in another?

 

Okay, never mind actually.

 

England wouldn't be able to call upon the services of the mighty Shola either under my rule. It's obviously crap.

 

It could be sorted by declaring your nation of choice by 18, and being able to choose from the country of your parents, your country of birth, or your country of citizenship. Would at least make it so you can't exploit the five year rule, which is the main problem. Grandparent rule need to go as well, as you said.

 

Seems like a sensible idea, although i imagine it would be hell to keep track of all those "declarations of intent" from 18-year-olds across the world. I could imagine a lot of "yes he did/no he didn't" bickering matches between FAs breaking out since FIFA can't possibly  keep track of every 18-year-old pro in the World.

 

I can't stop myself from breaking up every time I see your avatar by the way. I just wish more people around me knew who Clint Dempsey was so I could show it to them.

[CaliMag]

A Welsh child growing up in England from the same age is probably not going to have that sort of attachment to his place of birth. 

 

You mean like Ryan Giggs?

[CaliMag]

The thing I find so fantastic is that Poles would actually play for Gemrany at all.

 

How many Scots or Irish would play for England? None. I am ethnically Scottish, and eventhough my family has lived in Northumberland and Newcastle for 50 years - none of them would play for England... ever. And this is because of s*** that happened 300 to 500 years ago.

 

Meanwhile the Poles were deemed "subhuman," forced in slave labour and offered free sterilization by the "Master Race" just 60 years ago and yet you have players like Podolski and Klose playing for the Germans.

 

So either the Poles are just more forgiving people than the Celts or the Germans are just more likable than the English.

 

I am going with the Poles being less bitter personally. Obviously there's something different here.

 

I've actually been kind of amazed by that. I know, different situation and all, but if an ethnically Korean player ever played for Japan he'd be crucified in public opinion over here.

 

Same time frame as the Poles BTW. Subjegation by the Japanese is over hundreds of years but obviously culmniated during WWII - similar timeline and yet there they are.

[Kaizero]

A Welsh child growing up in England from the same age is probably not going to have that sort of attachment to his place of birth. 

 

You mean like Ryan Giggs?

 

He was very close to his grandparents, and was apparently very traumatized when they moved when he was six, so they visited almost every weekend and school holidays. It's very understandable that he'd want to represent Wales for his grandparents even if living most of his life in Manchester.

 

Klose was not close with anyone from his area, and lived most of his early years in France before they settled in Germany.

[CaliMag]

Why would the said player care though, if he really saw himself as more Japanese than Korean then surely he'd just laugh at you?

That would never happen though. That's the wierdness.

[chicago_shearer]

A Welsh child growing up in England from the same age is probably not going to have that sort of attachment to his place of birth. 

 

You mean like Ryan Giggs?

 

Well that's my point.  It depends on the loyalties of the individual, not the piece of paper.  Wasn't Michael Owen in the same boat?