Parky vs. Immigration issues in International football caused by modern society

[Cronky]

I don't think you should be restricted to the land of your birth, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

 

I'd say it's okay to play for the country of either parent's birth, but not your grandparents'. That should be tightened up.

 

It also seems fair to play for the land you were brought up in as child, but not the country you emigrated to as an adult. I don't know how easy that would be to regulate. Maybe you should have to prove that you were permanently resident in that country at the age of 10.

[M4]

Was reading through the posts in the World Cup thread and this whole debate is very close to home.

 

It's impossible to make up rigid rules for everyone because every single case is so different. You could take two players with the same history of born in country X and lived for so long in country Y and either could legitimately choose to represent one or the other.

 

Which is exactly what some nations are banking on hoping to recruit players with very thin links.

[Guest ObiChrisKenobi]

None of this would have happened under Hitl... ah nevermind.

 

On a more serious note, I can't believe we're having the discussion about Nationality. If you were born in England, but grow up in another Country since you were 6months, it'd be stupid to force you to play for England.

[Raconteur]

There's the flip side to this debate too:

 

I'm remembering the 2006 World Cup when Australia played Croatia - who fielded three players born in Australia, raised in Australia and their skills honed with Australian taxpayer money through the Australian Institute of Sport. And I felt very strongly that Ante Seric, Josip Simunic and Joey Didiluca should have their Australian passports revoked and banned from re-entering the country...

 

And if I was feeling fascist, maybe even charged with treason

 

[Pandamninator]

TBF Simunic did his best to go and get himself sent off in that game, Poll just wouldn't play along.

[Parky]

BERLIN—Germany's national soccer team has run into a dust-up over the refusal of some of its players to sing the country's national anthem—as if losing its captain to injury weeks before the World Cup wasn't bad enough.

 

In recent warm-up games before the 2010 World Cup begins in South Africa next week, only a handful of Germany's ethnically diverse starting lineup have been singing, or at least lip-synching, as the national hymn, "The Song of the Germans"—a truncated version of the original that began "Deutsch land, Deutschland über alles"—plays before kickoff.

Journal Community

 

The lack of moving lips might have gone unnoticed by most Germans, who since World War II have remained largely dispassionate, and even shy, about most overtly patriotic gestures. That is, until German and World Cup soccer legend Franz Beckenbauer, otherwise affectionately known as "Der Kaiser"—"the emperor"—weighed in earlier this week with rousing disapproval.

 

"All of them should sing the anthem," said Mr. Beckenbauer, 64 years old, who won World Cups as both a player and coach, during a videotaped call-in session Monday organized by the German tabloid Bild-Zeitung. "It can't be that the fans in the stands or watching at home sing along but those on the field don't."

 

11 of the current squad qualify for another nation and 3 have dual passports.

 

If Germany the richest country in Europe starts hoovering up all the upcoming European talent (with all the new freedom of movement in Europe)  how does that leave Poland, Czech, Hungary and the rest?

 

IMO 5 years naturalisation isn't enough to protect the smaller Euro nations and fifa need to look again at the rules.

 

Or in 10 years time when you play Germany you'll be up against a European 11 and it will be legal. Not in the spirit of the game as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

 

 

[Parky]

That poll question is so fair. 

[Guest ObiChrisKenobi]

BERLIN—Germany's national soccer team has run into a dust-up over the refusal of some of its players to sing the country's national anthem—as if losing its captain to injury weeks before the World Cup wasn't bad enough.

 

In recent warm-up games before the 2010 World Cup begins in South Africa next week, only a handful of Germany's ethnically diverse starting lineup have been singing, or at least lip-synching, as the national hymn, "The Song of the Germans"—a truncated version of the original that began "Deutsch land, Deutschland über alles"—plays before kickoff.

Journal Community

 

The lack of moving lips might have gone unnoticed by most Germans, who since World War II have remained largely dispassionate, and even shy, about most overtly patriotic gestures. That is, until German and World Cup soccer legend Franz Beckenbauer, otherwise affectionately known as "Der Kaiser"—"the emperor"—weighed in earlier this week with rousing disapproval.

 

"All of them should sing the anthem," said Mr. Beckenbauer, 64 years old, who won World Cups as both a player and coach, during a videotaped call-in session Monday organized by the German tabloid Bild-Zeitung. "It can't be that the fans in the stands or watching at home sing along but those on the field don't."

 

11 of the current squad qualify for another nation and 3 have dual passports.

 

If Germany the richest country in Europe starts hoovering up all the upcoming European talent (with all the new freedom of movement in Europe)  how does that leave Poland, Czech, Hungary and the rest?

 

IMO 5 years naturalisation isn't enough to protect the smaller Euro nations and fifa need to look again at the rules.

 

Or in 10 years time when you play Germany you'll be up against a European 11 and it will be legal. Not in the spirit of the game as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

 

Parky I'm sorry, but you can say that about any National Team, though unsurprisingly the African Nations belt out their National Anthems. England team only 2 players mutter the words.

[Parky]

BERLIN—Germany's national soccer team has run into a dust-up over the refusal of some of its players to sing the country's national anthem—as if losing its captain to injury weeks before the World Cup wasn't bad enough.

 

In recent warm-up games before the 2010 World Cup begins in South Africa next week, only a handful of Germany's ethnically diverse starting lineup have been singing, or at least lip-synching, as the national hymn, "The Song of the Germans"—a truncated version of the original that began "Deutsch land, Deutschland über alles"—plays before kickoff.

Journal Community

 

The lack of moving lips might have gone unnoticed by most Germans, who since World War II have remained largely dispassionate, and even shy, about most overtly patriotic gestures. That is, until German and World Cup soccer legend Franz Beckenbauer, otherwise affectionately known as "Der Kaiser"—"the emperor"—weighed in earlier this week with rousing disapproval.

 

"All of them should sing the anthem," said Mr. Beckenbauer, 64 years old, who won World Cups as both a player and coach, during a videotaped call-in session Monday organized by the German tabloid Bild-Zeitung. "It can't be that the fans in the stands or watching at home sing along but those on the field don't."

 

11 of the current squad qualify for another nation and 3 have dual passports.

 

If Germany the richest country in Europe starts hoovering up all the upcoming European talent (with all the new freedom of movement in Europe)  how does that leave Poland, Czech, Hungary and the rest?

 

IMO 5 years naturalisation isn't enough to protect the smaller Euro nations and fifa need to look again at the rules.

 

Or in 10 years time when you play Germany you'll be up against a European 11 and it will be legal. Not in the spirit of the game as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

 

Parky I'm sorry, but you can say that about any National Team, though unsurprisingly the African Nations belt out their National Anthems. England team only 2 players mutter the words.

 

It goes against all this 'they identify with the country they live in' bollocks. The clearly don't. 3 of the players Gomez, the turk and one other have 2 passports ffs!!!

 

 

[Guest ObiChrisKenobi]

Yeah, but the reasons you're using aren't unique to Germany. So what if they don't sing the National Anthem (as I said above hardly any nation does these days), so what if they have parents born in other Countries and hold a duel Nationality. Europe has had open boarders for decades now so its to be expected. I can only imagine how you're going to react in 10 years when England have a duel nationality players representing us.

 

 

[Parky]

Sepp Blatter Thinks Too Many Brazilians are Playing for Other Countries

By: Laurie | May 16th, 2008

 

sepp.jpgIt’s not just foreign players in clubs that worry FIFA President Sepp Blatter. It’s also the foreign players in national teams.

 

His biggest concern? Those pesky Brazilians.

 

    Blatter is alarmed by the number of Brazilians who have become eligible to play for a different country after living there as little as two years.

 

    “I am not a prophet, but I would say we could have half the players in the 2014 World Cup (in Brazil) could come from Brazil,” he said Wednesday. “That is why we have to introduce a hurdle which is higher.”

 

    FIFA will ask its 208 member federations to introduce a five-year residency rule at a May 29-30 meeting in Sydney, Australia.

 

Prior to 2004, FIFA rules said that any player could play for any country provided he had never played for another country and was granted citizenship in the new country. This rule was changed in 2004 after Togo naturalized five Brazilians to play in the African Cup of Nations, and three Brazilians became naturalized citizens of Qatar to play on the Qatari team.

 

The new rule said that players must have a “clear connection to that country” if they wished to play for a team outside of the country they were born in. From a 2004 article:

 

    The rules now state a player must either have lived in a country for at least two years, or have a parent or grandparent who was born there.

 

And now Blatter’s position is that even this is too liberal.

 

As much as we like to dismiss anything Sepp Blatter says out of hand, this one has some merit. This isn’t like club play, which, like it or not, has become about fielding the best team you can buy. This is about international play, which, pretty much by definition is about fielding the best players from a given nation.

 

This whole issue of importing players for national team play does bring up some interesting questions, though. Most of these players do come from Brazil, which is essentially an international football factory. The country puts out far more international-level players than can ever play on its own team. Do these players deserve to play at the highest level? Should they be punished because of the country they were born in?

 

But if they are naturalized so that they can play for other countries, what about the players who were actually born in these countries who will be displaced by them? Do they deserve to play for their home countries ahead of imported players?

 

And what about the import of non-Brazilian players, particularly those from developing nations without the strong Brazilian football culture? As an example, Singapore has fielded players from Croatia, Serbia and Nigeria, among others. Should these countries be denied the skills of their native-born players just because those players have been offered a better deal elsewhere?

 

Or is importing talent a good compromise for smaller nations that will never have the population or training infrascructure to home-grow their own players? Does restricting imports penalize small countries?

 

The five-year or family connection rule seems like an interesting compromise. Five years is a long time in a footballing career. Expanding the wait period by this much would discourage players from moving to a new country solely to try to play for a different national team, but it wouldn’t have a huge effect on players who move to a country in their younger years and truly do consider themselves citizens.

 

[Guest ObiChrisKenobi]

Parky, as much as I admired your dogged campaign against Rafa Benetiz, I can't follow this one.

 

The reason there are so many Brazilians around the World is simply because there are far greater glories outside of Brazil for the below average-average Brazilian football than there is in Brazil. Only the most elite players in Brazil make the money, the rest earn as little as £40 a week, which is why they'll travel across the globe to earn more money. (as explained in Futebol: The Brazilian Way of Life)

 

It also goes back to heritage; Portugal and Brazil are historically connected as Brazil was 'discovered' by Portuguese explorers. Which is why, I believe, they can gain a Portuguese Nationality quicker.

 

And what about the import of non-Brazilian players, particularly those from developing nations without the strong Brazilian football culture? As an example, Singapore has fielded players from Croatia, Serbia and Nigeria, among others. Should these countries be denied the skills of their native-born players just because those players have been offered a better deal elsewhere?

 

What Developed football Nations 'stealing' talent from Developing Football Nations? France taking from African Nations/Colonise. It works both ways.

 

The five-year or family connection rule seems like an interesting compromise. Five years is a long time in a footballing career. Expanding the wait period by this much would discourage players from moving to a new country solely to try to play for a different national team, but it wouldn’t have a huge effect on players who move to a country in their younger years and truly do consider themselves citizens.

 

This is what most people are trying to get across. Those who played for Germany yesterday have grown up as Germans with heritage from Poland/Turkey.

[Guest firetotheworks]

Why should moving from Brazil for a better life stop you wanting to play for your own country in the world? Because you're not good enough to get into the Brazil team? Exactly.

[Guest Phil K]

The title of the poll could have been done by the Guardian's editor..

I won't vote because of it.

Look at Muzzy Izzit as an example of the opposite.

Loaded and biased choice.

Should be altered with more choice to be at least SLIGHTLY unbiased.

 

Can't have it both ways you know.

[Parky]

In 2006, the then-head coach of the Mexican national team, Ricardo La Volpe, an Argentine, caused controversy by picking Argentine-born and raised, Guillermo Franco and another foreign-born player, Brazillian, Antonio Naelson, better known as "Sinha" ahead of Cuauhtemoc Blanco, considered by many to be one of the greatest Mexican players of all time.

 

When Sven Goran-Eriksson called up four foreign-born players, including the two mentioned above, to his Mexico squad three years later, goalkeeper, Guillermo Ochoa spoke out:

 

"It's a very delicate situation, there are a lot of Mexicans waiting for a chance in the national team and this makes it more and more difficult for them," he is quoted as saying on the Daily Mail website. "It's obvious that the Mexican player should have better opportunities, so I think the matter of the naturalised players needs more analysis. I don't think I'd like to see 11 naturalised players in the national team."

 

ConclusionThere is no denying the benefits of playing international football. The obvious financial gain, as well as getting the chance to play in major tournaments, which can subsequently lead to more exposure, are strong incentives. There is no doubt that a naturally-gifted Brazillian-born player will also greatly improve the standard of an average team and influence the playing style of those around him.

 

Many believe, however, that living in a country for just five years (in line with FIFA's new "five-year rule") does not make a player worthy of inclusion in a team with which he has no previous connections, family or otherwise.

 

Whatever your opinion on this controversial topic may be, it appears that Sepp Blatter's concerns may be well-founded.

 

Read more at Suite101: Naturalised Footballers: A Growing Trend Around The World http://internationalsoccer.suite101.com/article.cfm/naturalised-footballers#ixzz0qpQcStf2

 

[Parky]

All qualify to play for a country other than Germany.

1) Dennis Aogo

2) Jerome Boateng

3) Serdar Tasci

4) Sami Khedira

5) Marko Marin

6) Mesut Özil

7) Piotr Trochowski

8) Cacao

9) Mario Gomez

10) Miroslav Klose

11) Lukas Podolski

[Parky]

Amauri, the latest case

 

Having completed the process of naturalization, Amauri could be called by coach Marcello Lippi to represent Italy’s 23 man squad for the 2010 World Cup in South Africa. Lippi has left the possibility in the air, after throwing praises about the Juventus player who was born in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.

[Parky]

News just in. Data shows a growing number of talented young players from around Europe choosing to go and live in funky Amsterdam and play for Holland. A spokesman said, "We don't care about countries and shit, we want to play wherever the fuck we want"...

[Guest firetotheworks]

Who are you talking to? 

[Guest ObiChrisKenobi]

News just in. Data shows a growing number of talented young players from around Europe choosing to go and live in funky Amsterdam and play for Holland. A spokesman said, "We don't care about countries and shit, we want to play wherever the fuck we want"...

 

With direct faceless quotes like that you could work for any of the leading newspapers in the Country! Of course which Country is entirely up to you...

[Parky]

Who are you talking to? 

 

News just in. Data shows a growing number of talented young players from around Europe choosing to go and live in funky Amsterdam and play for Holland. A spokesman said, "We don't care about countries and shit, we want to play wherever the fuck we want"...

 

With direct faceless quotes like that you could work for any of the leading newspapers in the Country! Of course which Country is entirely up to you...

 

Do you reckon I made it up?

[Guest ObiChrisKenobi]

Who are you talking to? 

 

News just in. Data shows a growing number of talented young players from around Europe choosing to go and live in funky Amsterdam and play for Holland. A spokesman said, "We don't care about countries and shit, we want to play wherever the fuck we want"...

 

With direct faceless quotes like that you could work for any of the leading newspapers in the Country! Of course which Country is entirely up to you...

 

Do you reckon I made it up?

 

I assume anything anyone posts on the internet without a source is made up to make them look cool. If it was 'News just in' that would mean you've just read it somewhere, so you should have a link at hand.

[Incognito]

Ridiculous poll question tbh.This isn't even the debate!!The debate is whether Germany are stretching the rules to allow Brazilian born and bred Cacau to play for them.As Kezman points out,Poland have also done this as have Middle Eastern nations.

 

It is something I wouldn't be happy about if the English FA started courting the likes of Almunia/Arteta.

 

To call Parky a Fascist,in his views which incidentally I agree with, is frankly disgusting,and obviously doesn't show a high level of intelligence,to resort to a foul level of name calling.

[Kaizero]

Ridiculous poll question tbh.This isn't even the debate!!The debate is whether Germany are stretching the rules to allow Brazilian born and bred Cacau to play for them.As Kezman points out,Poland have also done this as have Middle Eastern nations.

 

It is something I wouldn't be happy about if the English FA started courting the likes of Almunia/Arteta.

 

To call Parky a Fascist,in his views which incidentally I agree with, is frankly disgusting,and obviously doesn't show a high level of intelligence,to resort to a foul level of name calling.

 

You only partly agree with the view he's been putting across, though. Which incidentially also is the part the rest of us also agree with.

[Guest ObiChrisKenobi]

Who called him a Fascist?